(Mailing List Recent Archive)
This web-page allows you to view most posts sent to the jOrgan-User Mailing List from mid-July 2021 onwards, and is read-only. To post a Reply or start a new Topic, you need to be registered with the Mailing List. For instructions on registering and using the Mailing List, click HERE. Your post will normally be sent immediately to all subscribers, but will not appear here until the web-page is updated. This is done manually, and perhaps once a week. Some topics or posts may not appear, if considered not archive material. To contact the Compiler of this web-page, send a post with the Subject Line, “To the jOrgan Link Compiler”.
The main jOrgan-User archive can be accessed HERE, or the jOrgan-Sound archive HERE. If you click on a month, you need to scroll down to see the result. Don’t overlook the Search facility at the left.
SCROLL DOWN TO VIEW THE CURRENT LIST
To view the newest post, click on the coloured text
PAST ARCHIVES (Click to access)
jOrgan website for new users ___Sticky Post
Mac OS 12.5 on M1 processor By Marc-Paul on 2022-07-10____ Issues By David Riggs Most recent post on 2022-07-01 8 replies jOrgan for Mac By lamontquidominique Most recent post on 2022-06-18 3 replies Issue with java By Pascal Collet Most recent post on 2022-06-15 3 replies ANN: Updates to jOrgan InfoBase By JohnR Most recent post on 2022-05-18 1 reply
Installing jOrgan on Raspberry Pi__ By Ken Knollman___Most recent post on 2022-04-07___12 replies
404 NOT FOUND "https://jorgan.info/base/m/MemoryV" : how to store fluidsynth reverb parameters, depending on chosen environment___By Pascal Collet___Most recent post on 2022-04-01___1 reply ___ Enumerate page in InfoBase___By JohnR ___Most recent post on 2022-03-30___2 replies Java 11 work-around___By JohnR___Most recent post on 2022-03-30___4 replies C - C# split in soundfont___By Marc-Paul___Most recent post on 2022-03-15 3 replies __1 Sharing ranks (real pipes) across stops___By_Mark In Powys___ Most recent post on 2022-03-13___3 replies News from SynthFont: Viena and MidiSoundSynth___By JohnR___Most recent post on 2202-03-08___1 reply _ Computers for Windows 11 By J Maher Most recent post on 2022-03-01 15 replies
Successful backend for Windows 10 __By JohnR ___Most recent post on 2022-02-26___4 replies
recording MP3 on mac; piston release MPL By Julie Porter Most recent post on 2022-02-25 7 replies Fluidsynth Element "Interpolate" setting in jOrgan By JohnB Most recent post on 2022-02-24 4 replies
Windows 11___By Marc-Paul___Most recent post on 2022-02-20___5 replies
Midi merger configuration By JohnR Most recent post on 2022-02-17 1 reply Sending midi codes to jorgan from a python program By Alfons Van Daele Most recent post on 2022-02-17 7 replies New jOrgan Recordings By Les Knoll Most recent post on 2022-02-13 3 replies Sound Clips By JohnR Most recent post on 2022-02-11 16 replies Ann: Dixon-inspired disposition By John Dubery Most recent post on 2022-02-10 5 replies MIDI-OX scripts By Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-09 Aria player sforzando/garritan By Jan Flikweert Most recent post on 2022-02-06 23 replies Playing external MIDI files By Craig W Most recent post on 2022-02-04 6 replies External vs internal MIDI: Band Organs By Julie Porter Most recent post on 2022-02-25 5 replies Raw MIDI output from player to loopback By Julie Porter Most recent post on 2022-02-01 5 replies Problems with Fluidsynth Backends on Windows 10 By JohnR Most recent post on 2022-01-31 26 replies Fluidsynth Failure-A tale of Two Computers By Les Knoll Most recent post on 2022-01-29 5 replies Midi Association Announcement regarding Midi 2.0 By John Beach on 2022-01-25 Novation Launchpad and jOrgan by John Beach Most recent post on 2022-01-13 2 replies EAX/Creative Volumescreen by Jan Flikweert Most recent post on 2022-01-09 2 replies Mac OS X High Sierra thru OS XII installation by Marc Allen Most recent post on 2022-01-08 3 replies Output Creative soundfont bankmanager to plugins by Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-08 1 reply play release part of sample with jOrgan by Jan Flikweert Most recent post on 2022-01-06 34 replies St. Paul's disposition by Chris Pearson by Tom Anderson Most recent post on 2022-01-01 4 replies
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR
This website has been created to make it easier for internet users to discover jOrgan and to start using it. Its main pages are HOME, STARTING, ADDING, GALLERY, F.A.Q., THIS SITE and CONTACT.
The web address is https://jorgan.info
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
St. Paul's disposition by Chris Pearson
From Tom Anderson on 2021-12-30 22:19
Wishing a Merry Christmas to all in the group!
I downloaded this disposition a few years ago and really love it!
I worked for the organ builder on the actual pipe organ here in Toronto in 2003.
When I found Chris's disposition of the organ that I rewired and added 11 computers to,
I just had to download it and try it out.
I spend all my free time with it now, slowly adding to the console as parts become
available.
Some day, I hope to take my console with Chris's disposition to St. Paul's church to
compare side by side. It will be exciting to see how close we can get to the original !
When we finished rebuilding the organ in the church, my boss asked my sister, Elizabeth
Anderson, (who is a pipe organ performance major from the University of Toronto and
assistant organist at another Toronto church) to play the first performance to show off
our work at adding computer controll to this organ which was originally built in 1914.
Many thanks to Chris and the other people involved in creating this disposition.
Tom Anderson in Toronto
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Chris Pearson on 2021-12-31 01:50
Hi, Tom
Thank you.
I would be really interested in feedback about my disposition when you compare it, and
I hope you will, to the real thing. I processed all the ranks myself, something which
became a labour of love, taking months. Followed by months of swapping ranks in and out,
adjusting volumes and playing loads of music.
I have had the Durham Cathedral disposition (on my Mediafire download site) vetted by
someone who has tuned that organ and just a few ranks required re-attenuating, so it
will be very interesting to found out how near the St Paul's compares.
But what would be the icing on the cake for me, is if you could make a recording of the
Middle C note of each rank of the St Paul's organ.
And the cherry on the top, a reverberation recording.
Regards
Chris Pearson
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc Allen on 2021-12-31 08:15
Hi Chris P
I was not aware of your disposition and it sounds really exciting.
I have downloaded everything and corrected all the errors I could.
I have two left... they may be the same error.
The Main Console and Effects Console want a file... and I can't determine what that is. HELP!
Cheers & Thankyou
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Chris Pearson on 2022-01-01 00:26
Hi, Marc-Paul
If you cannot see a visual representation of the stops, which I think is what you are
alluding to, then you need the "skin" file,
https://www.mediafire.com/file/z75v8pzlx2229xn/St_Paul%2527s_Skin.zip/file.
Regards
Chris Pearson
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc Allen on 2022-01-01 01:54
Thanks Chris...
...I have never used a skin so I downloaded all those graphics files
individually. I did what you recommended and set the zip file to those two elements and
I can see the beautiful instrument.
Thank you so much for educating me.
Cheers
Marc-Paul MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Output Creative soundfont bankmanager to plugins
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-08 00:58
Hi all,
In earlier posts I learned that storing sf2 in Creative Soundfont bank manager is
a very good solution, is even considered the best.
Is there a way to use VST plugins with the output of that creative soundfont bank
manager?
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-08 14:10
Jan, I am not certain about soundfonts loaded by SFBM and VST plugins. I know that
the VST plugins have dropdown windows to select "input" and "output." In jOrgan,
the specification is Synth A or Synth B. As to bank number and preset, I don't know.
John Beach MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Mac OS X High Sierra thru OS XII installation
From Marc Allen on 2022-01-08 05:57
Mac OS X High Sierra thru OS 12
Download:
Java for your Mac OS X XI XII from java.com. Install.
Download:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-bundle/3.21/
Open the .dmg and copy the 4 files. Make a folder in “Public” entitled “jOrgan3211”
without spaces. (No spaces in case you would like to start jOrgan from a command line.)
Paste the 4 files into that folder.
Make an alias of jorgan.jar and drag it to the desktop if you like.
Stay in the folder in “Public/jOrgan3211” and open the folder named “lib”.
Inside that folder you will see files with several different file extensions.
Hover your cursor over each file and get the RIGHT click or double tap menu and select
“Open”. The system will open a dialog box saying “filename is from an unidentified
developer. Are you sure you want to open it?”. Click Open. You will do this for each
file in the “lib” folder EXCEPT the .h file extension. You will get dialog boxes that
say “The Java JAR file x could not be launched”. Just click OK on all the small boxes
that come up.
Now go back to the jOrgan3211 folder and double click on jorgan.jar or your alias.
You will get a dialog box “jorgan.jar can’t be opened because it is from an unidentified
developer. Click OK. Open System Preferences and then open Security & Privacy/General.
Click Open Anyway. Another dialog box will say the previous again… click Open.
You now have jOrgan working, taking a few special steps when making or modifying a
disposition. (I will explain in a moment.)
Start jOrgan and click open: Navigate to Public/jOrgan3211/dispositions and select t
the top find “fluidsynth”. Click fluidsynth once and look at Properties in the window
below. Find “audio driver” and open the window next to it and select “coreaudio”.
Now go to the window immediately above it and select your Audio Device like “built in
audio”.
Then come down to “Gain” and replace what is there with “1”. Find “Keyboard” in the top
list and click once. In Properties where it says Input, open the dialog on the right
and select your midi keyboard interface. Now go to the top and click on File/Save or
the save icon. Close jOrgan.
Open jOrgan again and go to File/Recent and you should see your fluid-example.disposition.
Click on that.
The disposition will open with Stop 0 x’ed. You should have sound thru your selected
audio device.
There are a number of dispositions of fine quality available for download. If you try
one remember this. When you enter Construct mode to set your midi interface and Fluidsynth
audio driver etc… save and then EXIT jOrgan. Then start jOrgan and load the disposition
you just worked on. This is a must each time you go into construct mode! Otherwise you
will have to “Force Quit” and restart jOrgan.
At this point in using jOrgan anyone in the forum could most likely answer questions about
workings and dispositions.
The only way to achieve multi-channel audio is multiple instances of fluidsynth with
attached different USB/Firewire sound cards. Which works superbly up to the 3 stereo pairs
that I have achieved.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-01-08 11:14
Marc Allen via jOrgan-user wrote:
"Mac OS X High Sierra thru OS 12"
Hi Marc-Paul,
Thank you very much for that detailed explanation. With your permission, I plan to
include a link to this thread and place it on the jORGAN DISCOVERY website, or even
place the content on the Tutorials page of the jOrgan InfoBase, and refer the link
to that.
I think that the download link for jOrgan should finish with the file name:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-bundle/3.21/jorgan-3.21.1.dmg
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc Allen on 2022-01-08 11:30
Of course JohnR... my intention was for it's use in anyway helpful to MAC users.
You may use it however you like.
I am now in the process of downloading different dispositions to possibly make a
recommendation for a first disposition for a "beginner" .
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-01-08 17:16
JohnR wrote:
"I think that the download link for jOrgan should finish with the file name"
My suggestion doesn't work, because it's wrong!
It should have been:
Download:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-bundle/3.21/jOrgan-3.21.1.dmg
Best wishes,
JohnR MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
EAX/Creative Volumescreen
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-08 20:04
JohnB wrote about: "EAX/Creative Volumescreen"
Hi all,
Which actual new soundcard - I suppose of creative- has the best support for a Soundfont
bankmanager and has the best processing of that output?
Can the output be redirected to f.e. REAPER, Mulab or any other Digital Audio Workstation?
Ranking the several "back-ends" I think:
1. Soundfont Bankmanager
2. Fluidsynth
3. Aria
4. Linuxsampler
Why Soundfont Bankmanger? Because I think it is the best.
I did a search, I googled, but it is hard to find info.
My actual soundcard supports it, but I think it is limited to 16 instruments for Creative
Synth A and 16 instruments for Creative Synth A+B. Loading a large soundfont and large
loops does not work good. I loaded 171 stops from bank 0-0 tot bank 1-44 to Creative
Synth A. Changing stops and playing notes goes through Generic sound, with channel property
greaterEqual 0 in the rank. The midi-messages are:
set 176, set 121,
set 176, set 0, set 0
set 192, set 3,
set 144, set pitch, set100
set 128, set pitch,
set 176, set 123,
In the soundfont bank-manager you can choose a midi-device. For jOrgan that is not used.
The Soundfont-bankmanager tab midi-devices states: Each Soundfont-Device(Creative
Synth A+B) can be loaded with its own soundfont-bank. Each soundfont-device (Creative
Synth A+B) has 16 MIDI-channels accessible
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc Allen on 2022-01-09 04:07
Hi Jan…
…from the earliest days of jOrgan, I used multiple soundblaster
cards with multiple sound fonts to overcome the memory limitations of the
soundfont bankmanager. I still have a windows XP computer with 4 soundblaster
cards in it. JOrgan can see the different address’ of the cards. The Creative
Soundblaster drivers will no longer allow multiple instances… I have crashed
several computers/OS trying. I used multiple X-fi cards later.. 3 was the limit.
I prefer to use Qsynth now because of hosting multiple soundfonts at a time
with the ablility to output to multiple audio systems. jOrgan see’s Qsynth
without difficulty.
I don’t know if this helpful at all.
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-09 04:16
Marc-Paul wrote: ” I prefer to use Qsynth”
Marc-Paul,
Thanks for your reply. I will have a look at Qsynth. I hope this has a windows
version. The reason to use soundfont bank-manager is the quality of sound.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl. MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ann: Dixon-inspired disposition
From John Dubery on 2022-01-11 16:03
Hi all,
Just before Christmas I posted about a couple of new dispositions of mine now
available to all, but I'm not sure many people noticed.
Well, I now have an update for one of them ... my Dixon-inspired disposition:
"Some small and mid-sized instruments for jorgan inspired by the writings of George Dixon
For some years I have been fascinated by the design of small organs, i.e. how to get the
maximum of variety and effect from limited resources. Some of the writings and organ
designs of George Dixon (1870-1950) address this topic, and provide useful thoughts
and ideas. In the present jorgan disposition I provide a selection of instruments based
on Dixon's writings."
So - 2 updated files - one with the disposition (incl. sf2), one with a few MIDI files for it:
DixonInspired r2178.zip -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1szi3eIztIdEF75y7ooUopo8E6yTCWvgD/view?usp=sharing
DixonInspired-MIDIFiles r2173.zip -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GVnwS7fCNjxVRC3K4iFUwKcudL-aWpRa/view?usp=sharing
Changes include:
* making clearer how to change between the instruments provided by the disposition
* add the option of a Contra Dulciana as the Great double in place of a Double
Salicional for the 2 applicable instruments
* swap one sample in the extended Trumpet rank
* remove a couple of unused ranks from the soundfont to save a little space
* add a few more MIDI files
-----------
For those who missed the original post, here are the details of the other new
disposition:
"A virtual rebuild of the organ of Golcar Providence Methodist Church
While tinkering at Chris Pearson's jorgan version of the organ of Golcar PMC, it occurred
to me that a virtual rebuild of the instrument could be done in the style of George Dixon.
Dixon did the design for an economical rebuild (well, relatively economical at least) of the
organ of St. James, West Hartlepool; his purpose was to increase the capabilities of
the instrument without making it significantly bigger or causing excessive expense.
Since the Golkar instrument is similar in many ways to the original state of the West
Hartlepool instrument, it seemed to me that a virtual rebuild of the Golcar organ similar in
style to Dixon's rebuild of West Hartlepool would be an interesting exercise - and should
give an modest sized instrument of significant capability."
Just the one file with the disposition and sf2 this time (no MIDI files):
GolcarRebuild r2161.zip
https://drive.google.com/file/d/118ORXDfFMWavbGFpCXARtRcHsGTiiSV4/view?usp=sharing
All for now,
John Dubery
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Dubery on 2022-02-06 01:04
All,
At a risk of self-commendation ...
If a "box of ranks" with a British feel is desired, you might also like to have a
play with the soundfont for my Dixon-inspired disposition. I suspect it would have
most of what you are looking for, and it's easy to load another soundfont alongside
to fill in gaps.
If anyone tries that I'd be most interested to hear of how you get on - and any
suggestions for improving the sounds in the soundfont too (you never know, I
might end up tweaking the soundfont as a result). I'd also be interested in audio
files giving a direct comparison between that soundfont and H v4 if anyone feels
like putting in the effort (and also a RAM/CPU usage comparison perhaps).
And all my soundfonts are generated by scripts, so it's simple for me to make
adaptions if there's a good reason.
cheers
John
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-06 15:45
Hi John,
Thank you for your Dixon-inspired disposition - actually a collection of small
organs drawing on the one large soundfont. We should all be grateful for this
excellent addition to the wealth of VPO's which jOrgan users have created over
the years (now over 120, I think).
As I have explained to you by separate email, I am unable to play it on my home
console, which uses the RPi 3B+, as its RAM is only 1 GB. However, I have tried
your work on my RPi 4B with its RAM of 4 GB which I use as a Desktop, along with
a MIDI keyboard, and of course there is now no problem. I think it is a very good
example of British organ sound.
We all know the saying that the best stop in the organ is the room. For that reason,
I think I would increase somewhat the reverberation you have at times used, for
example in the MIDI recording of Karg-Elert's "O Gott du frommer Gott". It's a
lovely piece of music. Thank you for all those fine jOrgan MIDI recordings.I have
already played a number of them at my home console, using the Norden Schnitger VPO.
The Bach Dorian Toccata and Fugue is particularly dramatic. It's a piece which
gripped me as a youth still at school, listening to the playing of Anton Heiller
on some Philips recordings in the days before stereo.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Les Knoll on 2022-02-07 02:08
"At a risk of self-commendation ...
If a "box of ranks" with a British feel is desired, you might also like to have a
play with the soundfont for my Dixon-inspired disposition. I suspect it would have
most of what you are looking for, and it's easy to load another soundfont alongside
to fill in gaps."
The only condemnation I would make is you didn't tell us where to find your Dixon
soundfont. (Apparently SOME people know) I am assuming by the description it is a
soundfont, not a HW sample set. In my 3/23 (at the moment) theater organ, I mix and
match soundfont ranks kinda like George Wright did with pipes in his Pasadena studio
WurliTzer, except with much less grunt work! Trying out some ranks from the Dixon
soundfont would be fun. I won't be adding harmonic couplers, however. To each their own.
Les Knoll
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul 2022-02-07 05:46
Hi John...
...I downloaded and installed your very nice instrument on the Mac
OS X 10.14.6 Mojave that I use primarily for jOrgan and Hauptwerk 4. It is an i5
intel based system with 16gb RAM.
CPU usage for your soundfont and H4 is almost the same with coupled manuals and pedals
playing foundation stops and oboe... equivalent registration on H4. One core of the i5
ranges between 24% and 60%. The other three cores (2 are virtual) are 2% to 18% playing
Widor 5 last mvt.
RAM usage is 4150mb system
4800mb jOrgan
5800mb H4
6450mb both... which is how I would normally use it.
I must point out that I moved to the Mac Mini OS X i5 computers with 16gb ram and SSD's
because they outperform my PC's with an i7. Hauptwerk technical papers indicate this is
because of the way system interrupts are handled. So to restate... and older Mac Mini
with ram and storage upgrade does a better job than a newer more powerful PC with the
same ram and storage.
Thankyou for the wonderful instrument!!!
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Dubery on 2022-02-10 09:18
Marc-Paul,
Many thanks
John MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Novation Launchpad and jOrgan
From JohnB on 2022-01-13 00:55
Could someone on this forum who uses Launchpad with jOrgan inform us of its particular
usefulness with respect to programmable input that is more advantageous in using jOrgan
than, for example, a touchscreen monitor, given a parity or equality of accessibility
when playing?
I am trying to assemble a readily portable organ set-up that is as "user friendly" for
the organist as possible which can be used for funerals and weddings and, perhaps,
occasionally, in services but which is easy to store away in a closet for times when
the organ space is needed for other purposes such as Christmas programs, etc. What I
need to know is whether Launchpad allows for the pairing of combination pistons in
jOrgan to the pushpads on the Launchpad, making it more practicable and certain to use
than a touchscreen.
In the user's experience, what other beneficial aspects of the Launchpad are applicable
to jOrgan?
Thank you, in advance, for your input.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc Allen on 2022-01-13 03:38
Hi John...
...I have tested three devices. The Korg NanoKey2, the Novation
LaunchPad mini, and the MidiPlus pad.
There is a video on YouTube of a French Jazz Pianist and Organist that has keyboards
with a set of LaunchPads around the top of the keyboards... and I was intrigued by
that arrangement.
While it is possible that I may use something like that when I get the Rodgers 605
I gutted and am installing the Midi Botique midi encoders... I prefer the Korg NanoKey2
because of it's smaller size... and it sort of looks like a keyboard, so positioning a
finger to push a button is easy. It is small enough to put above the Swell on my Allen 705D.
My Allen has lost its custom mixture capability (3rd computer) because the eproms
suffered some kind of event that made them non-functional. I have already midified
the Allen and am considering making a 4 manual instrument out of the Allen and
Rodgers... that's why I looked into this.
Link to video:
https://youtu.be/o7pPGzUT7Os
It will be interesting to see if anyone else responds.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-13 14:08
Marc Allen, thanks for replying. So far, you are the only person who has given any input.
I was curious if there might be a device that was quicker to make stop or piston changes
and more conveniently positionable than the touchscreen monitor. That is all.
John Beach MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Aria player sforzando/garritan
From Jan F on 2022-01-22 19:04
Hi all,
In early days we compared Fluidsynth, Aria and Linuxsampler.
The last day I worked with the aria VSTi instrument players Sforzando and Garritan,
jOrgan and REAPER. I learned some interesting things.
License
Sforzando is free. Garritan is based on Sforzando and has some additions. I contacted
the Dutch reseller to ask if the Garritan vsti instrument player is free for personal
non-commercial use.
Memory
With Garritan you can assign 16 instruments to each plugin. With sforzando one
instrument for each plugin.
The same disposition took 3,3 gb with sforzando and 2 gb for Garritan. In both
cases reverberate consumes 1 gb.
New things
Midi message CC71 mutes an instrument. With sforzando REAPER assigns 16 instruments.
Each midi track needs a virtual midi input with it's own midi channel. Additional
you need to assign the same midi channel in the track. And you should tell the
midi-track to allow control midi. Again in jOrgan control messages are assigned to a
midi channel in the generic sound. The midi control messages in your rank must use
the same channel. So the message in the rank set 191,set 71, set 100 and set 191,
set 7,set 100 has also the channel 15.
Stable
Using a large disposition. The performance in both cases is very good. I had 2/3
times a hanging note at the start.
Changing sfz/volume
The volume of each stop can be controlled from jOrgan and with the SFZ file. This
sfz file you can modify in the plugin and hear the result.
Reverb/Ambience
Because I use Reverberate2 for reverb and chorus I did not try this.
Sound
This is a matter of taste, using volume for each stop in each sfz/gig/sf2. At this
moment it is hard to edit gig files from Linuxsampler. Gigedit crashes after the
command save file, without really saving it. In Aria I tempered the mixtures and
the reeds. I convert sf2's using Extreme Sample Converter.
If needed I can make a video how to do this.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-23 00:05
Jan stated the following:
"New things
Midi message CC71 mutes an instrument. With sforzando REAPER assigns 16 instruments.
Each midi track needs a virtual midi input with it's own midi channel. Additional
you need to assign the same midi channel in the track. And you should tell the
midi-track to allow control midi. Again in jOrgan control messages are assigned to
a midi channel in the generic sound. The midi control messages in your rank must use
the same channel. So the message in the rank set 191,set 71, set 100 and set 191,
set 7,set 100 has also the channel 15.
Changing sfz/volume
The volume of each stop can be controlled from jOrgan and with the SFZ file. This
sfz file you can modify in the plugin and hear the result.
Sound
This is a matter of taste, using volume for each stop in each sfz/gig/sf2. At this
moment it is hard to edit gig files from Linuxsampler. Gigedit crashes after the
command save file, without really saving it. In Aria I tempered the mixtures and
the reeds. I convert sf2's using Extreme Sample Converter”.
My comments on the above:
I am not sure what the CC71 muting of an instrument has to do with normal play.
It is a fact that a MIDI channel can only have one preset (one instrument or
several layered instruments in the preset) program change assigned to that channel.
However, jOrgan has the ability to take the layering concept which is, normally,
only allowed in the preset of the soundbank(font) and apply it, as tracks to a
single midi channel, a kind of subset of the midi channel. This is a unique feature,
since MIDI sequencer programs have the limitation of 16 MIDI channels per synth and
only ONE preset per MIDI channel. For much organ music, these 16 or 32 (synths A
and B in Creative Labs soundcards) MIDI channels would be adequate for a 3-division
organ (swell, great and pedal), allowing 5 stops per division if the limit is 16
channels, or 10 if the limit is 32.
The divisions of the organ are assigned a MIDI channel in the Customizer of jOrgan,
so all controller changes are sent on the MIDI channel which is assigned to that division.
Regarding the volume of individual stops, as in a pipe organ where the volume of
a stop is intrinsic to the construction of the pipe and set by the voicer, in the
sample pool, instrument pool or preset pool, it is possible to set the volume of
a stop, preset or program change in Polyphone. I have found that the best method
is to regulate the volume in the sample pool (Tools>Sample>Change Volume), setting
the samples to reflect 6dB attenuation per octave by starting at an arbitrary
percentage for the lowest bass wave file (say, 70 per cent) and decreasing 10% for
the samples in each Octave higher from MIDI note #36 at 60%, to MIDI note #96 at 10%.
Notes #108 and #120 are, both, at 5%.
I have found that the use of dB values in the attenuation parameter line of the
editor in the Instrument Pool (6.0, 12.0, 18.0, 24.0 etc., per octave) was not
satisfactory and caused excessively low volume when playing in jOrgan. I have used
it in the Preset pool on such things as a Dulciana Celeste (or other Celeste stops
with two ranks), assigning a 30% Attenuation, due to the layering
Having all divisions under expression achieves the goal of controlling the volume of
the division and the same control can be had with CC7.
If the organ were small, the soundfont could contain only one stop, that is one
soundfont per each stop in the organ. However, the concept of the Swell Box is
that all the ranks in the swell division are subject to the changes of the swell
shades, increasing or decreasing the perceived loudness. The volume of the sound
at each pipe, of course, remains constant. You do have the choice of referencing
(or not) the stops you want to reflect changes in expression or volume.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan F on 2022-01-23 00:29
JohnB wrote:"I am not sure what the CC71 muting of an instrument has to do with normal play"
That is on one hand a technical point. Cutting off and losing a midi message with toggling
on a coupler is not the correct behavior of couplers. Muting is the correct way. That has
all to do with normal playing. Keep a note pressed, toggle coupler on, keep the same note
pressed and toggle coupler on. Then you should hear that note.
On the other hand there seems to me a difference between:
1.muting
2. put volume at zero
3. and simply do not send note on/off to a instrument, a stop.
Simply muting a instrument in Aria prevents using it by mistake and make shore it does nothing.
I differ from John regarding changing attenuation and fiddling parameters. My experience is
that samples/instruments/preset do not need much parameters. Do not overload your computer
with a heavy number of parameters. Please! Keep it simple.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-23 00:32
I believe that CC71 is, actually, the Frequency Cutoff which can have an effect of
muting, but it reduces the top-end frequencies. For example, each sample or note,
per octave, would have to be regulated (set value) individually and proportionately
per octave. I tried that. It so changes the character of the tonality of a stop
(which would never happen in a real, pipe organ) that it is unidentifiable. In other
words you could take a diapason tone and, by the use of Frequency Cutoff, so reduce
the harmonic structure that it sounded like a flute, open or stopped. It is annoying
to get into the possibilities of changes that electronics can effectuate which are
multifarious and inconsistent with the historical structure of the pipe organ.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan F on 2022-01-23 01:01
JohnB wrote: “I believe that CC71 is, actually, the Frequency Cutoff”
John,
That could be possible be the default behavior. However in Garritan Aria Player
this has another meaning.
See; Directory of GPO 5 instrument patches (garritan.com)
MIDI CC#70–81: one controller per registration slot to enable or disable that stop
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-23 19:12
Jan, the Directory of GPO 5 instrument patches (garritan.com), refers to a single
ARIA player instrument slot (plays up to 12 stops at once). Is an "instrument slot"
the equivalent of a single MIDI channel?
It, also, refers to "one controller per registration slot." Is the "registration
slot" the same as the "instrument slot?" Are these the equivalents of MIDI CHANNEL
(instrument slot) and TRACKs (registration slot), in the same way that jOrgan
effectuates the sending of Note On/Note Off messages on a single MIDI Channel to
multiple Stops (instruments (single)or presets (multiple or layered).
Since the wave file (sample) is the fundamental element in a soundfont which is acted
upon by any, or all of the controllers that are given values to effectuate its playback
and sound quality, the Key press sends a note/on message on one MIDI channel to as many
stops as are engaged or activated in a division, or which are coupled to that division
from another division. Couplers are like switches in a Channel, allowing note-on/note-off
messages to play the notes of activated/engaged stops in divisions that have different
channel numbers. A "registration slot" (seemingly) would be all the stops that are
engaged to respond to note-on/note-off messages (whether on the division MIDI Channel
(single channel) or by couplers which allow those messages to activate playback of stops
in divisions having other MIDI channel numbers.
The range of Continuous Controllers ( https://anotherproducer.com/online-tools-for-musicians
/midi-cc-list/) given at (See; Directory of GPO 5 instrument patches (garritan.com)) states
"one controller per registration slot" CC 50-61,70-81, and 36-48. CC 80 to 83 are the On/Off
Controllers. The description for CC 70 is indefinite, "usually controls the 'way' a sound is
produced." The term "way" is too vague. How does it alter the playing of the wave file that
is assigned to a key(s)? Other controllers in the same range are filters, shaping the sound
from attack to release and filtering the sound by frequency cutoff, etc., affecting the tonality.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-24 03:07
JohnB wrote: 'Is an "instrument slot" the equivalent of a single MIDI channel?'
John,
More clear is the next link:
Controls and MIDI controllers (garritan.com)
https://usermanuals.garritan.com/GPO5/Content/controls.htm
OpenMute (CC#71)
This is a toggle switch that allows you to add a virtual mute to an instrument.
For brass instruments, it acts as a standard brass mute; for strings, it changes
the sound to a sordino tone.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-24 12:14
Jan, these are the same as the RPN (registered parameter numbers) or MIDI
Continuous Controllers. The fact is that CC# messages sent on the MIDI channel
assigned to a division would affect all of the stops that are engaged in that
division since these are channel messages.
That is why I asked whether the instrument slot was the equivalent of a single
MIDI channel. If they are a subset (tracks) of the Midi channel, they will, all,
be affected by the continuous controller values sent in messages on that channel.
I have a MIDI sequencer program that, functionally, establishes the hierarchy of
MIDI Track Type, Port, Channel, Patch (program change, preset, stop, etc.), Volume,
Panning, Transposition, Transposition Mode, Velocity,Choice of any of the 128 MIDI
Controllers, Bank Select MSB, Bank Select LSB. What it will not allow, when tracks
are assigned the same MIDI channel number is the assignment of a different Patch,
preset, or program change. That is, if the channel is set to one, and multiple
tracks are made assigned to channel one, the patch that is assign to one track is
assigned to all the tracks having the MIDI channel 1. So, this feature in jOrgan
of allowing multiple, individually different, instrument tracks to receive note-on/
note-off messages and channel messages through a single midi channel is unique.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-24 18:33
JohnB wrote: "fact is that CC# messages sent on the MIDI channel assigned to a division
would affect all of the stops that are engaged in that division since these are channel
messages".
John,
Your last two posts are not clear to me. So I will study them. To keep it easy let us
forget the instruments which Garritan sells.
Each instance of Garritan (standalone/vst) has 16 slots. In each slot you can choose
a sfz file or a preset from a bank from a sf2 file. Each slot is assigned to a channel
of one midi input device. Additional you assign a channel for each slot to send control
messages. This can be all the same of each slot or each channel can have his own channel
to receive cc's.
Even using the "crescendo" (quick change of stops assignd to my expression pedal) works
perfect. There is no way stops are messing up, or getting wrong stops.
Probably I make a short video how I did it.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-25 01:04
Jan, I assume that by "Garritan (standalone/vst)” you mean the ARIA Player application
which comes with the instruments they sell, such as the Pipe Organ, Orchestra, etc.
I, also, assume that the ARIA Player is a piece of software which, not only tells the
audio hardware what to play and how to play it, but it overcomes the hardware
limitation of 16, hard-wired MIDI Channels which output MIDI messages to the single
track (in the case of hardware) or multiple (in the case of software) tracks.
The structure of the MIDI Protocol, that is the order, in which the parts of a MIDI
Track Type are selectable, is PRE-fixed. Track TYPE is first=MIDI, and that
automatically assigns the PORT=1 (which can be changed to any of the numbered ports
or virtual MIDI cables that are available. Next, in permissible order, are Velocity
(Key Pressure) and Transposition settings (this affects whether a MIDI note number will
play concert pitch (8' organ stop or pianoforte pitch), or some transposed value in
semitones or octaves. This means that Key Press/Release (Note-ON/Note-OFF) of the
specific MIDI note number (its value or length in time) and any semitone deviation,
plus or minus with respect to Transposition (Mode) are enabled, software, setting
the hardware environment. Next is the MIDI CHANNEL=1 (or whichever of 16 or 32 or
more, if so many soundcards are installed). After the MIDI CHANNEL is selected,
the Patch or Preset or Program Change can be selected. After that is selected, any
of the 128 Registered Parameter-Numbered, Continuous Filters can be selected and their
values set. In my sequencer program, these are limited to two , defaults, REVERB and
CHORUS, but (still limited to two RPNs) any two of the 128 total can be selected at a
given time. I am not sure if the settings for each of these RPNs are saved if a
different set (2) of selections is made. It seems logical that they should be, but
I have not created a .mid file with multiple RPN settings and changes to see if this
capability exists.
Most of the settings which affect quality of sound are made in the instruments of the
soundfonts, themselves, and don't need additional changes in values in the tracks of
the .mid file.
The concept of a MIDI CHANNEL and its CHANNEL messages being limited to single,
hard-wired transmission is overcome by the capability to multiplex the output of this
single CHANNEL to the inputs of multiple instrument tracks, by software such as jOrgan.
So the concept becomes: the CHANNEL is assigned (number), but outputs to multiple,
instrument-assigned tracks. That is the track-instrument assignment is independent of
the MIDI CHANNEL number, but relative to it. Fundamentally, this is comparable to one
main MIDI controller outputting to a series of daisy-chained (hard-wired, MIDI Cables,
with 5-pin DIN connectors) MIDI instruments of different types. I suppose this allows
one person to play an entire orchestra if he so desires. The value of such economy
might be debatable!
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-25 01:45
JohnB wrote:"Jan, I assume that by "Garritan (standalone/vst) you mean
the ARIA Player application"
John,
Good point! With Garritan (standalone/vst) I mean the program you can download,
install and use for free here:
https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360037425313-ARIA-Player-Version-
1-959-Installer
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-25 04:55
I wrote: ”OpenMute (CC#71)
This is a toggle switch that allows you to add a virtual mute to an instrument.
For brass instruments, it acts as a standard brass mute; for strings, it changes
the sound to a sordino tone.”
John,
It is very clear: “Mute CC#71”.
The cause of this discussion is that there is a possibility to use jOrgan with
sforzando or Garritan Aria VSTi player. It seems to me amazing. You should expect
excitement. Instead of that we discuss the question if CC71 in Garritan Aria
player acts as toggle on/off and should we use that.
When I have a player which accepts cc71 to mute a stop then I try, I use that.
I am wide minded (do not know the correct words).
It is doubtful whether muting a stop makes sense.
It is also doubtful whether using set 176, set 7, set 0 to 127 is needed
in a rank using Aria.
Searching what causes the slightest duty of memory and processor, what gives
the best sound, what gives a stable disposition all possibilities causes me
to try all options, including CC71.
It is a personal choice to use this details. That is one of the pro’s from
jOrgan: You can customize a disposition, you need to do that.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-01-25 08:47
Jan Flikweert wrote:
"The cause of this discussion is that there is a possibility to use jOrgan with
sforzando or Garritan Aria VSTi player. It seems to me amazing. You should expect
excitement. Instead of that we discuss the question if CC71 in Garritan Aria
player acts as toggle on/off and should we use that."
Jan,
Your frustration is completely understandable. A new, further use for jOrgan is
something I think we should find exciting. It means that for those people who feel
that the release sounds of certain pipes, especially reeds, are important, jOrgan
can make use of the capabilities of the Aria sound engine to reproduce them.
I don't share that feeling about release sounds, because I don't think they serve
any useful musical purpose - at least to warrant all the extra complication. But
I certainly feel excitement about furthering the usefulness of this amazing jOrgan
program.
The discussion has taken the course it has, simply because of words and language.
My Concise Oxford English Dictionary gives three uses of the word, "mute". The
first and most used, means simply, "silent". As when we mute the loudspeaker on
our computer. The second use is to muffle a sound, especially with regard to
musical instruments. The third use is unrelated to sound, and is very specialized,
being applied to birds when they defecate.
JohnB reacted they way he did, because he had in mind the first use of the word.
But of course, it was the second use of the word which the Aria people had in mind.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-25 13:26
JohnR., Thanks for giving the different connotations of the word "mute." I did
infer from what Jan said that he was using the CC71 in the same way one would use
the drawstop to engage or disengage the stop and allow or prevent its sounding.
I had not really understood why one would do that in jOrgan, nor was I certain
that the CC71 was the Frequency Cutoff which can be set to perform both of the
first two connotations of "mute." If the Frequency Cutoff is set low enough,
the sound can be completely muted, but, seemingly, that would never be done in
the instrument of a soundfont since it would not be able to speak at all.
I have instruments in organ soundfonts and stops in a jOrgan disposition with the
names, Muted Violin, Muted Viola and Muted Cello. The first two have the Italian
term "Sorda." The aspect of muting is intrinsic in the harmonic structure of the
sound. The fact is that the MPL used for the Swell Expression given by Paul
Stratman several years ago mutes the highest, treble frequencies as it decreases
the volume. This is, probably, comparable to what ARIA player does.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-25 18:29
JohnB wrote: ‘Thanks for giving the different connotations of the word "mute." ‘
And JohnR wrote: ’The first and most used, means simply, "silent" ‘
Hi all,
That makes it clear. Of course I do not mean cutoff. And of course if it is the same
as CC 7 then the use of "mute" meaning "silence" makes no sense.
To make it visible. I have 150 stops loaded. That needs 3.3 gb. memory and 25% of the
processor load without playing and them all toggled off. Toggling stops on/off does
not differ. I am interested in a way to let the unused stops not use memory and not
use the processor.
I have a mix of dutch/german: "De sprache is een zwerige zagge."
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-25 20:05
Ja, die Sprache ist eine schwierige Sache. A person who can not speak is called
a "mute" or "dumb" in English. In French, of course, there is aspirate "h" and
mute "h."
Are there stops in real pipe organs where the physical device of an instrument mute
can be applied to muffle the normal sound of the stop? Given the con"trap"tions
that are associated with the theatre organ, I could imagine that there are, but the
mechanical engineering needed to do so would be expensive. I think the easiest way
of doing this in the soundfont would be to have two different instruments using the
same samples and setting frequency cutoff for the one to affect the muting (muffling)
of the instrument or having the samples of a muted instrument as a separate preset
and a separate stop in the disposition.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-25 21:44
"The fact is that the MPL used for the Swell Expression given by Paul Stratman several years ago mutes the
highest, treble frequencies as it decreases the volume. This is, probably,
comparable to what ARIA player does."
John,
sForzando aria player uses CC71 in that way, cut-off higher frequencys not
to prevent noise but to change the sound. A Muted Viola is created by
narrowing the mouths of the pipes. I should say when an organ has no muted
stops, do not create them this way. When an organ has muted stops just
record them.
https://organstops.com/old/m/MutedViola.html
I suggest I perform frequency analyze with Garritan and sForzando. In case of
jOrgan MPL: [Set 176-191,set 71, set x] Changing the value x from 0 to 127
should clarify the case.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-25 22:47
I proposed a test.
Hi all,
Adding only CC71 to engaging a rank and changing 3e value from 0 to 127 does
nothing. I think CC 71 alone does nothing and certainly no toggle a stop on/off.
Next step is the user manual of sForzando.
CC71 = Resonance and CC74 Frequency cut-off.
For me not interesting, but I will have a look.
I think Garritan aria player by default acts the same. Only with patches from
their instruments things can act different. As users of jOrgan we have our own
instruments, our own dispositions.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-25 23:34
Actually, most of my comments in this discussion referenced the wrong CC#,
it was not CC71, it was CC74, Frequency Cutoff. In Polyphone, this controller
value can prevent an instrument from sounding, or, more purposefully, attenuate
or muffle the upper harmonics to alter the tonality of a sound to the point
that it is not identifiable with the original. This might serve a purpose if
a diapason or string sample were all to which one had access.
Theoretically, you could make a variety of flutes by judicious use of the Frequency Cutoff.......
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-04 16:34
Hi all,
I have confirmation that Garritan Aria Player is free for use with non-Garritan
SFZ libraries.
The latest version of the ARIA Player (Version 1.959) can be downloaded here:
https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360037425313
From sForzando I know you can convert SF2 to SFZ. It converts a whole SF2 at once.
Polyphone also can save SFZ from sf2.
You can also find some instructions on how to import external SFZ libraries, from
the ARIA Player user manual here:
https://usermanuals.garritan.com/ARIAPlayer/Content/sfz_libraries.htm
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-04 20:41
Jan Flikweert wrote:
"I have confirmation that Garritan Aria Player is free for use with
non-Garritan SFZ libraries."
Hi Jan,
That's good news!
Thank you for persevering with this matter, and for reporting on it.
It may lead to some people finding Aria to be a useful addition to what
jOrgan can control, especially in the area of release sounds.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-04 20:54
JohnR wrote: "especially in the area of release sounds."
Hi John and all interested people,
Good you mention that. SFZ can handle release parts of samples.
I played using Garritan next piece:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iIdI__nKfnrVHw4wLRv6L-w-Z3ycVHgS/view?fbcli
d=IwAR2KK6FNG0BIwal6UwbabOqjR0w05rkEF7qCF98YX3sMnPKFOvmhLBtil9E
Especially the canon with Oboe '8 in the 2nd part sounds nice.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-06 15:21
Hi Jan,
Thank you for that sound clip. I think it's a fine piece of music, somewhat dark,
but matching the strong feelings of Psalm 130, which opens with the words,
"Out of the depths I cry to you, O Lord".
I don't actually manage to hear any release sounds as such, and perhaps they are
masked by other notes plus the reverberation. Do you think the Oboe stop is a
recorded sample of a reed stop, or could it be a "synthesized" combination of
ranks of various pitches? Such stops do exist.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-06 18:33
JohnR wrote: "I don't actually manage to hear any release sounds" and
"somewhat dark" and " or could it be a
"synthesized" combination of ranks"
John,
I do not use the release point and the release part of the recorded samples
of my digital organ. I do not synthesize these samples. 95 real stops is
enough.
The only thing I did was create mixtures,carillon,cymbal,sesquialter from
octave 4' etc., create some 32' from 16' and 4'from 8' flutes vice versa
mostly using Polyphone.
And indeed I played the piece with a combination of stops accompanying solo
of the Oboe.
Dutch organ players do not always compose/play in "Toccata" style. And of
course the feeling of "crying" is not always 'pp' and can be expressed in
many ways. I have Ps. 130 van Willem Hendrik Zwart in mind which starts
'fff'.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl. MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Midi Association Announcement regarding Midi 2.0
From JohnB on 2022-01-25 03:56
As users of jOrgan, we take this for granted, but it is interesting to read
the technical explanations of what changes are in MIDI 2.0.
https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/details-about-midi-2-0-midi-ci-profiles-and-
property-exchange?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MIDI+
Association+Launches+New+2022+Initiatives&utm_campaign=2022+MIDI+Initiatives+
January&vgo_ee=vUefeLyjYY5qq4Ah5%2BBKcpH9njAGgsKpex767TJaUxU%3D
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Fluidsynth Failure-A tale of Two Computers
From Les Knoll on 2022-01-27 14:47
I have two windows computers, one a laptop that came with win10/64 and the other
a desktop I just upgraded to win10/64. The laptop is running my jOrgan disposition
in 3.21.1 32 bit perfectly. The organ couldn't play better.
I downloaded jOrgan 3.21.1 32 bit for the desktop the same day I upgraded to win10/64
on the desktop. I immediately loaded jOrgan, and found it strange I could not find
the 64 bit version, and that when I downloaded the 32 bit version I got a message
about this software not commonly being downloaded, and a slew of warnings about
potential 'dangers.'
After downloading 3.21.1/32bit to the desktop, I loaded the identical disposition
as is being used on the laptop, and immediately got numerous errors about the names
of inputs and outputs. The 3.21.1 on the laptop assigns ins and outs numbers
i.e. "Audiobox USB 96 in #6" where the same software on the desktop only accepts the
designation "Audiobox USB 96." Editing all these I/O designations happily gets rid
of all the problems, except:
FLUIDSYNTH FAILURE
The only thing I can find wrong is in the Fluidsynth element properties, I cannot get
the audio device pick to show ANY choices. Clicking on the dropdown arrow shows nothing.
The same is true for the audio driver pick. This should at least have "dsound" available,
but does not. I'm pretty sure this is the source of the Fluidsynth Failure problems, or
at least, an indication of them. Just don't know what causes it.
The audio/MIDI interface used in both systems is a Presonus Audiobox USB 96. On the laptop
installation, it works fabulously in conjunction with a TC Electronic reverb unit, the
organ has never sounded better. Two-way MIDI on a full 3m console with moveable combination
action works like a charm, too.
On the desktop, the Presonus works OK as the computer's sound output, but not jOrgan's.
It worked OK, strangely enough before I installed the Presonus drivers, and works well now
that the drivers are installed. A check with the device manager shows the Presonus drivers
are being used. A quick check indicates the Presonus works with other computer audio
applications, just not jOrgan.
I have used jOrgan for years, but never became expert at audio applications, so this kind
of a thing does have me puzzled. I have always gotten the audio to work before, often without
incident, but this one's got me, especially since I have two supposedly identical OS's,
identical loads of jOrgan, and virtually identical dispositions. One works, one has fluidsynth
failures.
Any of you audio gurus out there have any suggestions, I'm all ears!
Les Knoll
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-01-27 15:40
I had the same problem with my presonus firestudio project 8 input/output sound
card... I had a mismatch with the fludisynth backend. When I downloaded the correct
backend it began to work fine.
One word of caution... I forgot that jOrgan opens the last disposition from where
ever it was... not the jOrgan 32 or 64 we are in. I run both 32 and 64 bit versions
for testing purposes. I have to make sure I use Open and navigate to the particular
version of jOrgan I am opening.
I hope this is helpful to some degree...
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-01-27 15:55
Hi Les
The biggest cause of Fluidsynth failure is a mismatch between the bits of jOrgan
and the last installed bits of Java.
You can have both 32 bit and 64 bit Java on a computer, but the last Java installed
is set-up by the Java installer as the default Java.
There are other work-arounds but simply reinstalling the one that suits your chosen
jOrgan installation is the easiest fix.
The input device errors you mention: it sounds like in your working set-up you have
set View - Configuration - MIDI, ticked: Cache Devices, Enumerate Devices.
These are not active by default in a new jOrgan installation and are not stored in
a disposition.
Regards
Rick.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Les Knoll on 2022-01-28 09:13
Rick,
Many thanx for your helpful response! I found out soon after posting that the
problem was in the bit depth difference between jOrgan/Fluidsynth and the Java
that was installed in the machines. Both machines are now running 64 bit Java as
default and 64 bit jOrgan. This solves all the Fluidsynth failures. They prolly
sound better, too.
"View - Configuration - MIDI, Cache Devices, Enumerate" has been turned off in
all dispositions on both machines. Strangely enough, the desktop version (most
recently loaded Win 10) still calls the Presonus MIDI output "3 - Audiobox USB 96",
retaining the number designation. If a disposition is transferred from machine to
machine, these entries must still be edited, sure wish they didn't, but things are
still a whole lot better than they were early last night!
Les Knoll
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-01-28 11:35
Hi Les
Glad you made progress.
I would suggest that Cache and Enumerate MIDI devices should be on on both
devices. This is a setting in jOrgan and not remembered anywhere in a disposition.
Regards
Rick.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Les Knoll on 2022-01-29 05:21
Marc Paul,
Thanx for your help. My problem was somewhat related, an apparent mismatch
in bit depth between Fluidsynth and the Java what was installed. Changed
everything to 64 bit, now all is well with sound. I still have other issues
with transferring dispositions between two computers, but I am resigned to
the fact that I will have to do minor edits when I transfer one to the other.
I will just keep separate copies on each computer, I don't revise them very often.
Les Knoll MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
play release part of sample with jOrgan
From Jan Flikweert on 2021-12-26 18:59
Hi all,
SFZ can handle release parts: [Region], [trigger]=release. This reacts to note-off.
I suppose one region for attack and one region for release.
Linuxsampler can handle SFZ.
And jOrgan can handle Linuxsampler.
I am going to try that.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2021-12-27 12:45
Jan Flikweert wrote:
"SFZ can handle release parts"
Jan,
So can the sf2 soundfont protocol. Most jOrgan users and disposition creators do not
use this ability with flue pipe Instruments (prinipals, flutes, strings). as they
regard the extra complication not worth the small difference in sound that results.
Some creators feel that reed stops should use short release samples (I am not one of
them), as some reed stops do have audible release transients. If you want to see how
it is done, have a look at the reed stops in some of Paul Stratman's soundfonts. You
need to look very carefully to get the full picture. It has been quite fully
discussed on the Mailing List over the years.
The reason I, for one (but there are probably others), do not go to the extra trouble,
is that we are more governed by musical usefulness than by the need for great
authenticity. Quite frankly, I consider those reed pipe release transients to be just
an eccentricity which many pipe organ builders would like to see kept to a bare minimum.
I have discussed them with such a builder, and he spoke of them as something which
"just happens". I am sure they occur because of the way the pallet closes when a key
is released. If too loud, they have to be called a musical distraction. That is my
opinion as a player. For listeners some distance from the organ, they are often not
audible, partly because their presence is masked by the reverberation.
Pipe attack transients are another matter altogether. They are very important. I have
done a Google search on "Starting transients in organ pipes" and many sites have been
given. Another search for "Closing transients" yielded nothing, as far as I recall.
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2021-12-27 19:10
Jan Flikweert wrote:
"SFZ can handle release parts"
Hi all,
I mean: You can define a part of a sample which will be played after a
note-off event occurs.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2021-12-29 22:48
Hi all,
I did not manage to get jOrgan play SFZ files ontrigger=release using Linuxsampler.
Using Sforzando it works. But it is not recommended to use sForzando with large
dispositions. sForzando’s uses the Aria engine.
Because jOrgan/sForzando works this will not be an error in jOrgan!
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2021-12-30 22:08
Hi all,
I managed to let jOrgan play the release part of a given sample after a normal
loop using sf2/fluidsynth in jOrgan. Thanks to the author of polyphone which
provided a how to. A small soundfont+disposition can be downloaded here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ts_Yxlrc66DNlXYNfcySsz0w2D1fSFSA/view?usp=sharing
And this is the link to the tutorial from Polyphone:
https://www.polyphone-soundfonts.com/documentation/en/tutorials/
using-custom-releases-in-an-instrument
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2021-12-30 23:57
Jan, I don't know how those who record the sample sets of real pipes from pipe organs
edit the samples. I have seen the automated-player machine that is used to play the
individual notes of a given manual, for recording purposes, and I know that the
length of the samples and the time intervals between notes, for the purpose of
complete decay of the sound after release of the key would be a factor in Polyphone
with respect to auto-looping and the triggering of the release portion of the sample.
I have never used or analyzed a sample set from Hauptwerk, so I don't know if the
release portion is a separate wave file or if it is simply the end portion of the
wave file, set to play on release of the key (midi note-off).
I infer from the wording of the "using custom releases in an instrument" that a custom
release is NOT the recorded natural decay to silence set to play after the release of
a key playing the looped, steady-state portion of a wave file, rather that it is a
separate wave file, set to play after the release of the key (midi note-off).
Whether, with auto-looping in jOrgan, for samples which are ALL of a specific length in
seconds, the release portion of the wave file must, also, ALL be a specific length--after
the END of Loop—would be a factor and a potential problem area, I am not certain.
Whether the release parameters set by Release Maker in Polyphone, the halving of the
value per octave relative to the footage of the stop, (just as with attacks), can be
applied to Release Sample wave files, I, also, do not know.
What we have found is that, if a sample of a specific length is auto-looped for "steady
state", the release parameters for the footage of the stop work very well to effectuate
a release. Given the tempo or speed of most music, I don't believe that releases are,
often, a detectable aspect of "CD-quality" audio, even for the most critical listener.
I would be interested (and will) to try creating samples the release tails of which I do
not edit (out). Normally, I use samples of 6-seconds length and cut and delete
everything after 6 seconds, that is, the release tail portion. Several years ago,
I had release tail samples in all my soundfonts. They were no better and no more
effective than the use of the release maker parameters in jOrgan which effectuate
some emulation of release.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2021-12-31 01:07
Hi all,Hi John,
I have here a HW demo of Utrecht. For the prestant 8 there are two different samples.
I suppose Front/L/R and Back/R/L. For that prestant 8 there are 3 different release
samples which are real release samples.
On the next website you can find a nice visual of delay.attack,hold,decay,sustain and
release: Envelope Generators - SFZ Format
The start of the release part should be the start of the release sample.
The loop I suppose you place/search in the sustain part.
Every time you play a note jorgan plays delay ,attack ,hold and decay. Releasing a note
will play the release sample. So I do not care about the length of a sample. I also do
not care about the length from the release part. Let jOrgan play is "as-it-is".
In polyphone it is easy. You make a right click at the start of the release. A red line
appears which is end loop. Then write down the number end loop of that sample and the end
of the entire sample. Then you do "autoloop" and Polyphone cuts-off the part after the loop,
which is actually the release. In this way your release and loop are seamless. Then you
create a separate release file using the notated values of by editing the sample in f.e.
Audacity which can be done from Polyphone.
I suppose our goal is to emulate a real sounding organ in real space.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2021-12-31 19:53
I wrote: “A small soundfont+disposition can be downloaded here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ts_Yxlrc66DNlXYNfcySsz0w2D1fSFSA/view?usp=sharing “
Today I updated this upload with sample+release from one wave file Burea Principal 8.
I defined a very small loop at the beginning of the wave file and cut it off after the loop.
All has been done with Polyphone+Audacity.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-02 08:55
I wrote: “SFZ can handle release parts: [Region], [trigger]=release. This reacts
to note-off. I suppose one region for attack and one region for release.
Linuxsampler can handle SFZ.
And jOrgan can handle Linuxsampler.”
I have found the way to solve this using sfz/linuxsampler in an easy way. In this
example the release file contains only the release part. The sample containing the
loop may contain briefly stated: attack until and including loop and does not need
the release part.
Here is an example sfz file:
Test.sfz
<group>
trigger=attack
lokey=36
hikey=96
pitch_keycenter=36
volume=-3
<region>
sample=.\samples\Sample_containing_atttack_including_loop-Pr8-036-C.wav
loop_mode=loop_continuous
<group>
trigger=release
lokey=36
hikey=96
pitch_keycenter=36
volume=-9
<region>
sample=.\samples\Release-Pr8-036-C.wav
cutoff=1000
loop_mode=one_shot
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-03 04:28
JohnB wrote:"I have never used or analyzed a sample set from Hauptwerk, so I don't
know if the release portion is a separate wave file or if it is simply the end
portion of the wave file,"
And
JohnR wrote: "Quite frankly, I consider those reed pipe release transients to be
just an eccentricity which many pipe organ builders would like to see kept to a
bare minimum."
Hi all,
I have analyzed a demo of Utrecht. As earlier stated the release is a separate
file for each key. Another thing is they cutoff the first little piece of the
release(reverb).
And to be clear for me is the goal of a "release" to hear "reverb". I agree with
JohnR that I am not interested in "reed pipe release transients".
I created a sfz/lscp file from the prestant 8 of demo Utrecht including separate
release samples of that demo. Playing from jOrgan the result is good. Due to legal
reasons I cannot share this. Probably I can share playing some chords.
Discussing/comparing jOrgan with GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk people could state that
they can use the release parts. I think jOrgan can do this also.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-01-03 12:02
Jan F wrote:
"Discussing/comparing jOrgan with GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk people could state that
they can use the release parts. I think jOrgan can do this also."
Hi Jan,
Thank you for all the time and effort you have devoted to this subject. I agree with
your conclusion that jOrgan is capable of using the release parts, but I think I have
already made it clear that I believe it is a mistake to try to do that.
In fact, I think it is one of the great virtues of jOrgan that because of our common
use of sf2 soundfonts, we can use the excellent synthesized release sounds which sf2
sound engines such as Fluidsynth produce for us, and so we don't have to put up with
the disadvantages of having to use release SAMPLES. Those disadvantages are the
difficulty of matching the start of the release sample to the end of the looped sample,
and the poor musical effect produced when the player wants to use staccato or semi-
staccato touch.
If we want to use release samples with jOrgan, however, we need to feed the MIDI
messages processed by jOrgan to a sound engine capable of handling them correctly.
Fluidsynth will do that for a single sample, but as far as I now, that is all! Why is it
desirable to use a sound engine capable of handling a number of release samples FOR THE
ONE NOTE? I assume it is because of the problem I have just mentioned at the end of the
previous paragraph. I can think of no other reason why sample set creators would go to
the trouble of adding those additional samples, if it was not felt that their absence
would be a serious fault. But consider all the extra work involved! I am talking about
sample sets for HW or GO. We now begin to see one reason for the huge amounts of RAM
required by some of the large HW samples sets.
There is a sound engine that is capable of handling this extra level of complexity.
It can be used with jOrgan if we convert our sf2 soundfonts to SFZ ones. It is called
ARIA. It was discussed on the Mailing List about five years ago, and although Erik de
Schriver tried to get us interested in it, nothing came of it at the time.
I don't know if ARIA can be obtained anywhere for free. It was very hard to do that five
years ago, and it may even be harder now. You can access the Mailing List discussions by
consulting the archive. My jorgan.info/link.html web-page has a link to the archive near
the top. You then use the Search box at the left of the SourceForge page. I did this for
"ARIA". It resulted in a large number of posts being indicated. By considering their
dates you can work out that a number of threads were involved. If you click on the first
post in each date-group and then go to the bottom of the web-page, you are given a link
to the whole thread. This is a far more convenient method of following the discussion.
Here, for example, is a link to the second of those threads:
https://sourceforge.net/p/jorgan/mailman/jorgan-user/thread/
1497966407099-4665244.post%40n4.nabble.com/#msg35903471
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-03 19:11
John R wrote: "I don't know if ARIA can be obtained anywhere for free." "And
so we don't have to put up with the disadvantages of having to use release
SAMPLES"
Hi all, John,
sForzando is based on Aria. sForzando can be obtained for free:
https://www.plogue.com/downloads.html It can convert SF2 to sfz.
The con of it is: It cannot handle large dispositions as I use.
For my personal use I do not need the use of release samples, because the
samples stored in my digital organ does not have them.
I am very amazed(I do not know if this is the right word) about jOrgan
users. They do not like the reality of release samples(just cutoff a release
8 ft 36 note at 1000hz and reduce attenuation) , but they love the nasty
reality of leaking organ pipes which organ builders really do not like and
should be repaired!
The main question is: What does the user wish? And what did happen with
users who wanted this, but did not got it?
It is very strange that Grandorgue and Hauptwerk adds the release sample,
use the release part and like John R wrote: "so we don't have to put up with
the disadvantages of having to use release SAMPLES"
I think a strong point of jOrgan is that you can use older computers and
have a nice result. It also can give different flavours: The original organ
and an extended version. To be ready for future I advice to add the flavor
of better cleaning of samples and real reverb.
Again the main question is: What does the user wish? And what did happen
with users who wanted this, but did not got it?
There were much troubles with Fluidsynth, every time anything changes it
does not work and when a sf exceeds 2gb on windows you need to split it.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-03 22:16
Garritan Pipe Organ Sound Library ( https://www.garritan.com/blog/logic-multiple-tracks/ )
uses the ARIA Player. I know nothing about ARIA Player, but there are links ("Software
Integration") to blurbs on using the Garritan Sound Libraries with VSTs and workstudio
programs such as Ableton Live, etc. Apparently, the Garritan Pipe organs are playable
using the ARIA Player with no additional midi software interface. I was curious about it
because the quality of the recordings of organ music from the Pipe Organ sound library,
which consists of 75 stops from a number of different organs.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-03 23:19
JohnB wrote: "Garritan Pipe Organ Sound Library (
https://www.garritan.com/blog/logic-multiple-tracks/ ) uses the ARIA
Player"
Garritan seems to me the same user interface as the free sForzando. I
suppose Garritan adds only their "own" instruments. The free sForzando has a
very nice reverb. And indeed f.e. the free sForzando has a aria plugin which
can be used in f.e. REAPER or any other DAW. I will going to test sForzando
on my disposition using FFFFF, because it I mean to remember it cannot
handle that.
I suppose the available jOrgan sf2 are as good as any other instruments?
Another point of sForzando/Aria/Garritan is when you have a existing sf2 you
load in garritan in sforzando it will convert it to sfz. This sfz in
garritan is accessible from jOrgan with the same messages in the ranks as
your sf2. Only send it through a midi port.
Sideways a remark about Linuxsampler/GIG files: Linuxsampler has a script
language to use scripts in gig files.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-03 23:23
Jan said: "I am very amazed(I do not know if this is the right word) about jOrgan users.
They do not like the reality of release samples (just cutoff a release 8 ft 36 note at
1000hz and reduce attenuation) , but they love the nasty reality of leaking organ pipes
which organ builders really do not like and should be repaired!"
It is not that jOrgan users "do not like the reality of release samples." However, the
effect of the release sample is, practically, lost in the flow of music being played at
most normal tempos. It might be noticeable if no artificial reverb, at all, were being
used and/or the samples, themselves, contained the reverberation of the ambience in which
the organ was recorded. Given this fact, the parameter settings which effectuate a
release effect by "release maker" in Polyphone are more than adequate to achieve an
acceptable result.
I have stated before that, in my personal opinion, "CD Quality" sound is that of sound,
heard by a listener in the audience or congregation, not that of the player in an
orchestra or at a piano or organ.
Key noise, pallet noise, stop change noise, or windchest aspiration or blower noise,
while a reality at certain locations close to the console, are not tonal sounds of an
instrument and add nothing to the actual music, however much "realism" they might add
to the mechanics of performance. Of all of these, the one that might give some realism
to the sound of the music is the blower noise (background" or wind aspiration, white or
pink noise, and, even this is extraneous to proper sound quality from the audiophile's
perspective.
Jan, your description of release sample ("just cutoff a release 8 ft 36 note at 1000Hz
and reduce attenuation") needs some explanation. Is this what you think jOrgan users
do with release samples, or is this what Polyphone does, or is this what you believe
should be done regarding release samples?
Since an 8 ft. stop at note 36 is a frequency of about 64 Hz, a cutoff frequency (if that
is what you mean) of 1000 Hz will effectuate a detectable difference in tonal quality
( as compared with no frequency cutoff) and attenuation. This is one of the weaknesses
of MIDI, effectuated electronically. That is, the unexpected interdependence of, seemingly,
unrelated parameters, such that, if one is changed, it affects the quality of another,
needing to be changed, in turn, to compensate. It creates a "nuisance factor" of
"correlated tuning."
Some of the parameters in Polyphone have a rather dramatic effect and attenuation is
one of them. I tried using a 6dB attenuation setting, per octave, in the instrument
pool of my soundfonts, since they are synthesized sounds and, using one sample per octave,
were uniform. However, the very noticeable change in volume from the B note of one octave
to the C note of the next higher octave was objectionable. So, I changed my system and,
in the Samples pool, I decrease ("Change Volume"), per octave, by 10%, starting with 70%
for MIDI notes 12 and 24 (C=16 Hz and C=32 Hz) up to the wave files of MIDI note numbers
108 (C=4186 Hz) and #120 (C=8372 Hz), which are set to 5%. The transition from one octave
to another is much gentler and the change in volume is hardly noticeable. This gives
an, overall, blend to the sound. But their individuality is perceptible (with headphones,
particularly).
I have, often, thought that I would love to be able to have a professional, organ voicer
take my soundfonts and tune or "voice" them with the parameters of Polyphone, just as he
would the actual pipes of an organ. I am not sure that that could be done, but I would
love to hear the end result!
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Thomas Beck on 2022-01-03 23:48
Jan, you asked, "The main question is: What does the user wish? And what did happen with
users who wanted this, but did not got it?"
I am one who wants the release samples and what I did was switch from jOrgan to GrandOrgue.
For my use and taste, there is no comparison between the two. I also found much more variety
of sample sets using GO, although I do have to create the ODFs myself.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-04 01:18
Jan asked "I suppose the available jOrgan sf2 are as good as any other instruments?"
To be perfectly honest, I have never used Hauptwerk or Grand Orgue, but have listened
to youtubers, Richard McVeigh of Beauty in Sound and Fraser Gartshore, both, wonderful
organists who use Hauptwerk. Apparently, the more professional organists who, also,
can afford Hauptwerk and the sample sets
that are available for it find it to be the best virtual organ program out there.
The sound is, truly, remarkable being, virtually, indistinguishable from the actual
pipe organs. I have wondered whether organists of this caliber have even tried jOrgan.
Some of Paul Stratman's dispositions might rival the real sample sets of Hauptwerk, but
the bulk of opinions from users who have used jOrgan and transitioned to Hauptwerk
seems to be that they are not going to return to jOrgan.
Really, I wonder if the two can not be compared at all? That is, that the quality of
sf2 files is so inferior to the wave files of recorded pipes with the ambient reverb
that there is no comparison?
I am not willing to pay $500 or $600 for Hauptwerk and, whereas, I may "have my taste
in my mouth," I have found the challenge of producing synthesized, organ sounds so
rewarding, and the creation of soundfonts so entertaining, and the use of jOrgan to
be so much fun, that the question of whether it sounds like a "glorified Hammond" more
than a real pipe organ is, no longer, something that bothers me. I have been a jOrgan
user since shortly after Sven began the project and, first, used it with the Organtool
and ORGANizer software which, at that time, would produce a disposition by checkbox
selection of the presets in an imported soundfont. My guess is that this was 18 or 20
years ago, although Sven may know, exactly, when he made the first release of jOrgan.
Here's wishing you, all, a better and happier New Year and hoping that the world begins
to see some relief from the effects of Covid! I had it in November and survived,
thankfully. Back to normal and played for a church service yesterday!
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB 2022-01-04 01:43
Jan mentioned the word "DAW" in his last posting and I was not certain of the meaning
of the term, thinking "digital-analog" something or other. So, I searched the term
and found the following
definition of "Digital Audio Workstation."
"A digital audio workstation (DAW) is an electronic device or application software used
for recording, editing and producing audio files. DAWs come in a wide variety of
configurations from a single software program on a laptop, to an integrated stand-alone
unit, all the way to a highly complex configuration of numerous components controlled by
a central computer. Regardless of configuration, modern DAWs have a central interface that
allows the user to alter and mix multiple recordings and tracks into a final produced piece."
After reading the definition, I came to the conclusion that jOrgan qualifies as a "Digital
Audio Workstation." Isn't this so?
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-04 01:58
JohnB wrote:", I came to the conclusion that jOrgan qualifies
as a "Digital Audio Workstation.""
John,
It is confusing. I think jOrgan is not an DAW. REAPER, Mulab etc. are DAW's.
In f.e. REAPER you can load all the stops of your disposition separate in a
track using sForzando as plugin and control that from jOrgan. Unfortunual
this messes things around.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-04 02:15
JohnM quoted me: ("just cutoff a release 8 ft 36 note
at 1000Hz and reduce attenuation")
John,
Indeed that needs clarification.
I used the Principal 8' 36 of Burea. Splitting the sample at the point I
consider to be the release point results in disturbance at the start. I
noticed this above 1000 hz. So I add parameter Filter (cut hz) 1000 to the
sf. In Hauptwerk they solved this by starting after the disturbance.
Regarding reverb I want to state: Without "reverb" and the effect of the
space on sound organ music should sound "dead".
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-04 02:21
Jan, does a DAW have to include a physical, music keyboard?
John B.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-04 02:39
Thomas wrote: "I am one who wants the release samples"
Thomas,
Thanks for your reply. As you probably have noticed it is hard to change things
in the jOrgan community. You solved it your way which I respect.
For my personal use jOrgan is the most easy. I created a soundfont from my digital
organ. The samples in that digital organ have no release. So for me the subject
"release" is no issue. I use Reverberate with a little chorus. Creating a disposition
with GrandOrgue is not so easy and it has no ASIO audio backend, unless you compile
it yourself. Most important for me is that it is easy in jOrgan to store for each
piece of music combinations in memory.
An issue for both jOrgan and GrandOrgue is there is not much development at the
moment. That is not necessary because they need no improvement. But hardware,
OS etc. changes. The subject "security" also. That causes libraries who were
safe getting vulnerable.
Why do I post about this subject? I have much spare time, I love to work with this
things and want to contribute to the community. I even dreamed to record a organ
and create a disposition. I think the community needs no contribute and as you
noticed I have a different point of view.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-04 02:47
John B wrote: "Jan, does a DAW have to include a physical, music keyboard?"
John,
I do not know. Using sForzando as plugin for your disposition in a DAW
requires midi.
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-04 05:20
JohnB wrote: "Garritan Pipe Organ Sound Library
(https://www.garritan.com/blog/logic-multiple-tracks/ ) uses the ARIA
Player."
Hi all,
The Garritan Aria player can be downloaded here:
https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360037425313-ARIA-Player-Ver
sion-1-959-Installer
The pro is you can use for each instance of it 16 instruments let us say
stops. Using in REAPER you can add for each instrument track one Garritan
Aria plugin containing 16 instruments. Each instrument can be assigned to
one channel.
For this solution again the question, can it handle more than 16 instruments
at one time?
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-05 00:57
JohnB wrote: "Garritan Pipe Organ Sound Library (
https://www.garritan.com/blog/logic-multiple-tracks/ ) uses the ARIA
Player."
Hi all,
I have tried the Garritan Aria player as plugin in REAPER. I used 12 tracks
each track can contain up to 16 stops. I must confess it can handle large
dispositions and does not mess things up.
The only issue I am facing is how to change the volume for each stop? Using
CC1 or CC7 only effects the first channel of each plugin.
Of course I Googled and there is suggested using mod-wheel, so the CC1. That
did not work.
Any ideas?
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Graham Wykes on 2022-01-05 01:21
Jon F wrote:
"The only issue I am facing is how to change the volume for each stop? Using
CC1 or CC7 only effects the first channel of each plugin."
You need to change the first byte of the midi cc message to specify the channel.
So 176 is CC on channel 1, 177 is CC on channel 2 etc.
"Of course I Googled and there is suggested using mod-wheel, so the CC1. That
did not work.
Any ideas?"
CC7 is volume and CC11 is expression. Try those.
Cheers
GrahamW
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-05 02:16
Jan, unless you can access the wave files of the soundbank you are using and,
perhaps, edit the volume in a wave editor, such as Audacity, there may be no
way to regulate it. So, there is no gain level which can be set by the user
in ARIA? That does seem rather strange given the fact that there is so much
variation in the overall volume. If ARIA does not allow allow channel volume
control, you would, seemingly, have to reduce the volume of the wave files in
the soundbank.
Are you using the Garritan Classic Pipe Organ sample set, also?
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-05 02:19
Graham Wykes wrote:
"CC7 is volume and CC11 is expression. Try those."
Graham, Jan is using the Garritan ARIA player in REAPER, which, apparently,
does not allow the input of midi programming language such as jOrgan does,
and, so, he can not change the volume on the individual channels.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-05 02:32
JohnB wrote: "If ARIA does not allow allow channel volume control, you would,
seemingly, have to reduce the volume of the wave files in the soundbank."
John,
I only have the player without instruments and added the soundfont from my
own digital organ. In an early post I wrote the download link from the
player Garritan uses. The idea behind their instruments is they recorded
f.e. a plenum from organs in different styles.
Indeed you can modify the volume in the SFZ file.
But I suppose we want to use our swell pedal or store a given volume to a
stop in our jorgan memory etc.
Reading on other forums you read the wonderful ideas: Read the manual
without telling where, use the mod wheel or CC1 without mention how and in
which combinations these messages should be used:
Engage rank CC 1,100
Disengage rank CC 1, or just nothing.
Is CC1 needed CC1 and CC7 and in what combination. Just try it. Good
luck........
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-05 04:37
Hi all,
I found this. I am going to try that. It needs to be added to the sfz file
<global>
amplitude_oncc11=100
<control>
label_cc011=11 Expression
set_cc011=127 // Power-on Default Value: Expression
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-05 18:51
JohnB wrote: "does not allow the input of midi programming language such as jOrgan does"
Hi all,
I did manage to control the volume. You can create controllers in your SFZ files. All works
even with large dispositions. There are two things which I will change:
1. I use a basic sf2 to convert to sfz. The attack needs improvement. This is a known
issue which we discussed before in this thread
2. Volume needs improvement. That can be done from sfz.
Kind regards
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-05 23:49
Graham said: "You need to change the first byte of the midi cc message to specify
the channel. So 176 is CC on channel 1, 177 is CC on channel 2 etc.”
This, in fact, works in jOrgan with no problem. I have a disposition in which I,
successfully, input the MPL for the messages to 6 divisions, both for expression
(CC11) and Volume (CC7) for all channels.
So, if a midi file is played from an external, midi sequencer program and input to
the jOrgan disposition, or, if the organ were played from a console having a
corresponding number of expression pedals, it responds to volume and expression
change events on each channel for each division. This can be good or very annoying,
depending on how judiciously an organist uses volume or expression pedals.
Some midi files of organ music, (for example, the Reuter organ midi files available
from Classical Midi Organ Stop at www.graeber.com "Pipe Organ" index) Apparently,
there was some kind of automatic "default" volume setting (CC7) when a .mid file was
produced with the organ because ALL of the .mid files have volume changes of 127
(loudest) in the Event List. If these are read by a jOrgan disposition having the
MPL messages to intercept volume and expression changes, the loudness will be
OVERWHELMING. Be careful to delete these events before using their files.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-06 00:14
JohnB wrote: "Graham said: ‘You need to change the first byte of the midi cc message
to specify the channel. So 176 is CC on channel 1, 177 is CC on channel 2 etc.’ "
John,
That is indeed what happens in jOrgan when you use a Generic sound and add in
properties the channel. This channel value is added to 176 and therefore starts with 0.
Additional you need to create for each stop cc11 controllers in your sfz files.
That are a few lines.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-06 02:47
I wrote: "I have tried the Garritan Aria player as plugin in REAPER."
Hi all,
At the moment the I have a reasonable disposition for this Garritan Aria player plugin
in REAPER. I played some music with at the end 16+8+4+2+mixt to show the result and not
only FF. It can be downloaded here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/119cGyS79nSLSp1x8LRtIIbgFuG4v48oE/view?usp=sharing
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-06 03:09
I wrote: "It can be downloaded here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/119cGyS79nSLSp1x8LRtIIbgFuG4v48oE/view?usp=sharing"
Hi all,
To compare Garritan Aria/sfz and Linuxsampler/Gig files I played the same using
Linuxsampler/Gig files. Download:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MYAgyYWHGL3ADotdPhZ3NfWh8TfDs3gr/view?usp=sharing
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-01-06 13:43
Jan, I prefer the first one below. Linuxsampler is a bit too brash. In your sounds
you have captured the singing quality of the tuning of Dutch organs. They have a very
unique quality to them.
John Beach
Jan F wrote: "It can be downloaded here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/119cGyS79nSLSp1x8LRtIIbgFuG4v48oE/view?usp=sharing
To compare Garritan Aria/sfz and Linuxsampler/Gig files I played the same using
Linuxsampler/Gig files. Download:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MYAgyYWHGL3ADotdPhZ3NfWh8TfDs3gr/view?usp=sharing "
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-01-06 22:59
JohnB wrote: "In your sounds you have captured the singing quality of the tuning
of Dutch organs. They have a very unique quality to them."
John,
That is very interesting. Things are relative. My way of using stops is inspired
on César Franck. F.e. Montre 8, Bourdon 16+8, Flutes en of course reeds. There may
be tuning, but not from the combined stops. That is why I created Montre based mixtures.
The Dutch romantic way of using stops can differ. There are people who combine
Flutes+Prestant which gives a special tuning. There were even sons of Jan Zwart
(Latterly translated: John Black) which are more Prestant based and did not mix
flutes to them. Without judging about these ways of playing I want to point to it.
Another interesting point is you prefer the aria player. This morning I spent to
update aria sfz with the most actual gig. Regarding the Aria player: I use it as
plugin in REAPER, but it can also work standalone with reverb and ambience with
16 instruments. I suppose it is possible to run multiple instances of Aria player
and these instances assign the input to a different midi port. Connection through
Generic sound with use of the channel propertie.
Linuxsampler can also handle release parts of a sample with their gig files. And
Linuxsampler has a script language which can be assigned to gig/sfz files.
Is there anyone who has experience with Kontakt Player? The full version has also
a script language.
I had a look at Kontakt. I see that it can react on release triggers. Problem is
that the free version which I use gives limited access to "third party" instruments.
This does not work fine for me. The complete version costs € 199.
Kind regards,
Fan Fl. MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Problems with Fluidsynth Backends on Windows 10
From JohnR on 2020-12-26 05:10:14
Hi all,
I have verified Andrew's inability to use the backend (I used 1.11 64-bit, with Java 8 64-bit and
jOrgan 3.21 64-bit) with Windows 10. I consistently get the "Unable to create fluidsynth" problem
when switching from dsound to portaudio. This is happening on two Windows 10 machines which
I tried. There is no problem with dsound. The problem does not occur using my Windows 8.1 laptop.
Andrew and I have had a short email exchange. In my last email I told of an incorrect uploading of
at least two backends which I had discovered: the zipped files unzip to produce a folder containing
a sub-folder. The sub-folder is the one which should be copied to the Program
Files/jOrgan/lib/fluidsynth folder, but a lot of people, including myself at first try, would
not realise this. I emailed Andrew suggesting that this would be the cause of his problem, but
unfortunately I have found through my own tests that it is not so. My tests suggest that if
one unwittingly copies the "outer" folder into the /lib/fluidsynth folder, opens a disposition and
uses the Configuration appropriately, and then tries to switch from dsound to portaudio (and
subsequently saves it), that disposition is permanently marked with an inability to be used with a
backend, even on Windows 8.1 .
It is surprising that it has taken this long for the problem to be reported. Has none of the regular jOrgan
users come up with it? (Perhaps we all use Linux, as I do with my Rasp Pi's. My Windows use of
jOrgan has been confined to dsound for a long time.)
I am moving the posts in the "jorgan" thread to this new thread, to keep it all together under a more
appropriate heading.
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2020-12-26 09:54:57
I have just noticed that jOrgan 3.20 was used with the W 8.1 laptop, but 3.21 was used with the two W 10
computers. Tomorrow I shall repeat the tests using 3.20 on one of the W 10 computers. This may
establish whether the difference in results was due to W 8.1/W 10, or to jOrgan 3.20/3.21 .
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2020-12-26 20:32:05
John R. said, "It is surprising that it has taken this long for the problem to be reported."
I reported this quite a while ago. However, the reply I got was, essentially, since dsound worked,
I should not worry about using portaudio. So, I have been using dsound ever since.
At present, using jOrgan 4.0 beta 1 (64-bit), with the Fluidsynth Portaudio ALL version 2.1.0 by
Graham Goode, I have alternatives of output of MME, DirectSound, ASIO, WASAPI, WDM-KS on both the
onboard (Realtek) audio and the Creative Labs Audigy 2 ZS with the Windows 10 WDM driver from the
Audigy RX, although I am using the dsound driver, not the portaudio. I can try it using the portaudio
driver and will let the forum know how that works out.
I have noted before that the joystick Gameport driver that is included with the Audigy RX driver
from Creative Labs works with Windows 10, which means that the Audigy 2 ZS soundcard which has the
older MIDI DB-15 connector can be used with a MIDI IN/OUT cable to connect a keyboard instrument.
This is convenient for older keyboards that are not USB.
JohnB
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2020-12-26 20:37:34
With the portaudio driver, it is only possible to load ONE soundfont. This is fine for dispositions
which have only one soundfont. The dsound driver allows multiple instances and I regularly use a
disposition that uses 11 soundfonts. I believe the Wanamaker has more soundfonts than that and that
the European Organ does, also.
JohnB
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From AndrewW on 2020-12-26 21:37:55
I’m glad I’m not the only one to have this issue at least I know I’m not crazy. I was only trying to get away
from dsound to try to reduce latency. I’m messing with the Morton set and response seems very slow. I’m
running grandorgue and with the better audio drivers installed latency is minimal or the same as asio out of
my Hauptwerk setup.
The raspberry pi setup of jorgan is intriguing. How is latency and sound quality if I go that route?
Andrew
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2020-12-26 22:05:22
AndrewW wrote
“The raspberry pi setup of jorgan is intriguing. How is latency and sound quality if I go that route?”
Hi Andrew,
My use of Raspberry Pi for my home console use was due mainly to aesthetic reasons
(appearance in a public part of the house) than technical, but quite apart from that, I have
reasons to believe that I am unusually fussy when it comes to latency and sound quality,
as most of my organ playing over the years has been confined to small tracker instruments,
where close proximity to the pipes was the case.
I find that the RPi satisfies me totally on these two issues. Bear in mind that my hearing is 81 years old,
but I can still hear sounds which some of my organ friends of similar age can no longer hear. One detail
re latency is that I do use jack as the audio driver, and I think that this may give better results than
pulseaudio or alsa.
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2020-12-27 01:49:22
JohnR wrote
“My tests suggest that if one unwittingly copies the "outer" folder into the /lib/fluidsynth folder,
opens a disposition and uses the Configuration appropriately, and then tries to switch from dsound to
portaudio (and subsequently saves it), that disposition is permanently marked with an inability to be
used with a backend, even on Windows 8.1 .”
Hi all,
Further tests indicate that the above statement may not be correct. However, I am now in a position to
give a fuller report. I loaded jOrgan 3.20 64-bit onto one of the Windows 10 computers. I continued to get
the same "Unable to create Fluidsynth", whether I used the 1.6 ....ALL 64-bit backend or the 1.11 ....ALL
64-bit backend. I then loaded jOrgan 3.21 64-bit onto my Windows 8.1 laptop and had success with portaudio
using either of those two backends.
My conclusion is that trying to use the existing 64-bit "...ALL" backends leads to failure on Windows 10
computers.
JohnB has reported above that he has had success on W 10, but he has confined his use to dsound. We now
need to hear from any jOrgan users who have had portaudio success on a W 10 computer using one of the
fluidsynth backends, and to give us fairly complete details. I lack the knowledge to take my research
any further.
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2020-12-27 04:32:56
John R., I have tried jOrgan 4.0 beta 1 64-bit with fluidsynth portaudio ALL 2.1.0, portaudio 19 built
with ASIO, WASAPI and WDM Kernel Streaming (WDM-KS). Consistently, I can use only ONE instance of
Fluidsynth with one soundfont. Multiple instances for multiple soundfonts do not work. The portaudio
driver does work with either onboard (Realtek) audio or the Creative Labs soundcard, again with only one
instance of fluidsynth and one soundfont.
So, it must be true that dsound is the only driver which allows multiple instances of Fluidsynth and
multiple soundfonts. Perhaps, Graham Goode can tell us why the limitation of one instance of Fluidsynth/one
soundfont exists for the portaudio driver. I have a vague recollection that he may have done this in the
not too distant past, but can not recall the reason for the limitation.
JohnB
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2020-12-27 07:09:37
JohnB wrote
“John R., I have tried jOrgan 4.0 beta 1 64-bit with fluidsynth portaudio ALL 2.1.0, portaudio ......
The portaudio driver does work with either onboard (Realtek) audio or the Creative Labs soundcard”
Hi JohnB,
Thank you for that report. I find that very encouraging, but also a bit mystifying, why the backend works
with jOrgan 4.0 beta on Windows 10 machines, but there are problems on Windows 10 with earlier versions of
jOrgan and the appropriate backends. Perhaps we shall hear from other jOrgan users to help us fill in the
details.
Now all we need is for the Fluidsynth people to eliminate that annoying modulation from their new and
improved reverb.
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From GrahamG on 2020-12-27 07:48:30
I’m away on holiday at the moment so can’t test anything, however, ASIO should be the only backend that is
limited to one instance of Fluidsynth, as the ASIO specification gets exclusive use of the sound device.
WDM-KS, WASAPI, and Dsound are all Windows driver layers, and should be able to share the device.
GrahamG
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2020-12-27 12:20:27
Graham, thanks for the input. I tried the portaudio driver with the WDM-KS and it only allows ONE instance
of Fluidsynth with one soundfont. However, as I said, the dsound driver allows multiple instances and
soundfonts without a problem. I think I asked you whether there was any significant difference in sound
output quality between portaudio and dsound drivers. I have used them both with onboard (Realtek) audio
and Creative Labs soundcards and seem to recall that portaudio used to capable of multiple instances of
Fluidsynth and soundfonts, but do not recall with which version of jOrgan or Windows operating system this
capability may have become limited.
JohnB
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From greenfox on 2020-12-29 10:23:58
Hi John and jOrgan list members
As you may have guessed from my silence, I have not done much with jOrgan of late, however I have set
up to test this latest feedback.
My daily work computer (and what I run jOrgan on) is Windows 10, Java 8 (271) (I started with
Java 8 241 then upgraded to 271 with no change in results)
I report no problems with jOrgan 4.0b1 64bit with Port Audio backend PortAudioALLa64 V2.1.0 using WASAPI
I report no problems with jOrgan 3.21b3 64bit with port Audio Backend
fluidsynth1.1.11_64-bit.dsound.pa.WASAPI.1.1 V1.1
Using jOrgan 4.0b1 I confirm that WDM-KS works but only using 1 instance of Fluidsynth.
Other options in Port Audio settings had distorted output or no output.
These versions of jOrgan and back ends were downloaded previously, not fresh for this testing.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2020-12-29 13:47:01
“Other options in Port Audio settings had distorted output or no output.”
I failed to mention that, when I gave my report on jOrgan 4.0 beta 1 64-bit with fluidsynth Portaudio ALL
64-bit using WDM-KS. The output was distorted.
Originally, when the portaudio backends were added, I was under the impression that portaudio was supposed
to be a better quality sound than dsound. However, consistently, I have found that dsound gives more
functionality in terms of number of soundfonts allowed and my expectations with respect to sound quality
are satisfied with dsound. I have always used “speakers” for the output of both onboard and added soundcard
audio. I have read numerous articles that assert that digital SPDIF (optical) is the best quality audio
output, but it requires a digital amplifier with SPDIF connector and the cables for that, and the output
is digital to analog conversion (DAC) which is what the PC does, anyway. So, it seemed unnecessary.
Perhaps, GrahamG can look into these issues when he is back from holiday and has the time to do so.
Incidentally, Audacity wave editor, which I used exclusively to record and edit the wave files which
comprise my soundfonts works best with settings of MME (driver), “What You Hear” (recording), Mono or
Stereo, and “Speakers” (output). There are two alternatives to MME driver. They are Windows DirectSound
and Windows WASAPI. Does anyone know what the difference, if there is one, is between Windows
DirectSound and Windows WASAPI and Fluidsynth dsound and WASAPI? I am thinking that it is merely what
is included with a specific program and must be the same and copiable (by licence) a Windows Driver Model
for inclusion in any individually developed program that requires it. Am I way out in left field??
JohnB
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2020-12-30 01:06:52
JohnB wrote
“on jOrgan 4.0 beta 1 64-bit with fluidsynth Portaudio ALL 64-bit using WDM-KS. The output was distorted.”
Thank you to JohnB and to Rick for doing these tests.
In my own case, I have had good success on one of the W 10 machines with jOrgan 4 beta 1 and its ALL
backend, when choosing portaudio as the audio driver. The Fluidsynth Properties audio device options were
many, but contrary to both their reports, with WDM-KS I had good sound, and with WASAPI I got the "Unable
to create Fluidsynth" problem message. All the other options gave good sound and latency. I was using
Java 8. Certainly I had to increase the buffer numbers and size to get this result, but not at the expense
of latency, which I judged to be good. I suspect that this W 10 computer has a fast CPU, but I have no
knowledge of its specifications.
All this shows that there is no consistency, and people will just have to use whatever works for them.
At the moment, it is clear that there are excellent options, if people are prepared to choose between
jOrgan 3.20, 3.21, 3.21.1 , or 4.1.0 . Perhaps when Graham returns home from holidays, he will be able
to shed some light.
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2020-12-30 04:31:09
Here is a footnote to my previous post:
On the W 10 computer (with jOrgan 4.beta 1 etc.), I opened a disposition with 3 instances of FS, after
plugging in a USB soundcard (ATR2USB). I made the following selections using portaudio driver and
various audio devices.
With MAN I set to MMM: Speakers (ATR2USB) [[or to WDM-KS Speakers (ATR2USB) (either worked) ]]* and
MAN II and PED both set to MMM: Headphones (High Definition Aud), I had good results with two stereo
channels! (4 audio channels)
That is, MAN I was heard only through the headphones I had plugged into the ATR2USB card, while MAN II
and PED were heard only the the headphones I had plugged into the computer audio output socket.
This may be very good news for people wanting to have multi-channel audio.
However, I got the "Unable to create Fluidsynth" problem message when I tried to use WDM-KS or WASAPI.
JohnR
* See next post.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2020-12-30 05:08:28
Sorry.
I now think my reference in the footnote to the WDM-KS working in one instance (i.e. to the ATR2USB
soundcard) was incorrect. Both WDM-KS and WASAPI produced the "Unable to create Fluidsynth" message.
So you should delete all the material between the double square brackets.
The other (successful) results were correct.
JohnR
NOTE: The posts which follow are actually from another thread, but I have included them here as they
are relevant to the present thread. (JohnR)
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2021-01-09 19:45:25
I have installed jOrgan 3.21 with the Fluidsynth 1.1.11, both 64-bit and I am only given the option of
portaudio for a driver and one choice of device, 21 Windows direct sound Speakers Creative Audigy 2ZS WDM,
and I am not able to load a soundfont at all.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
JohnB
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2021-01-09 22:33:57
JohnB wrote
“I have installed jOrgan 3.21 with the Fluidsynth 1.1.11, both 64-bit”
JohnB,
I assume that you are using Windows 10. We also need to know exactly which backend file you are using.
How do you know that it was FS 1.1.11 which came with jOrgan 3.21? I apologize if my question is simply
showing my ignorance, which is more than possible. ;-)
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2021-01-10 01:01:33
John, yes, I am using Windows 10, 64-bit and with jOrgan 3.21 I tried both Fluidsynth 1.1.11 dsound.
portaudio and the older 1.1.6, and with both, I had the portaudio driver, no option for dsound, and
only one choice of device, the same as with 1.1.11. The 21 Windows direct sound Speakers Creative
Audigy 2ZS WDM.
I have reverted back to jOrgan 4.0 beta 1 which works just fine.
Thanks.
JohnB
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2021-01-10 03:20:55
JohnB wrote
“I have reverted back to jOrgan 4.0 beta 1 which works just fine.”
Hi JohnB,
Thanks for that report. I think that's a good decision, if you feel you can live with the Fluidsynth
Version 2 reverb until (hopefully) they improve it. I was going to suggest that you try installing
jOrgan 3.20, as there have been no problems being reported with it, and I'm not aware of any pressing
reason why 3.21 should be preferred over it. By the way, it has occurred to me that in your previous
post, when you mentioned Fluidsynth 1.1.11, you were referring to the backend and not to Fluidsynth.
There is still the problem of at least one of the Fluidsynth backends set up for download from the
SourceForge site being a folder "within" a folder, and I have been caught out by that issue more than
once, the most recent occasion being yesterday! And this was after becoming re-acquainted with it
only two or three weeks ago. Perhaps this can be remedied for us before long.
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From LeeH on 2021-01-10 05:26:58
I do not have a folder named default to substitute them in to. What am I missing that is supposed
to have this folder?
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2021-01-10 07:15:43
LeeH wrote
“I do not have a folder named default to substitute them in to.”
Hi LeeH,
If you are using Windows, the "default" folder is found in the \Program Files\jOrgan\lib\Fluidsynth\
folder. If Linux or a mac computer, the matter does not arise, in the sense that the backends are for
Windows only. However, in those systems, there will be a "jorgan/lib/" folder where it can be found.
JohnB's method is to replace the existing "default" folder (which has the details needed for dsound),
with another one called that but with the Backend folder there instead. That is not the method
recommended by Graham Goode in his tutorial on using the backends, but it will work if done correctly.
There may be advantages one way or the other, but they are not of great importance.
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2021-09-25 11:32
With this post I am reviving a thread from last Dec/Jan investigating the use of the backends with
Windows 10 computers. I did some further tests a few days ago using a Windows 10 Home Version 20H2,
and came to the conclusion that the results differ somewhat depending on the computer being used
and precisely which version of Windows 10 is installed.
The one clear result I came up with in these recent tests is that for this particular entry-level
computer that I was using, if one wants to use a backend instead of the native dsound, the only version
of jOrgan I could get to work was 4.0 Beta 1 (released only in 64-bit). JohnB and RickW had slightly
more success, namely with jOrgan 3.21 or 3.21.1 , but that success would still have to be called “patchy”,
and does not seem to line up with what GrahamG was expecting.
There is Windows 11 just around the corner. I feel that with any Windows version later than 8.1,
the only safe way to run jOrgan and be confident of having good latency, is to use a computer with a
very capable CPU, and not depend on the backends at all. Or if backends cannot be avoided, then
jOrgan 4.0 beta 1 (or later) should be used, but with no guarantee for multi-channel audio except the
normal 2-channel stereo. I intend to add a notice to Graham G’s backend tutorial advising this choice.
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2021-09-25 17:38
JohnR, I am, still, running Windows 10 64-bit with a 2.9 Ghz CPU, 8 GB RAM and an SSD,
jOrgan 4.0 Beta 1 64- bit with Fluidsynth 2.1.0 Backend by Graham Goode. I have never had it
crash and it causes no problems, whatsoever.
Several months ago, we discussed the problem of Reverb in Fluidsynth 2.1.0, particularly,
the factor of amplitude of the playback of the audible cycle of the looped wave-file by the
LEVEL counter/slider when raised above, approximately, 0.15, when the other counters/sliders,
ROOM, WIDTH and DAMPING are set to 0.0. This is noticeable, and worse so, when any of the
REVERB settings from Concrete Block to Cathedral Church are used, especially, on sustained chords.
If a piece of music moves right along, it is not so much of a problem. I don't know if the folks
at Fluidsynth are aware of this, but it does not seem that they could NOT be, or if anything is
being done to address it. I believe this problem might be intrinsic to looped wave files with
respect to the notion of "steady state." Auto-looping can be the source of the problem, but,
for a while, some years ago, was superior in realism to the sterility of fixed, loop points of
short length, producing steady-state tone as from a continuous-wave, oscillator circuit. I used
to loop all wave files with the same loop points (eg., 508-558, length of 50) to avoid the
annoying modulation. I realize that this was unrealistic, but it avoided the annoying modulation.
I believe there is an ideal length to a wave file and that there are ideal loop points and that
more research needs to be done in regard to the effect that amplitude (Reverb Level, in particular)
has on the modulation in playback. This, really, needs to be addressed. Is REVERB LEVEL, really,
nothing more than amplitude modulation of the looped, wave files in ranks?
It would be difficult to go back to a prior version of jOrgan and Fluidsynth 1.0, simply because of
the fact that I have saved dispositions to the 4.0 Beta 1 and they, of course, are not backward
compatible.
After working with these things for 20 years, I have to say that there is, still, nothing like the
real thing. I have been impressed with much of the sound that I have heard from organists on youtube
who have good Hauptwerk setups. I watch several different, British organists who use it and they
do sound remarkable. I don't know if they ever tried jOrgan or any of the downloadable dispositions.
I don't see a great deal of user material on youtube by jOrgan users.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2021-09-25 17:50
I believe that I, also, made mention, several months ago, of the fact that, in Polyphone Soundfont
Editor, Version 1.9, the REVERB feature which consists of the same elements LEVEL, ROOM, WIDTH and
DAMPING as Fluidsynth in jOrgan, does NOT produce the same effect problem with amplitude modulation
of the wave file. The tone is steady and unmodulated (no audible, cyclical revolution of the looped
wave file) throughout the entire compass of the keyboard when played in Polyphone 1.9. This is as
it should be, and it would be good to know whether later versions of Polyphone which may use
Fluidsynth 2.1.0 have the same problem as in jOrgan 4.0 Beta 1 with Fluidsynth 2.1.0.
JohnB
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-01-31 15:10
Hi all,
The situation has not changed much since September 2021. However, this week,
at a whim, I tried to use BCA's fluidsynth470-portaudio1920-x86-experimental.zip
backend, which I think was overlooked during our earlier tests. After you unzip
it, and get through the lib directory and then the fluidsynth directory, you get
a folder called "fluidsynth-portaudio-x86". This is the folder which needs to be
placed in the /jorgan/lib/fluidsynth folder within your Program Files folder.
Note that it is a 32-bits backend.
As far as I can see, it works perfectly with jOrgan 3.21.1 - which is more than
we can say with most of the other backends we tried. (Using jOrgan 4.0 in our
earlier tests tended to be more successful). In the Fluidsynth Properties I was
offered many options for the Audio devices, and I think this indicates that it has
WASAPI working. Certainly I was able to get two stereo outputs working simultaneously,
using a USB soundcard along with the normal Realtek audio output socket, for a
disposition with more than one instance of Fluidsynth. I did have to increase the
audio buffer settings from what worked with dsound, but this is normal when using
the backends. The latency seemed to be excellent.
I tried to use BCA's other 32-bits backend, which is for those wanting to use jack,
but I did not have success. The problem may reside in how I set jack up, but I
don't know enough to be sure about this.
Best wishes,
JohnR MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-26 12:28 (ADDED FROM ANOTHER THREAD)
Hi all,
I can now report on finding satisfactory solutions for backend use with Windows 10
computers. For 32-bits operation, one of BCA's backends works well (but not provide
for jack or ASIO), as already announced above. For 64-bits, one of Graham Goode's
backends included in the jOrgan 3.21 beta 3 download allows reliable use of portaudio.
I did not test for jack or ASIO.
These details are now in one of two warnings which I have inserted into Graham's
backends tutorial, which can be accessed here:
https://jorgan.info/base/i/Instructions_on_using_the_PortAudio_driver_in_the_Fluidsynth_Extension.html
Best wishes,
John Reimer
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Raw MIDI output from player to loopback
From Julie Porter on 2022-02-01 06:32
I have 100s if not 1000s of MIDI files from bandorgans and theater organs.
Recently I introduced jOrgan to another collector.
My approach is to use a script to create a disposition from an organ
specification which can be an Xl spreasheet. I then convert the MIDI to
the jOrgan text MIDI format.
My acquaintance does not like the jOrgan format as it is not universal.
He was however able with windows to play the raw MIDI files by adding the
custom stop change control codes to the stop tab MPL. His preference is
to use a prebuilt organ like the Christie.
When I try using his disposition nothing happens.
I am on Mac OSX. My acquaintance is on Windows 10. I do have to change
a few things like fluidsynth from dsound to coreaudio. I also have to
change the connector from his loopback name, to my loopback name. I am
using MIDI Patchbay to create the loopback through the built in Network
MIDI setup.
When I load the generic MIDI file. No output is sent to the loopback port.
The built in midi monitor shows no output. I tried an external midi monitor
'Protokol.' It shows the port is open, but no traffic.
If I use an external sequencer, jOrgan sees the input stimulae.
I must be missing something obvious. Where do I enable MIDI pass through on
the player. There seems to be no place to connect this to an output port.
-julie
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-02-01 08:06
Hello Julie
Craig has been in touch with me. He was very excited to find that jOrgan Christie
has MIDI Controller Change Activate and Deactivate messages on each Tab and Console
functions.
I had set these up to directly read MIDI files recorded on the Z-tronics (Johanus)
MIDI sequencer system I have setup on our real Christie Cinema Organ.
Once I gave him the MIDI channels and the stop address listing he was in MIDI heaven,
being able to see and hear all these MIDI files.
I don't yet have my head around how settings in an Excel spreadsheet can bulk change
MIDI channel addressing in a folder of MIDI files, but am keen to work through it.
Now I still need someone to help me use jOrgan MPL to read CC 80/81 Swell messages
and have them control the Fluidsynth Swell volumes and Console indicators.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-02-01 08:12
Hi again Julie
To answer your question.
I use MidiBar MIDI Player outputting to LoopBe with JOrgan getting input
from LoopBe and assigning the correct MIDI channels in the Customizer.
Console Input Connector also needs to be allocated to LoopBe.
jOrgan Christie disposition already has Activate/Deactivate CC 80/81
messages assigned to all Tabs.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Julie Porter on 2022-02-01 09:50
Rick Wrote in an earlier digest;
> Once I gave him the MIDI channels and the stop address listing he was
in MIDI heaven, being able to see and hear all these MIDI files.
Yes he seems quite happy. Sent me his versions of what I already have.
We disagree an the best way to do this. I like to create the organ to
match the recording. That way nothing is lost.
> I don't yet have my head around how settings in an Excel spreadsheet can
bulk change MIDI channel addressing in a folder of MIDI files, but am keen
to work through it.
There are a number of ways to do it. Use the bult in
Excel script language. My preference is for an external scripting tool.
I think Craig uses an external C++ program.
The sheet is exported to a Comma space variable text file aka a CSV.
This is then parsed for the commas.
I use postscript, which is normally used to create printable pages or PDFs.
Postscript has built in binary parsing and can read MIDI. Normally this is
used to create sheet music from a MIDI file.
I find it useful to bulk process both dispositions (as I can read and write
the XML database) and the MIDI files to change the stop stimulae between the
different NRPNs and other ways stops are set.
Python would work just as well, There are libraries for manipulating XML
databases.
> Now I still need someone to help me use jOrgan MPL to read CC 80/81 Swell
messages and have them control the Fluidsynth Swell volumes and Console
indicators.
Not sure why one would bother with CC 80/81 for volume/expression
control CC 7 and CC 11 are a much better way to do this. Console indicators
are best handled with the Hauptwerk type SYSEX messages.
Most of my work is with Uniflex. I am now using Hauptwerk as a backend
(box of ranks.) So I tend to favor Hauptwerk messages myself.
Now for the weird part.
If I set up a simple player app and send the output to "Network Session 1"
the Freedom.Morton.3-10.disposition works just fine as far as input is
concerned. (I still get no output on Network Session 2)
If I load christie_fs_3mp_320_03CLW.disposition I get no input.
I compared the xml and the settings are Identical I set the connector to
"jOrgan Midi Merger" In both. I also set the Manual/Keyboard inputs to
"jOrgan Midi merger." I tried doing this with the customize menu and then
hand editing the XML as saving the XML changes the version from 3.20 to 3.21.1.
christie_fs_3mp_320_03CLW.disposition also acts weird with the soundfonts.
Freedom.Morton.3-10.disposition finds the soundfont in the local folder, the
Audio device and Audio driver are set to blank.
christie_fs_3mp_320_03CLW.disposition insist to set the Audio device to core
audio. (I have to change the driver as the disposition has this set to dsound.)
Now My Christie soundfont is christie_single_10.sf2 as I had an older Christie
installed. As far as I know a soundfont is a soundfont as long as the banks and
patches match.
When I play an external MIDI file into christie_fs_3mp_320_03CLW.disposition
then try to do something like enter the construct mode. The jOrgan hangs. Now
I notice that the soundfont exposed parameters in the xml do differ in things
like interpolate and sample rate. Normally I just change the soundfont paths
to swap a soundfont.
I can not find any key difference that would cause a disposition to Use a different
MIDI interface access point. I even tried setting the version in the header back
to 3.20 (I have not really seen much difference in the actual XML between the recent
versions. My scripts do write XML based on the Freedom.Morton.3-10.disposition as
I used that as a template.
I am finding this simply weird That one disposition works and one does not, Even
though the common configurations are the same.
I also find that it works for Craig on Windows, But does not work on Mac.
-julie
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Julie Porter on 2022-02-01 12:17
It just gets weirder and weirder
I decided to start from scratch. Download the latest christie_fs_3mp_320_03.disposition
I could find online.
Same problem.
I then deleted my modifications and unzipped it again
This time I edited the XML directly. Instead of replacing just the soundfont name I
replaced it with the template from Freedom.Morton.3-10.disposition. I then edited the
reference id's by hand, then changed the font to christie_single_11.sf2.
This was followed by changing all the input names to "jOrgan Midi Merger." Effectively
doing by hand what the customize wizard is supposed to do.
Same problem except now Freedom.Morton.3-10.disposition. will no longer see input midi.
I shut everything down. restart the bootstrap. This time I use the open menu and open
Freedom.Morton.3-10.disposition. not using the recent organ option.
Midi reloads.
Now I have an aha moment. I close bootstrap.
I relaunch jOrgan from the terminal. I then use the open menu to open the hand edited
christie_fs_3mp_320_03.disposition.
Partial success. Midi plays, but is all messed up as the stop stimulae do not match the
input midi file. All the keyboards are set to channel one.
Run the wizard to set keyboard channels.
No MIDI again.
Shut everything down.
Make the changes to a clean copy of christie_fs_3mp_320_03CLW.disposition.
Finally, It plays
So somehow the construct mode is klobbering the midi input driver. What seems to be
happening is that I open a working disposition, I then switch to the disposition I
want to explore and enter construct. This in turn klobbers the midi input driver.
It does not help that apple has removed midi playback from quicktime. I think this
was 32 bit code, and apple only now supports 64 bit. I had to re-compile my simple
midi file player (Which is the core audio demo program, all documentation in japanese.)
to get it to run under Big sur. I suspect that much of this has been outsourced or
licensed. And the licences have expired.
I may have seen this before with the Arduino driver. Sometimes stopping and restarting
after using construct mode, causes the organ to lose all input. Restarting clears
what ever failed and the organ plays again.
None of this is an issue with my custom dispositions as they do no have errors in them.
This still does not address the Loopback issue. I can not seem to get any MIDI out on
any of the sessions. It is sort of annoying to have to launch external programs to play
files. (apart from that one can use a sequencer program what plays from playlists.)
This may be why I decided to simply create native playable files. I am sort of thinking
that there must be some security setting that prevents java from opening an output pipe
to the MIDI network driver.
In a lot of ways this is academic. The only reason I have wasted spent time on this is
to share files with an acquaintance, who has different ideas as to how to play, archive,
and document 1000s of midi files.
Some of these files came from Allen organ Floppy disks. Would love to share them but for
the DMCA. The problem, though, is some of the disks are untitled. So when the data is
recovered, then what? It would be nice to let others listen to them (in private) to
identify what the song is and who's style it is played in. If anyone is interested
I do have a nice little allen emulator that uses the corg.w111.sf2 font. I have not
bothered to code it with Allen NRPNs as I have not looked into the MPL for that as there
are three messages and the first two get 7 bit shifted by the third. The other way to play
the Allen data data direct would be to create a combination file which matches the capxx.syx.
The midi file then uses program changes to set the pistons. where the channel is the division
and the bank is the piston. One would have to set all this up in the combination memory.
This however would only work for Allen performances that do not have embedded stops.
-julie
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-02-01 16:01
This may be nothing but I thought I should mention...
ON ALL the mac OS's you have to shut down jOrgan every time you make a change
in the disposition... the midi will not start again.
It does not make any difference if you start from a command line or not.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Playing external MIDI files
From Craig W on 2022-02-02 06:15
I have been interested in pipe organs and MIDI for a number of years now.
During that time, people have shared with me a large number of MIDI files
mostly from digitized rolls from mechanical musical instruments.These include
several roll-playing residence organ formats from the 1920's. I designed and
built my own MIDI pipe organ interface boards and use them to play several
ranks of pipes in the basement.
Some years ago I looked into jOrgan as a way of seeing the stops I play as
they are sent to my interface boards. I didn't get very far and dropped the
effort. I recently tried again with more success. The key was Rick Whatson's
Christie jOrgan, which I recommend highly. He uses the MIDI control codes 80/81
to turn stops on and off. I too use this scheme because I was given files
generated on a Z-tronics system which used them. I also found the jOrgan WIKI
page on MPL, which finally explained what was what.
With this knowledge, I can now use an external MIDI interface (via the virtual
loopMIDI cables) to play files on jOrgans including the changing of stops.
I have added these MIDI control codes to the Barton 312 jOrgan and, yesterday,
to the Paul Stratman AGO (another magnificent jOrgan). The jOrgan MIDI format
is extremely strange and seems to be intimately tied to a single instrument.
I would be interested in comments about interest in playing external MIDI files
into jOrgans. Adding the MIDI codes for stop changes is not difficult, but it is
tedious. Since I now have a good theater jOrgan and a good classical jOrgan, I am
satisfied. ...unless someone wants to create a jOrgan of a big European band organ.
Can anyone say "Mortier"?
Craig W
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-02 12:28
Craig W said: "I would be interested in comments about interest in playing
external MIDI files into jOrgans. Adding the MIDI codes for stop changes is not
difficult, but it is tedious. Since I now have a good theater jOrgan and a good
classical jOrgan, I am satisfied. ...unless someone wants to create a jOrgan of
a big European band organ. Can anyone say ‘Mortier’?"
Craig, you do not have to spend the time editing the Events list of a .mid file
which you, then, playback via virtual midi cable into a jOrgan disposition. The
easiest way would be to simply playback the .mid file in the external, MIDI
sequencer program, inputting to a jOrgan disposition via virtual midi cable and,
using the recorder in jOrgan, record a disposition-proprietary .mid file, making
stop changes or combination changes as the playback is being done.
You would have to know when and which stop changes you want to make, but jOrgan's
recorder records all the metadata of MIDI MPL and Note-on/Note-off messages and the
disposition-proprietary .mid file can be saved with the title and played back in
that disposition. This would eliminate a lot of the work of editing the event list,
externally.
I am not sure if it is possible to edit the metadata track of a jOrgan disposition-
proprietary .mid file. Can someone on the forum who may know whether this is
possible (as it is in a .mid file), confirm this?
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-02 23:26
I know that, in the past, there was a dedicated track for the metadata of a jOrgan
disposition-proprietary .mid file which contained the particulars of stop changes,
couplers, combinations and other Events that occurred during the playing or recording
of a .mid file. This metadata track is no longer visible for viewing or editing
(if that is possible). I believe it was, at the beginning, on track/channel 16 which,
in General Midi, is reserved for the percussion, along with channel 10. I, also,
know that it was changed and embedded, perhaps, in the channel/track of the division
in which the changes are made.
However, this is not visible at all when loading the disposition-proprietary .mid file
in a MIDI sequencer program where the Conductor window and the individual channel/track
Events can be viewed containing Program Changes (preset or stop changes). All that is
visible are the note-on/note-off messages, NO metadata relative to other events at all.
How is this possible and is it possible to edit the metadata of a jOrgan disposition-
proprietary .mid file, now?
Thanks,
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Dubery on 2022-02-03 00:28
John,
I think the track(s) should be visible - just had a look at one of the midi files
for my Dixon-inspired disposition and each console has a track with its name (as do
the 4 keybords). In those midi files I aimed only to record stop changes &c. for
one instrument per midi file, so only that console track has events - but events
it does have.
It looks like the stop change events are stored as "text" events, with the value
included in the text.
I was using sekaiju running under wine on linux, by the way.
hope this helps.
cheers
John
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Julie Porter on 2022-02-03 06:00
John Beach asked if it is possible to edit the proprietary jOrgan meta controls.
I have been doing this since at least 2016. I use a custom program that was
based on a Windows 95 library called Maximum MIDI written in C++. This book and
source code can be found online. Since the library is in C++ it can be compiled/
ported to other operating systems.
The critical thing is that the proprietary MIDI MUST be in SMF1 format. Any
editor MUST preserve this.
The curious thing about the jOrgan MIDI is that it does not use channels. All
the channels are set to zero (Channel1.) Even the track numbers are arbitrary
and created dynamically and have no correlation with the XML. jOrgan ignores
channels. Any editor, must also do this.
Everything is controlled by brackets in either a raw text message or the sequence
text (which usually starts at the start of a track.) This way numbers larger than
16 can be used.
Sequence name text is important. The number in the brackets needs to match the
XML id of either the keyboard, or the console (main skin) In my custom dispositions
I set this by hand. Usually this text is set to 'untitled' or track1. This can not
be changed or stripped out.
The track with the 'console' contains raw text messages. I usually use a sequence
name of 'Console [9000]' for my hand edited files.
The text before the first bracket is a comment.
In my custom I reserve 5000 for the keyboards so the sequence name for a manual track
would be 'Great [5001]' "Accomp [5002]' etc. Note this must match the Keyboard id
in the XML. Again the readable text is a comment this can be goblegook and jOrgan
would not care. There is a key in the XML called <description> that I think generates this.
Since jOrgan dynamically allocates the XML id values based on an internal database,
these can wind up being one of the normally used control or drum tracks. This number
can also be larger than 16.
Text messages are simple and are always in the console track. These start with
'<, +. or -' '<' is used for analog controls like swell shades the parameter is
a floating point between 0 and one. Next is a comment then the XML id for the
controller. Note how this can control any anolog value in the system.
'+ and -' set stops. Again the first character of a raw text meta is followed by
a comment. The brackets then contain the XML ref of the stop id.
I think the issue is most MIDI editors tend to link the channel and the track. It has
been ages since I used cakewalk or sonar. I think this sort of thing is done to allow
overdubbing. Each track can have 16 channels so there must be a way to handle this in
an intuitive manner.
Windows sort of uses the first track as a control or tempo track. I know a lot of
conversion programs write the saved MIDI into these formats. As long as the sequence
names at the start of a track are not changed the track can be edited. One could even
changed all the events in say track 2 with track 7 and the playback would be the same.
If the sequence name at the start of track 2 was swapped with track 7 then the keyboards
would be swapped (provided no events were changed.)
All of this takes some experience to edit and the learning curve is a bit steep. It is
possible as I have done it.
-julie
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Craig W on 2022-02-04 03:30
Everything Julie said about jOrgan internal MIDI files is correct. However
it is possible (if tedious) to edit the MIDI text messages that do all the
controls. I have used an old version of Cakewalk for years. If I open a jOrgan
MIDI file, I can find a track full of MIDI text messages. As Julie mentioned,
they are in basically 2 flavors. The first is stop changes looking like this:
+ Open Diapason 16 [12]
"+" to turn on, "-" to turn off. The other category is for continuous variables:
<0.30 sw.expression [30]
In Cakewalk, I can easily edit these text messages, duplicate them, change their
location (musical time in the file), or create new ones. If I were really wishing
to do this, I would create a text file of all the stops, have it open in a text
editor, and copy-and-paste the entries into the Cakewalk display.
You see what I mean - possible but tedious
There is a set of very good classical jOrgan MIDI files associated with the
DixonInspired jOrgan. Even if you do not wish the organ, the MIDI files are a good
example of what I am talking about:
DixonInspired r2178.zip
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1szi3eIztIdEF75y7ooUopo8E6yTCWvgD/view?usp=sharing
DixonInspired-MIDIFiles r2173.zip
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GVnwS7fCNjxVRC3K4iFUwKcudL-aWpRa/view?usp=sharing
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Craig W on 2022-02-04 05:40
My last post about changing jOrgan MIDI text events was not quite correct. The
DixonInspired MIDI files do have these text events mostly on MIDI track 7. But
more text events are on track 0, where they can't be seen by Cakewalk. If someone
can come up with a document thoroughly explaining the jOrgan MIDI scheme everyone
might become enlightened.
Craig W
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
External vs internal MIDI: Band Organs
From Julie Porter on 2022-02-03 06:29
Band organs are a special case. These use something called lock and cancel.
The late Rich Olsen wrote a disposition for a Mortier. I have a copy. He spent
a lot of time working on a similar one for a wurlitzer 165. Was working on this
at the time of his death. Asked questions here. Which is how I found this group.
I am more than happy to share any of this. Even to the point of sampling a Mortier
and creating a soundfont. I do not think his website is no longer online.
It might be possible to upload this to github (as dispositions are programs written
in XML.) They are a bit plain, as Rich never wrote skins. A project high on my
procrastination list.
The most practical way to play a band organ IS from an external MIDI file. Or a
roll frame connected to a MIDI system.
Lock and cancel is implemented through an 'activator' group using the combination
memory systems.
Band organs are simple. they use 4 or 5 locks and a general cancel. Theater organs
use 14 or 20 locks and 3 or 5 cancels called pilots. Expression levels are
controlled through a similar separate lock/cancel system.
When one converts the raw midi to a playable midi. All of the combination events
are lost. (Midi does not normally record piston events.) Some formats like Allen
use program change 0xC0 to record piston presses. These do require the combination
system to be active and fully programmed during playback.
Playing external MIDI into jOrgan is a practical way to do the conversion. In effect
this is what my external scripts simulate.
The downside is one now has two MIDI files. One the original or archive version that
is an image of the roll. The second is now an ephemeral copy. This also doubles
the storage space needed. If one uses other relays like Uniflex or Hauptwerk, these
also have internal recording formats. With a large collection of performances and
roll copies it can get quite out of hand to track everything, Especially when files
from floppies are named SONG01.MID or TRACK03.MID.
Most users only have a dozen or so songs they like to demonstrate. The internal
player is fine for this.
For playing through a jukebox, or a playlist sequencer an external player is
more advantageous.
Virtual MIDI loopback is a great way to connect all of this together.
-julie
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Craig W on 2022-02-03 08:39
I wrote programs years ago to decode the lock-and-cancel scheme of band organs
to stop-on/stop-off as needed by pipe organs, including jOrgan. I have a conversion
program, driven by a simple text table, to change the stop numbers to match the
destination organ. For instance, I converted a library of Wurlitzer 150 files to
play on the Christie organ. Creating the matching table took, perhaps, half an hour.
Converting 236 files took less than a minute. Not the correct sound, of course,
but I don't have a disposition for a Wurlitzer 150.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-02-03 11:26
Greetings:
This website seems to have a lot to offer in conversion and playing of Band Organ etc. files.
https://midimusic.github.io/tech/eplayOrgan.html
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-03 12:05
Hi Marc-Paul,
Thank you for that link. It appears to be highly relevant. But I am sure that the
jOrgan MIDI file system will give the creator quite a few challenges if he can be
persuaded to include jOrgan in his collection of organs for the translation process.
Perhaps Craig W already has a system which he is willing to share with us. I for
one am very interested. I have in the distant past used John Beach's method to create
jOrgan-suitable MIDI files, and I use these plus those of others to play much later
dispositions, but like JohnB, I have to do the stop selection in real time. And I
wonder how that method (and indeed any translation process) will cope authentically
with swell box changes.
Having said all that, I have high hopes that Craig and others will be able to help us
lift our game when it comes to using the jOrgan Recorder more completely.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-03 13:47
Julie, in inputting a .mid file from an external midi sequencer program to a jOrgan
disposition via virtual midi cable, the channel numbers of the divisions that are
assigned in the Customizer of jOrgan for that disposition must be specified for
input to the proper division in the channel/tracks of the .mid file being played
back in the midi sequencer program. It is true that jOrgan outputs a .mid file and
for the specified divisions assigns channel 1 to all the divisions.
This is difficult to understand since there would be no point to division/channel
assignments in the Customizer if it were not purposeful and relative to referencing.
There must be some metadata that differentiates the channels assigned "on the fly"
and the concept of divisions with their couplers which are referenced to keyboards
and to which (couplers) are referenced the stops of the division.
I believe that Sven gave us a cursory explanation of the creation of a subset of
instrument tracks for the number of stops drawn in a division, to which all the
note-on/note-off messages, tremulant and couplers engaged, are output on a single
channel. I don't recall from the concept of hardware daisy-chaining whether a
Program Change on the main MIDI Controller outputs that Program Change number to
the daisy-chained instruments or whether they can be individually set to play other
sounds than, say, the default Acoustic Piano (01).
What are important are the note-on/note-off messages to all the instruments that
are desired to play together.
I know nothing of music notation xml.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Julie Porter on 2022-02-03 16:44
John Beach wrote:
> Julie, in inputting a .mid file from an external midi sequencer program to a jOrgan
> disposition via virtual midi cable, the channel numbers of the divisions that are
> assigned in the Customizer of jOrgan for that disposition must be specified for input
> to the proper division in the channel/tracks of> the .mid file being played back in
> the midi sequencer program.
I do not think proprietary jOrgan midi can be looped back through an external sequencer.
Proprietary jOrgan MIDI need to use the SMF1 meta escape to work.
> It is true that jOrgan outputs a .mid file and for the specified divisions assigns channel 1 to all the
> divisions. This is difficult to understand since there would be no point to division/channel
> assignments in the Customizer if it were not purposeful
The metadata is raw text 0xFF 0x03 as I recall. This only occurs in the SMF. This is
quite difficult to understand. The meta data relates to the internal numbers in the
disposition. I must not have been clear on that. The numbers in the MIDI meta relate
to the numbers in the dispositon.
> ... and the concept of divisions with their couplers which are referenced to keyboards
> and to which (couplers) are referenced the stops of the division.
Couplers are separate data entries in the disposition, They have nothing to do with the MIDI.
Midi sees these as simply another stop tab.
> I believe that Sven gave us a cursory explanation of the creation of a subset of
> instrument tracks for the number of stops drawn in a division, to which all the
> note-on/note-off messages, tremulant and couplers engaged, are output on a single channel.
I had to work this out on my own. The MPL uses some fixed name variables to represent the
MIDI events. These use a sort of Boolean and algebraic notation to match across the input
template. Somehow the program handles the channels dynamically.
> I don't recall from the concept of hardware daisy-chaining whether a Program Change on the main
> MIDI Controller outputs that Program Change number to the daisy-chained instruments or whether
> they can be individually set to play other sounds than, say, the default Acoustic Piano (01).
This seems to be mixing metaphors and abstractions a bit. There does seem to be a tendency to
depend on Program change events. Especially in the world of General MIDI, where channel 1 is
usually acoustic piano. Such would be the case when a GM.sf2 is loaded into fluidsynth. Most
dispositions tend to use the Miditzer fonts, where the ranks are on specific patches. This
is sort of hidden in the MPL, where the rank output uses the program change and bank select to
choose what to use. Often there are two different rank samples for trem or reiterate that are
offset by a fixed amount. The MPL adds this in as needed.
I guess one could think of program changes as sort of a ventil control where the keys are
directly connected to the chest and there is no relay. The chest either has wind going to
it or not.
The input side is a bit more complex. The customiser seems to affect the midi stimulus that
engages or disengages the stop or the key. This is the only place where the channels are
fixed from the external world.
> What are important are the note-on/note-off messages to all the instruments that are
desired to play together.
Well that is basically what the relay does. In this case jOrgan itself. The weakness,
is that jOrgan can not feed the player information back into the MPL parser. This would
imply that the player does not use MPL to turn on stops or notes. Instead it parses the
MIDI for text events, which then call the engage and disengage functions direct. Such
does seem strange as a normal external MIDI will load into a single track and show data,
One would think that some of the event data like program change, bank select or NRPN would
be passed to the MIDI input parser. I guess this would require an internal loopback. Since
there are plenty of external loopbacks used, the simpler approach was used. This still
does not address the apparent bug in OSX that there is no midi pass through from the player
to the customizer.
I have not yet set up a midi output rank which would take the place of the fluid synth output.
Fairly low on the procrastination list and somewhat academic as I have a working translator
from and to normal MIDI and proprietary jOrgan MIDI.
> I know nothing of music notation xml.
I think you are confusing the disposition which is also written in xml. So are most web
pages as html is a subset of xml. Hauptwerk also uses xml to represent it's internal
settings. XML stands for eXtended Markup Language. It is basically a representation of
a database flattened. A database uses a key, which jOrgan calls an id. This in turn points
to a value which is the stop number. A third abstraction is called an observer. This is
called when ever a key or a value changes. Almost all programming these days which is now
called coding is setting up front ends to this sort of database. A proprietary way of
accessing these types of databases is called SQL for System Query Language, which is owned
and licensed by Oracle. XML is sort of the public domain variant.
I have only dabbled with music notation xml. I tend to use postscript and ABC music notation
when I need to represent a score on a page. I can see where confusion can happen. Xml is
quite a broad term. I think with the delays of MIDI2.0 there have been attempts to modernize
music representation, to make it more web friendly. Xml is popular at present as it can be
both machine readable, and edited by hand.
As for the topic under consideration here we are dealing mostly with MIDI. jOrgan does use xml
to store dispositions, combination memory, and skins. These all have to work together.
-julie MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Sound Clips
From JohnR on 2022-02-08 14:32
Hi all,
In my opinion, Jan Flikweert has done us a favour in putting up a number of
sound clips over the past month or two. I think that we do not do enough to
showcase the sounds and music which jOrgan can bring to us. Therefore, I am
following his example by putting on One Drive a 4 minutes clip of the Norden
Schnitger VPO playing one of John Dubery's fine jOrgan MIDI files: the Bach
BWV 577 Gigue Fugue. I have set the speed at 80% of John's settings, which I
do with most of the MIDI files I have tried recently. That probably reflects my age.
It is a light-hearted piece, and I have chosen the stops accordingly.
The fugue is played on one manual only, plus the pedals. I have used the following stops:
HW Rohrfloit 8, Gemshorn 2
BW Quinta 1 1/3 coupled to the HW
PD Principal 16, Octave 8, Trommet 8
The Wind Destabiliser is activated.
The Fluidsynth Reverb settings are:
Level 0.13, Room 0.95, Damping 0.3, Width 1.
There is no need to download the file, although you can certainly do that if you wish.
To play it, simply click on the PLAY icon at the bottom of the screen.
Here is the link:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AoDEzh-_jHej8SFcesE4Yv5K8ANF?e=HCyIii
I do hope that other users will bring us other sound clips to enjoy. jOrgan has a wealth
of VPO's and MIDI files well worth sharing.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-08 19:51
JohnR wrote: "a 4 minutes clip of the Norden Schnitger VPO playing"
Hi John, hi all,
Thanks John for your clip.
It is really amazing good! I listened first with my old headphone and later
through the speaker of my digital organ.
A very nice stereo effect! Looking at the volume meter in audacity no red or
yellow parts. The reverb is almost perfect. This will do for Bach, for
Baroque.
There remains one question: The reverb at the end of this clip sounds
strange.
The required reverb depends on the kind of music you play.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-02-09 00:17
JohnR., Is there a dedicated One Drive domain for the uploading of jOrgan
disposition recordings or do we, each, have to create an account and provide
a link for every piece that is uploaded? If it is possible to have a dedicated
One Drive, it seems as if that would be the preferable way "to showcase the
sounds and music which jOrgan can bring to us."
Nice recording! I am curious as to whether the reverb settings in jOrgan are
dependent on the hardware or if we will have a fairly consistent result with the
effect settings being the same. It would be good to know if we are achieving
the same results for equal settings. I have noticed that with Creative Labs
EAX (Environmental Audio Extension), the Fluidsynth Reverb effect is, noticeably,
changed depending on whether the "Enable Audio Effects" is check with a particular
setting (Cathedral, for example) of unchecked, in which case only Fluidsynth
Reverb creates the effect.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-09 19:48
Jan and JohnB,
Thank you for taking the time to listen to the sound clip and to post your comments.
@Jan,
I think what is happening at the end is due to the fact that the Fluidsynth reverb
definitely attenuates the low frequency end of the spectrum. I noticed this quite
some time ago. Les Knoll said something to the same effect in a fairly recent post.
This is not very noticeable during playing, but it is obvious after the final chord.
In fact I think this turns to our advantage. A reverberative building acts as a huge
low-pass filter, favouring the low frequencies and attenuating the high. If such
reverberation is applied to organ stops AFTER they have been regulated (as when
creating a soundfont), the final sound is likely to be bottom-heavy, muddy and lacking
in brightness. So in practice, the Fluidsynth reverb will tend not to produce that
effect. The Fluidsynth reverb creators may even have designed it with that in mind.
@JohnB,
As far as I know, One Drive and others like it are linked with users' other accounts
such as Microsoft or Google. It may be possible to have shared use with a stipulated
group of people, but it would probably be cumbersome to administer. One way to have a
central site would be as an addition to the Gallery page of the jOrgan Discovery
website. The relevant link information could be sent to me by email, or perhaps
better, by an post to the Mailing List, and I could update the website accordingly.
I don't think I would be snowed under by contributions, judging by past events. In
practice, I think I would limit the length of time contributions were left on the
site, not only to avoid it becoming too long and possibly out of date, but any
contributions which do not really give a good example of jOrgan capabilities would
eventually disappear, with no-one having to be embarrassed about it.
Regarding FLuidsynth being used along with the EAX reverb, since the latter is very
good by all accounts, my opinion is that it is better to use just one or the other.
It is a simple matter to have both available and to disable one of them as the needs
arise.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-10 00:52
John R., Thanks for your input.
JohnR. said:
".... due to the fact that the Fluidsynth reverb definitely attenuates the
low frequency end of the spectrum. ......In fact I think this turns to our
advantage. A reverberative building acts as a huge low-pass filter, favouring
the low frequencies and attenuating the high. If such reverberation is applied
to organ stops AFTER they have been regulated (as when creating a soundfont),
the final sound is likely to be bottom-heavy, muddy and lacking in brightness.”
My comment:
I noticed this also, and I played a .mid file of the BWV 577 with one of my
homemade dispositions, using the exact same stops you stated you had used in
making your recording of it. I, purposefully, set the volume of the bass octave
samples (from MIDI note #s 12 to 35, the 32', 16 Hz and 16' foot octaves,
32 Hz) at 70% since they tend to attenuate with Fluidsynth.
I, also, have individual, slider, volume controls for each division which can be
regulated, individually, or by an "All volumes to Main." This allows the Pedal
stops to be set at any differential level from the manuals, depending on the balance.
JohnR. said:
"One way to have a central site would be as an addition to the Gallery page of the
jOrgan Discovery website. The relevant link information could be sent to me by email,
or perhaps better, by an post to the Mailing List, and I could update the website
accordingly. I don't think I would be snowed under by contributions, judging by past
events. In practice, I think I would limit the length of time contributions were left
on the site, not only to avoid it becoming too long and possibly out of date, but any
contributions which do not really give a good example of jOrgan capabilities would
eventually disappear, with no-one having to be embarrassed about it."
My comment:
I think this idea (a central site as an addition to the Gallery Page of jOrgan
Discovery website) is preferable to the use of One Drive, simply because it will
be a fixed site and page where this is known to the forum members and a posting of a
One Drive link, relative to each individual's posting will not be necessary.
JohnR. said:
"Regarding FLuidsynth being used along with the EAX reverb, since the
latter is very good by all accounts, my opinion is that it is better to
use just one or the other. It is a simple matter to have both available
and to disable one of them as the needs arise."
My comment:
I agree completely.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-02-10 04:37
Hello John B...
You mentioned:
“I have noticed that with Creative Labs EAX (Environmental Audio Extension),
the Fluidsynth Reverb effect is, noticeably, changed depending on whether
the ‘Enable Audio Effects’ is check with a particular setting (Cathedral,
for example) of unchecked, in which case only Fluidsynth Reverb creates the
effect.”
I found that a two stage reverb implementation gave better results for what
I was trying to achieve. I found if I started with a small amount of
digital reverb on the mixing board and the tailored the EAX with its 22
controls for reverb, I could achieve a reverberant bass and midrange without
the screechy highs.
Is that the kind of idea you are talking about?
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-02-10 10:36
I have also found this different effect for low frequencies and high frequencies
in Fluidsynth Reverb.
It is for this reason that for more than 10 years I have set up the jOrgan Christie
Cinema Organ disposition with at least 2x Fluidsynth Elements. This allows different
Reverb Settings and Volumes for Pedal Ranks and Keyboard Ranks.
My quest with jOrgan has always been to be able to share a single application that
is pre-configured as much as possible to give the best possible sound without
requiring another user to add hardware or extra software to give a pleasing result.
I fully understand the "extras" can offer improvements, but not everybody has the
resources or the time to work through setting all of this up.
It has also been my hope that the jOrgan Windows installer could be updated to at
least follow Windows 7 security and install file placement guidelines, and could
test for java compatibility on install.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-10 13:28
Marc-Paul, I don't have a problem with "screechy highs." In the Samples Pool of
the Soundfont, I set the "Change Volume" of the Tools>Sample, graduating the
attenuation from the bass to the treble by a decrease of 10% per octave. With
this graduation, at the upper octaves from Midi note 96 to 120 for the highest
footages, the volume level is reduced to a mere 5%. They are still audible, but
they do not "screech."
For the mixture ranks, which are separate soundfonts, due to the concept of
"breaking back," I keep the volumes of all the Samples at 40% for the principal
mixtures and for the dulciana mixtures I set the volume at 20%. I, also, keep
the attacks of all mixture ranks the same, that is, they are, all, set for
attacks at .001 with releases set for the specific footage. This way, the attacks
of all mixture ranks speak at the same time, together. Because of the layering
of mixture ranks, the volumes--per note--tend to be louder than stops of a single
rank. With the exceptions of dulcianas, lieblich flutes, aeoline, etc., (the
softest ranks), I start the volume of an 8' rank's samples at 60%
(Tools>Sample>Change Volume) for Midi note 36 and 10% for the note 96.
I don't know if there is a treatise written on the proper voicing of an organ.
So my techniques have been developed, very subjectively, according to how it sounds
to me. I do know that Audsley in his two volume "The Art of Organ Building",
states that each rank footage, starting with the octave ranks above the prime
tone (8') footages, should decrease 10% in loudness. There is, also, a general
rule of a 6dB decrease in volume per octave, upon which this percentage of decrease
is based. Considering the means of transportation that were available to Audsley
during his lifetime, I think the wealth of experience he gained in seeing and
hearing so many of the world's most significant organs is astounding. The extent
to which he makes specific observations concerning obscure aspects of so many stops
in so many different organs is, also, astounding!
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-10 17:38
JohnB wrote: “I do know that Audsley in his two volume ‘The Art of Organ
Building’, states that each rank footage, starting with the octave ranks
above the prime tone (8') footages, should decrease 10% in loudness.”
Hi all,
The Reverberate2 plugin uses two input channels and with for each an
equalizer. There you find low frequencies for churches/cathedrals lowered a
few decibel. The post equalizer after chorus and split-mode can correct
this.
Can this reverb issue be caused by the loop-mode? I cut-off at the end of
the loop. In Polyphone is the part after the loop red marked. Fluid-synth
creates the reverb from this loop.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-10 20:54
JohnB wrote: "I am curious as to whether the reverb settings in jOrgan are
dependent on the hardware or if we will have a fairly consistent result with
the effect settings being the same."
Hi all,
To compare I placed three chords in a wave file.
First two from a midi file played with Schnitger Preview from John Reimer.
Used same fluidsynth reverb settings except first width reverb 50, second
width 100. Third the last chord from the recording of John Reimer. Used same
stops.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CBoeggDXyTeJJUidA8oLQkm9r5e4qYal/view?usp=sharing
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-10 21:59
Jan,
I find it hard to relate the 3rd recording to the other two, as it is such
a different sound. But regarding the first two, I think I prefer the first,
because I think I perceive some sort of "difference" between the basic sound
and the reverberation, a difference which seems to be absent in the second.
It strikes me that there should BE some kind of difference. What 50% Width
means (I think) is that the reverb content is restricted to less than the
full space between the two loudspeakers. Therefore it will sound somehow
"different" and so, more natural.
But I have to admit that we are talking about something that is quite
subtle, and not obvious.
I would be interested to hear what others, including yourself, think about
what I am trying to describe.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-10 23:14
Jan, of the 3 recordings, I think the second is most realistic of a large space,
such as a cathedral. The first is good for a very small space, and the last
sounded synthetic and unrealistic.
John B.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-10 23:42
Jan, I don't believe that the problem with the amplitude modulation caused by
increasing the LEVEL element of Fluidsynth REVERB is due to the length of the
looped steady-state portion of the wave files in the soundfont. There is a
specific point/value setting (approx. 0.12 of LEVEL) where the amplitude
modulation becomes noticeable and a problem. The higher the value of the
setting, the worse it becomes. Below that value (between 0 and .12) the effect
is not present, but there is no significant REVERB, either.
Obviously, the problem is in attempting to, electronically, alter the
spatialization parameters to emulate a certain size of bounded area or space.
The flaw is in the use of the amplitude modulation parameter for LEVEL.
Amplitude increases should not affect modulation. The unmodulated steady-state
of a wave file should not vary with a modulation frequency that increases
relative to the increase in the correlative parameters of width, room size and
damping.
Actually, the problem is detectable is the width, room (size) and damping
parameters are, all, values of 0 (zero). You, merely, have to raise the value
of the LEVEL and you can hear the onset of amplitude modulation that is unrealistic.
I think my question to the developers of the Fluidsynth Reverb would be, why did
they use (or have to use) that particular parameter for LEVEL? This may have
something to do with the concept of the REVERB Size being variable, as a matter
of convenience to users, rather than a determined, bounded (wall-limited) space
with fixed reverb charactistics that remain the same for any given organ in its
own environment. Still, there must be a way to stop the amplitude modulation
while maintaining the quality of reverb. This may mean using recorded-pipe samples
with the ambient reverberation of the space in which the organ is situated, and
then, NOT using Fluidsynth Reverb at all.
Does anyone know what the REVERB in Polyphone Soundfont Editor is? It has the same
four parameters as Fluidsynth Reverb, but it does NOT have the problem of amplitude
modulation that jOrgan Fluidsynth has. Has anyone else, also, noticed this fact?
If you set the Reverb in Polyphone (Menu, Settings>Synth>Reverb and Chorus) to the
same settings as the Reverb in jOrgan Fluidsynth, you do NOT get the problem of
amplitude modulation that is related the the jOrgan Fluidsynth LEVEL parameter.
I don't know if Dave Triponney is, still, monitoring the postings on this forum or
if he is, still, a member, but, if he is, perhaps, he would comment on the differences
in Reverb if, in fact, Polyphone's Reverb is not the same as Fluidsynth as used in
jOrgan. Again, this problem did seem to be related to the latest version of
Fluidsynth and had not been a problem in previous releases.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-11 00:23
John B wrote:The first is good for a very small space, and the last sounded
synthetic and unrealistic.
and
JohnR wrote:I would be interested to hear what others, including yourself,
think about what I am trying to describe.
Hi all,
Very funny.
I should describe it as follows:
I prefer the third. The sound is clear, the quint sounds good, but must
agree with JohnB that the reverb sounds not good.
I used the same settings. So the difference does not fit. John R are you
sure your soundcard does not process things?
For Baroque I do not prefer a cathedral, I prefer the third reverb. That is
the difference between Baroque and Romantic. Baroque is phlegmatic,
rational. Romantic is not rational but from feeling.
Regarding Psalm 147 some prefer romantic. That is for me a bridge to far.
Regarding the loop remark:
Let us say you have a sample
Length 100000 spls
Loop at 40000-50000
With your favorite release point at the end
From which part of the sample does fluidsynth create its reverb?
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-11 08:20
Jan and JohnB,
This is not a good result for a comparison test - there was no consensus at all.
I think the problem is that we all had different expectations, so we were actually
listening for different things.
By the way, the FS parameter Width has nothing to do with the width of the room.
It is referring to how wide a space the reverb content takes up within the sound
stage between the two loudspeakers.
JohnB's long post seems to be about FS Version 2. Any recordings I make use FS 1.
My guess is that Polyphone uses FS 1 as its sound engine.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-11 11:38
Jan Flikweert wrote:
"John R are you sure your soundcard does not process things?"
Jan,
The recording was made with an RPi, and no extra soundcard or effects were used.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-11 18:21
JohnR wrote:"The recording was made with an RPi"
Hi John,
That is amazing good. So small device and such a good sound. We need no
great disposition, you do not need much stops. Keep in mind that the result
is amazing and we are talking about a little detail of one second.
So I should look at my side.
I used portaudio/Creative ASIO Withouth Clever Volume management,Equaliser,
Cristallyzer and EAX. Disabled side effects. No routing of 5.1 channels.
I downloaded your Schnitger preview and played from a midi file accompanying
this disposition and used the same setting for reverb. I recorded using the
"what u hear" and the recording function of the mixer of my soundcard.
SoundBlaster X-Fi xtreme music.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl. MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
MIDI-OX scripts
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-09 20:10
Hi all,
I want to state that there is a nice scripting option in MIDI-OX.
This scripting unfortunate does not matter routing, but matters
receiving sending messages(SYSX too) through MIDI.
I managed to send/receive midi messages using this MIDI-OX script,
Visual Foxpro(VFP) and Windows 10 64 bit. VFP is not the most modern
programming language but it works. Now I am going to test it.
Probably for some issues handy aside jOrgan.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
New jOrgan Recordings
From Les Knoll on 2022-02-12 13:44
I have just revisited Graham Goode's 3/12 Redford Theater Barton disposition
voiced by Gary Schwartz. I am familiar with the sample set on this instrument
because I initially worked on a disposition for a smaller Barton for Graham,
and the original Redford Barton is a near carbon copy of the 3/10 at the Uptown
Theater in Milwaukee which I played for shows and used for broadcast recording
while in college. I have 'borrowed' several of the Barton's soundfont ranks
for my own personal 3/23 soundfont which is about as diverse as George Wright's
Pasadena organ.
I decided to have a go at the Barton "as-is" and see how playable it would be
from my own 3 manual console. I was pleasantly surprised at the sound! What
comes out of my sound system is easily recognizable as a Barton, and I was
transported back to my college days. Great job, Graham and Gary.
Of course, I couldn't leave well enough alone, so to add some extra body while
still retaining the pleasant 'hooty' flavor, I swapped out the Barton Tibia with
a Robert Morton Tibia, also by Graham Goode. The resulting instrument has more
body, and just plain sounds bigger. I did some research into the Redford Barton
itself and found out how its stop list compares to the disposition. The
disposition includes two additional ranks, a pair of Solo Strings and the
additions made since the 1928 installation, namely a 16' Tuba extension and
Piano. There is also a good amount of additional unification added in the
disposition that the Bartola Musical Instrument Company never dreamed of but
makes for a more playable instrument by today's standards.
Just for fun, I took the soundfonts and disposition and returned them to the
actual Redford Theater Barton specification, including restoring ranks to their
original compass (keeping the 16' Tuba that was later installed) and omitting
ranks that were never installed in the theater. I also edited the soundfonts,
panning the ranks into their original chambers as installed in the Redford.
The result was REALLY recognizable as a Barton organ. Registrations I used at
the Uptown Barton, quirks and all, came alive again as I played that Barton
organ in my own home studio.
I was so taken by the instrument I decided to make a direct-to-digital recording
of Buddy Johnson's "Since I Fell for You." Not usual theater organ fare, but it
takes to the instrument rather well, I think. I understand there is a place where
artists can post their jOrgan recordings. I do not know if they are accepted by
Contrabombarde, but I would like to get this and other recordings from jOrgan
instruments, both this Barton and my 3/23 "Special," out and heard. I would
appreciate any information as to where I could post these jOrgan recordings. We
jOrgan players would like to show the community that there are instruments beyond
Hauptwerk , and I would like to show that there is untapped theater organ repertoire
beyond the American songbook.
Les Knoll
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-02-12 15:39
Everyone Interested in Posting Tracks:
Why don't we start posting tracks to SoundCloud... I don't know how many "free"
tracks can be uploaded... but there are Organ Tracks available there.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-12 16:42
Les and all,
I also was going to suggest SoundCloud - which is where all of the jOrgan Discovery
website Gallery files are kept. But in addition, I would suggest that Les register
with The Organ Forum, and send there in the Theatre Organ Music sub-sub-forum a post
where you describe briefly what the tracks are, and what the links to SoundCloud are.
Of course, clips which we put up for the Mailing List can be stored anywhere, as long
as you tell us the links when you post, here.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Steve R on 2022-02-12 18:15
Hello Les.
I have both Barton soundfont and I do enjoy both but, would like to try your soundfont.
Also here in Cornwall UK you will find some of George Wright's Pasadena organ that will
form part of our 3/20 Wurlitzer.
Regards
Steve R MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Sending midi codes to jorgan from a python program
From Alfons Van Daele on 2022-02-15 08:52
Dear all,
I have a small pipe organ. I added switches (using hall effect transistor)
to my keyboard that I read from an embedded arduino device. The arduino device
is connected via and Usb port to my computer. I can read the information with
a python program.
Now I would like to use a python program to send midi signals to the jOrgan
program on my computer (linux system).
The whole idea is to be able to use the keyboard of my pipe organ as an input
to jOrgan so that I can combine playing the pipe organ and the jOrgan on the
computer.
I have no idea how I could do this.
Any help is appreciated!
Alfons Van Daele
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-02-15 14:05
Welcome to jOrgan
There are Arduino and Teensy boards (along with many other systems) that create
a USB MIDI interface. These devices are recognised by the computer (Linux also)
as Musical devices, and therefore show up as Available MIDI Devices in the jOrgan
Customizer.
These devices can be custom programmed to send any MIDI message for both digital
and analog inputs.
Trying to connect to jOrgan by any other form of communication would probably
require some form of programming some type of interface.
jOrgan can be connected to by a (recognised) MIDI device as I mentioned, and also
as a Virtual MIDI cable. I don't personally know what software provides a virtual
MIDI cable in Linux. In Windows there is LoopBe and another I can't think of the
name at the moment related to MidiOx.
Regards
Rick.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-15 17:32
AlfonvD wrote:Now I would like to use a python program to send midi signals to the
jOrgan program on my computer (linux system).
Hi all,
It can be done in Python using rtmidi. This is done in Windows. In Linux you can use
qjackctl and aconnectgui and qjackctl.
import rtmidi
from rtmidi.midiutil import open_midiinput
midiout = rtmidi.MidiOut()
midiout01=rtmidi.MidiOut()
midiout01.open_port(alp1)
msg_str = [0xb0 - 1 + int(registers[teller1].chnl), 7, 0]
registers[teller1].dvc.send_message(msg_str)
Here a link to a python rt-midi variant: python-rtmidi · PyPI
(https://pypi.org/project/python-rtmidi/)
I am not sure if there are different rtmidi's for Python.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-15 17:36
Alfons and Rick, except for inputting MIDI to jOrgan from an external MIDI
sequencer program, in normal playing from a hardware, MIDI instrument via a
USB MIDI interface, (a hardware cable), you would not need a virtual MIDI
cable such as Loopbe.
Virtual MIDI cables are used to output from one program to another on the computer,
comparable to "daisy-chaining" hardware MIDI instruments. In jOrgan, the USB MIDI
interface (usually the OEM name of the device, MIDI cable or PCI sound card synths,
Realtek or another OEM) is identified by the computer and jOrgan. This identification
is seen in the Customizer of jOrgan, as synth MIDI IO numbers, if they are enumerated
devices in the View>Configuration>MIDI, and they are (must be) check-marked in
View>Configuration>Midi-Merger among the devices available, identified as MIDI IO
devices (the Soundcard input-output devices).
From what you have described concerning your pipe organ setup, you already have what
you need in terms of inputting MIDI data from the keyboard to your computer via the
USB MIDI interface. Does the Arduino device transmit and receive the serial data?
https://www.arduino.cc/en/Reference/SoftwareSerial
I know nothing about Arduino, but it seems that
https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_libs_AltSoftSerial.html might provide you some
information and there is, also, this site which might be of help:
https://github.com/PaulStoffregen/AltSoftSerial
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Alfons Van Daele on 2022-02-16 23:08
Dear Rick,
Thank you for your reply. This is an interesting path.
I have some Arduino boards and a Teensy 4.0 and Teensy 2.0. And some other ones
(like Seeeduino Xiao). I read somewhere that you need a board with a 'native' usbport.
Is that correct? How do I find out?
Are the boards recognized by jOrgan only after you created a USB MIDI interface.
And how you do that? I have tried but did not yet succeed.
Thanks in advance,
Alfons Van Daele
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From David Riggs on 2022-02-17 01:29
Hello Alfons,
I am currently working on controlling jOrgan with two organ manuals, using Arduino
boards. I read an article by Ben Carter who created a site virtualpipeorgan.worldpress.
I have been in contact with him and have followed his instructions. He uses an Arduino
Mega 2560r3 for each manual and pedal. This board DOES have a native USB port which is
actually a USB (b) port, like on a printer.
He suggests if you want to save a little money, you can purchase a Mega 2560 board made
by Inland. The Arduino is around $40, the Inland around $15 , he actually uses the
Inland boards and has not had an issue for over five years with them.
You will need a USB (a) to (b) cable for each manual and pedal board, and of course a
USB hub. Two programs that he suggests using are (loop midi) and one called( hairless
midi to USB serial port bridge). Both are free to use and easy to install.
Basically hairless midi translates incoming serial messages from the board, into midi
messages. Loop midi will create a virtual midi cable which will show up in the jOrgan
customizer. You can select in the customizer, which virtual manual, will receive a
particular virtual midi connection.
Keep in mind that a sketch ( coding),must be created to command the board as to what
you want it to do. There are some very interesting tutorials on YouTube as to what you
can do with the boards. Ben also includes links to the sketches he produced, to control
the boards the manuals, pedals and stops.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to figure how to open them on my computer as of yet.
My computer knowledge is somewhat limited. Also keep in mind that you will need to start
an instance of both programs for each manual, pedal and stops. You can opt to have these
start automatically on powering up so you don't have to do it every time.
I strongly suggest YouTube tutorials by Paul McWhorter on Arduino for beginners! He gives
great pointers on particulars that are needed in ANY sketch made for Arduino.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Alfons Van Daele on 2022-02-17 06:40
Dear David and Rick,
I have now tried with a teensy 2.0 board. And it works with jorgan.
When using the arduino ide, you have to select the MIDI type in tools>usb type
When using the platformio software, you have to add a line in the platformio.ini file:
build_flags = -DUSB_MIDI
Working with platformio is faster, I work here with the command line.
In jOrgan, the device is recognized as MIDI [hw:3.0.0] in my case.
On my computer it is recognized as /dev/hidraw4
So far, it works fine.
Thank you for your help!
Alfons
P.S. The teensy board was 17.5 Euro
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-02-17 07:39
I am pleased you have made progress.
Regards
Rick. MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Successful backend for Windows 10
From JohnR on 2022-02-16 15:29
JohnR wrote:
"I tried to use BCA's fluidsynth470-portaudio1920-x86-experimental.zip backend,
which I think was overlooked during our earlier tests. After you unzip it, and
get through the lib directory and then the fluidsynth directory, you get a folder
called "fluidsynth-portaudio-x86". This is the folder which needs to be placed in
the /jorgan/lib/fluidsynth folder within your Program Files folder. Note that it
is a 32-bits backend."
Hi all,
That is a quote from what currently is the most recent post to the long "Problems
... with Windows 10" thread. I mentioned that this particular backend from BCA
(but not the other one) seems to work very well with Windows 10, whereas there are
problems with the other backends that are available on our downloads page. If being
32-bits is not a problem, nor the fact that it does not provide for JACK or for
ASIO, then I recommend it to Windows 10 users who are not satisfied with the
latency from dsound. You do need to increase the audio buffer settings a lot,
but this does not spoil the good latency that is desired.
The behaviour of Windows 11 with our Fluidsynth backends (including this one of
BCA's) is unknown. I would love to hear reports about this from any owners of
Windows 11 computers.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Pascal Collet on 2022-02-16 19:36
Hi, i'm using BCA disposition (cavaille-coll) and expériencing latency (Windows
vista). This is not the case with other one.
May be using BCA backend could it help to reduce it (actually have ASIO).
Could it help to solve the issue ?
If so, where can i find this zip file and try it ?
Regards
Pascal
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-16 20:34
Pascal Collet wrote:
"Hi, i'm using BCA disposition (cavaille-coll) and expériencing
latency (Windows vista). This is not the case with other one.
May be using BCA backend could it help to reduce it (actually have
ASIO).
Could it help to solve the issue ?
If so, where can i find this zip file and try it ?"
Hi Pascal,
The BCA backend which I was referring to does not provide for ASIO. However, some of
Graham Goode's backends certainly do provide for it. As we found out over a year ago,
they are problematic if used with Windows 10. But there should be no problem with Vista.
I suggest you start with Graham's Tutorial, which is found here:
https://jorgan.info/base/i/Instructions_on_using_the_PortAudio_driver_in_the_Fluidsynth_Extension.html
Let us know if you run into problems.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-16 22:56
To remember concerning ASIO is the fact that only one soundfont can be used with ASIO.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-26 12:28
Hi all,
I can now report on finding satisfactory solutions for backend use with Windows 10
computers. For 32-bits operation, one of BCA's backends works well (but not provide
for jack or ASIO), as already announced above. For 64-bits, one of Graham Goode's
backends included in the jOrgan 3.21 beta 3 download allows reliable use of portaudio.
I did not test for jack or ASIO.
These details are now in one of two warnings which I have inserted into Graham's
backends tutorial, which can be accessed here:
https://jorgan.info/base/i/Instructions_on_using_the_PortAudio_driver_in_the_Fluidsynth_Extension.html
Best wishes,
John R MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Midi merger configuration
From JohnR on 2022-02-17 08:17
Hi all,
There is a page in the jOrgan InfoBase called this, but it has no content.
Midi merger is something I have never had to use. It may be that no-one these
days has to use it. But it does exist in the jOrgan Configuration, and there
should be some explanation.
Would someone please write a short piece of text which I could copy to that
page? Doing it in a post (making it clear to me by quotation marks where the
text starts and ends) would be a good way forward. It would also give others
an opportunity to correct or add to what you have written. This process could
serve as a model for future updates to the InfoBase.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-17 14:01
JohnR., The Midi-Merger, in jOrgan, can refer to, at least, two separate things.
The first which you might use, if you have ever added the Flexible Wind Input Switch
element created by Paul Stratman, to a jOrgan disposition, is a Midi-Merger Connector.
Its use is stipulated in Paul's tutorial on Soundfont Tips and Tricks.
In jOrgan Configuration, Midi-Merger is a tab which lists the various hardware inputs
and some people use the jOrgan Midi-Merger to merge those.
John Beach MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Windows 11
From Marc-Paul on 2022-02-18 15:42
JohnR…
…you mentioned:
“The behaviour of Windows 11 with our Fluidsynth backends (including this one of BCA's)
is unknown. I would love to hear reports about this from any owners of Windows 11
computers.”
I have just done a clean install of Windows 11 Pro so I can compare the performance
of a native NVME-pcie drive with a SATA6 ssd. The PC is a Ryzen5
(6 real/6 virtual =12 cores) with 16gb ram. Using and external SB0490 Creative Sound Card.
I’ve installed jOrgan 321B3 64bit and moved the jOrgan folder to the root directory.
jOrgan works perfectly with the default fluidsynth and networked midi.
Please mention to me exactly what you would like tested and how to document it so you
can use it.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-18 22:00
Marc-Paul,
Thank you for offering to test jOrgan on Windows 11. The background to all this
is found in two threads, which can be conveniently read in the Mailing List Link
web-page (https://jorgan.info/link.html ). Those threads are the long "Problems
with Fluidsynth Backends on Windows 10" and the recent "Successful backend for
Windows 10".
You will see that we were informed of the problem by a jOrgan user with Windows
10, more than 12 months ago. He wanted better latency than dsound could provide,
but our backends which are supposed to provide that better latency (along with
other important advantages), were not working properly with Windows 10. A number
of us confirmed that there was indeed a problem if Windows 10 was used.
In my recent post which began the second thread, I announced that one of BCA's
backends was behaving itself with Windows 10 and seemed to be providing all that
it claimed to provide. So it is important to see if this backend does the same
with Windows 11. Since this is a 32-bits backend only, for the test you will
need to uninstall the version of jOrgan you have, and install a 32-bits version
instead. I strongly suggest for the validity of the test that you also uninstall
the 64-bits Java and replace it with the 32-bits version. This is the only way
to avoid a separate issue from distorting the results.
It would be good also, before you change over to 32-bits for the purpose of the
test of the BCA backend, if you could test one of Graham Goode's 64-bits "ALL"
backends. Note that for all this testing you need to be following closely
Graham's Tutorial on the use of the backends. You will find the link to it,
in the recent thread, "Successful ... ".
By the way, can you please tell us what the 3.21 beta 3 is?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-02-19 15:47
JohnR
Thanks for all the helpful background!
The jOrgan 3.21 Beta 3 has some backends in it all ready to go. The jOrgan files are
in the Beta folder.
jOrgan-Installer/3.21/Beta/ which contains 6 files… 32/64 1 thru 3.
I should mention also that I have multiple versions of jOrgan existing side by side with
no difficulty. If we create a disposition folder in the same root or level as the jOrgan
folders… then jOrgan will point to it in “Recent”… no matter which version we open. At
the very worst we only have to use “Open” instead of “Recent”.
For my current testing I am using Paul Stratman’s Stiehr-Mockers / Jeux d’orgues 2.
Still working
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-19 17:18
Marc-Paul,
Thanks! It all sounds very promising.
You wrote:
"The jOrgan 3.21 Beta 3 has some backends in it all ready to go."
The things one learns ... eventually!
But bear in mind Rick's words in the thread, "Fluidsynth Failure-A tale of
Two Computers":
"The biggest cause of Fluidsynth failure is a mismatch between the bits of
jOrgan and the last installed bits of Java.
You can have both 32 bit and 64 bit Java on a computer, but the last Java
installed is set-up by the Java installer as the default Java.
There are other work-arounds but simply reinstalling the one that suits your
chosen jOrgan installation is the easiest fix."
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-20 06:53
I wrote,
"The things one learns ... eventually!"
Just after sending that post, I discovered by accident in the SourceForge jOrgan-User
Archive a post over two years old, where Graham Goode announced that he had uploaded
to the Downloads site the jOrgan version 3.21 Beta3. I obviously took note of that at
the time, but just as obviously, I soon forgot about it, being heavily involved in
creating the jOrgan InfoBase just about then.
This jOrgan version, which contains updated backends from Graham, may be the key to
solving the problems we were having with using backends with Windows 10. I shall test
this without delay, and report back.
By the way, Marc-Paul, the fact that it is 3.21 may mean that there are problems if you
are using Java version 11. It may be safer to use Java 8 if you can. (If I am wide of
the mark here, will someone please let me know.)
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-02-20 12:31
JohnR and anyone else interested:
My first goal before testing backends was to have jOrgan 32 and 64bit work
side by side. It turns out it’s not that hard.
Install both 32 & 64bit Java’s.
Install a 32bit jOrgan and create a shortcut on the desktop for the jorgan.jar.
Rename to what ever you wish.
Right click on the icon and get Properties. In Target use this command line
with your alterations:
"C:\Program Files (x86)\Java\jre1.8.0_171\bin\java.exe" -jar "c:\jOrgan321_32\jorgan.jar"
Notice the two sets of quotes.
The first set must point to the existing x86 java in Program Files (x86).
The second set must point to the location of the jorgan.jar.
As you can see my jorgan folder is in the root of C: and there is a naming
convention so I can distinguish between versions.
I can open the 32bit jOrgan on a 64bit OS and use fluidsynth without difficulty
on Paul Stratman’s Stiehr-Mockers 2.0.
I continue testing.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
recording MP3 on mac; piston release MPL
From Julie Porter on 2022-02-22 12:59
Is there a way to generate a MP3 file using jOrgan using Mac OS X?
Also is there a way to detect a piston press MIDI MPL on Piston release?
-julie
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-02-22 16:08
Hi Julie...
...the answer is a qualified yes.
The native Mac Audio support needs another application to patch the audio into
appropriate audio recording software.
I use this:
https://vb-audio.com/Cable/
...as a virtual cable into SoundForge for Mac. Then you can save as any file type
you want once it is recorded. I use SoundForge because it outputs then to the audio
system... so I can hear what I am recording. I am quite sure there are other apps.
I simply have used SoundForge for years on the PC and Mac.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-23 06:57
Julie Porter wrote:
"Is there a way to detect a piston press MIDI MPL on Piston release?"
Julie,
Could you please describe just what effect or function you are wanting to implement here?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-02-23 08:14
Are you asking about a Piston press from an external Console?
If your MIDI encoder is configured to send Program Change messages, then it might
be possible in hardware to have it trigger on Press or on Release.
It is of course possible to trigger Pistons using Note On messages, in which case
it would also be possible to trigger on Note Off messages, but in this case you
would either need to manually edit the MPL, or if you wanted to use the learn function,
you would need to press the Piston, then open the learn so the only message it saw was
the Release, Note Off.
Regards
Rick.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-02-23 08:25
jOrgan doesn't create any audio of any format (only MIDI) so has no way of creating
MP3 or any other audio file.
If we assume you are using Fluidsynth to render the audio, then you need a way to record
that, then save it as an MP3 file. If you are using some other program as a box of ranks,
then you would need to look at what recording options that software offers or can link to.
I can't speak for Mac, but on Windows, I use Audacity (from Fluidsynth).
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-02-23 09:37
Julie..
..in reference to recording the output from jOrgan... I just tested
recording into GarageBand, which of course is already bundled with OSX connecting
it with jOrgan via vb-audio cable and it works perfectly. Once the track is
recorded you can "Share" and select "Disk" and select .mp3 and the quality and save.
Seems like a good solution and "free".
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dan on 2022-02-24 00:49
I have my VPO set up to transmit a Note On/Note Off for a piston press on the console
Dan
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Julie Porter on 2022-02-25 10:38
Greetings all;
Thanks for the feedback.
I was sort of able to get the band organ disposition to work by inverting
the on and off signals.
Basically the MIDI file is played in via a virtual cable through an outside app.
The layout is in the tracker bar format.
I had been using
<switch-initiate>equal 144, equal 14, greater 0 | get velocity</switch-initiate>
Which does not seem to be a choice in the visual editor, so I was hand editing the xml.
This worked for setting up the combination memory with the set button.
Then I had to change the MPL to
<switch-activate>equal 144, equal 17, equal 0</switch-activate>
<switch-deactivate>equal 144, equal 17, greater 0 | get velocity</switch-deactivate>
which is sort of a messy solution, this also leaves the piston in the 'on' state.
I have not yet made any skins, so would have to incorporate any of this in the graphics.
-julie MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Fluidsynth Element "Interpolate" setting in jOrgan
From JohnB on 2022-02-23 04:01
I am curious to know what the meaning of the "Interpolate" settings options are
in the Fluidsynth Element in jOrgan. The four alternatives are "None" "Linear"
"Order 4th" and "Order 7th."
Is there a specific criterion for the use of each and is the default setting "None?"
I have played a disposition, using each setting in order to determine which was the
best sounding for the best articulation and reverb effect, using the SAME reverb
settings for all four of the Interpolation alternatives, .90,.60,.20, .30 (Room,
Width, Damping and Level, respectively). I have come to the conclusion that Order 7th
produces the best, sound articulation and reverb effect.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-23 23:48
I have been able to find an answer to the question that I, previously,
posed concerning interpolation in Fluidsynth. Actually, 7th Order
interpolation is the highest quality.
The Fluidsynth website has a great deal of helpful information
http://fluidsynth.sourceforge.net/api/synth_8h.html
if anyone is interested. 4th order is default.
Synthesis interpolation method.
Enumerator:
FLUID_INTERP_NONE
No interpolation: Fastest, but questionable audio quality.
FLUID_INTERP_LINEAR
Straight-line interpolation: A bit slower, reasonable audio quality.
FLUID_INTERP_4THORDER
Fourth-order interpolation, good quality, the default.
FLUID_INTERP_7THORDER
Seventh-order interpolation.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc Allen on 2022-02-24 04:43
Very interesting JohnB:
Did you just change it in Construct fludisynth or did you do some command line statement.
Excellent information!!!
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-02-24 06:55
JohnB,
Thank you for raising the question, and then ferreting out the answer.
Presumably the highest quality setting comes with a penalty, namely higher usage
demands on the CPU. But since jOrgan/Fluidsynth in normal (sensible) use makes
very low demands, perhaps we can afford to use that setting.
I note that there are other Fluidsynth settings where their optimal use has not
been explored, as far as I know. Perhaps others can take up the challenge of
researching some of them ...
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-24 14:01
Marc-Paul wrote:
"Did you just change it in Construct fludisynth or did you do some command line statement."
I changed it in Construct Mode on the instances of Fluidsynth which I use in my dispositions.
Order 7th makes a remarkable difference in terms of articulation of the sound.
John Beach MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Computers for Windows 11
From J Maher on 2022-02-28 09:40
Didn't some of the computer savvy folk recommend Ryzen processors about a year ago?
If so, is that still the recommendation? My aging laptop has been giving me "The
Blue Screen of Death" (aka stop code) on startup about every third or fourth time
it boots up. I ran SFC scannow as well as the complete diagnostic scan that Dell
builds in. Both reported that everything is fine, so I suspect my machine's life
may be on borrowed time.
Thank you in advance for any advice you care to offer.
Blessings on thee,
John M
PS. The more I use jOrgan, the more highly I think of it. It is brilliant!!
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-02-28 11:47
Hi JohnM...
I have built 3 RyzenX computers and Dozens of New Intel based computers. jOrgan
works super on all of them. When I was beta testing Windows 11 I purchased a home
laptop from Dell... upgraded it to Windows 11 Pro and started running jOrgan right
away... and it works super. It’s a i5 Intel based system with a 256gig hard drive
and 8 gig of ram. Of course the XPS Dell laptops and desktops are built more for
the long haul... so to speak... but they cost more also.
Ask any questions you want…
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-02-28 11:48
You might want to check with John Reimer concerning the Raspberry Pi setups with jOrgan.
Even the ones with 8 GB RAM are fairly reasonable. Ryzens are very good but expensive.
The Raspberry Pi would offer portability, also, if you are replacing a laptop and need
portability.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-02-28 12:07
Your description of the symptoms would suggest to me a failing boot hard drive.
If you are not ready for a completely new machine, a hard drive replacement could
give you much more reliable life. It will still require loading a new operating
system, but would cost a lot less than a new computer.
Regards
Rick.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-28 17:56
JohnM received: "The Blue Screen of Death" and Greenfox wrote: "a failing boot
hard drive."
Hi all,
In my experience a blue screen means dust in the processor, ventilation. Use a vacuum
cleaner. Can you check the temperature of your processor? Try it from bios, of the
spare time your laptop works. Of course it is possible your hard drive is ending.
To check your harddisk you can use use gsmartcontrol. This program also shows history
of failure. Download: https://gsmartcontrol.shaduri.dev/
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-02-28 18:01
Hi Jan,
I have an IT background and I provide IT support on a daily basis. Usually that blue
screen points towards drivers needing to be updated, be it audio drivers video drivers etc.
What you mention below, if a CPU is overheating it wont blue screen but it will start
to throttle performance and there is also potential for it to shut itself off to protect
it from any potential damage that over heating may cause.
Regards,
Jonathan
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-02-28 15:09
Hi John,
Ryzen's are still cheaper than intel cpu's. The reason for the high prices and short
supply of electronics is due to the pandemic. There was such a surge in demand for
electronics to be able to enable employees to work remotely. I do know some fabrication
providers are going to be building new plants but those will take around 5-6 years to build
Regards,
Jonathan
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-02-28 19:41
Jonathan wrote: “but it will start to throttle performance and there is also potential
for it to shut itself off to protect it from any potential damage that over heating may cause.”
Hi all,
I fully agree with Jonathan: This will finally be the symptoms. But it is hard to get full
information from a short e-mail. And there are other options. The build in scan reports
everything is ok. To early to declare the patient dead.
I am curious if the problem exists when booting windows in safe modus.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-03-01 01:46
JohnM...
...my perspective is a little different because I am the guy that actually
fixes the hardware if it can be fixed.
1) make a backup... depending on the what version of Windows... use the backup utility.
2) Replace the hard drive with a SSD... they are reasonable now days.
3) Reinstall the OS from a current version of Windows... even if you have to buy a new
serial #. Legitimate copys of Windows can be purchased very reasonably. Restore your files.
If you need any help, please let us know.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From J Maher on 2022-03-01 04:42
Marc-Paul,
Thank you for your advice. It's good to hear from someone who actually knows about
such things.
I did all of those things about a year ago; that is I got a SSD, a Samsung. I use
Windows 10 and have an early (3rd, I think) generation i7.
I noticed the actual stop code this morning dealt with MIDIsport. The screen didn't
last long enough for me to get more information. You may know that MIDISport Uno is
one of the USB MIDI Interfaces I use.
Cheers, sir!
John M
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-03-01 04:56
I also own a MidiSport... I've had to reinstall the driver on several occasions.
You might want to delete all the unused instances in Device Manager. Device
Manager/View/Show Hidden. Check for grayed out entries.
It could of course be that your hardware is tired.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-03-01 05:26
Good Evening John,
Are there any updated drivers for that interface?
Regards,
Jonathan
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From J Maher on 2022-03-01 09:37
Jonathan,
The newest driver I find for the interface is dated 2013, and that's from the
manufacturer's site. It is a current device, still widely available, at least
in the states. I have another device that may be a better choice. I'll try
it and see if that's a better solution.
Regards,
John M
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-03-01 16:31
Hi John,
The issue I think is not that the drivers are still there. The issue is with new
Major releases of windows. Right now the latest version of windows 10 and 11 is
21H2. The reason to keep drivers updated as things change with new releases, so
older drivers might not be compatible or cause such issues.
Regards,
Jonathan
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Flikweert on 2022-03-01 19:11
JohnM wrote: "I ran SFC scannow as well as the complete diagnostic scan that Dell builds in."
Hi all,
Without solving the problem I want to state in general that SFC, a diagnostic tool and the
Windows Virus Protection are not enough regarding security, virus protection.
Kind regards,
Jan Fl.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-03-01 19:22
Hi All,
SFC /scannow is actually built into windows nothing to do with dell. There are further
commands I can provide that can check for further OS corruption on the windows front.
Let me know if you would like me to provide them.
Also to add I have read tech articles that Windows Defender that is part of windows 10
is actually better than some paid solutions out there.
If anyone wants to discuss Information security further feel free to email me off list
as I am working on getting my own IT business (Managed Service Provider) going with a
strong focus in the MSSP (Managed Security Service Provider) space and I have a good
stack of tools if you are worried about the security of your systems and even home network.
Regards,
Jonathan
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From the Compiler: I have removed two posts at this point, as I consider them to be offensive.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
News from SynthFont: Viena and MidiSoundSynth
From JohnR on 2022-03-08 07:08
Hi all,
I wish to inform you of two recent developments from SynthFont.
1. Viena
Recent versions of this free soundfont editor have a new feature, called the "Definitions
File". It allows us to export the .sf2 file which is currently open in Viena, as a standard
spreadsheet file. We can then use the normal spreadsheet operations to edit the details
before recommitting it to Viena. This may turn out to be a very useful feature for creators
of new soundfonts.
I did try this out some time ago, and got the impression that it is a mistake to deal with
a whole soundfont in this fashion, as it can lead to a quite huge spreadsheet, which may be
very slow to navigate. It would be better, I think, to use the feature on perhaps one Preset
at a time.
2. MidiSoundSynth
This is a new addition to Kenneth Rundt's range of MIDI players. It can be used with .sf2
files (and also standard MIDI messages), but is designed to play a new compressed soundfont
file known as SoundFont format “SFKR” (“SoundFont KompRessd”). It appears to achieve
compression down to 25% without penalty. It is not free, but certainly not expensive.
The MidiSoundSynth reminds me of the Aria sound engine in its general appearance and MIDI
channel capacity.
I refer you to the website: https://synthfont.com
You may also like to consult the SynthFont Forum, where Kenneth announces the release of this
new product, and would like to hear from people willing to test it. Also accessible via the
website is > Viena > News, where if you scroll down a little you can find details of the
"syntax" to be used in the Definitions File.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Chester Berry on 2022-03-08 08:42
Thanks for posting this, John -- it looks interesting
/s/Chester H Berry
Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Sharing ranks (real pipes) across stops
From Mark In Powys on 2022-03-12 10:10
Hi,
I am using jOrgan as a midi relay for my real pipe organ. Can anyone tell me how to
configure a stop to use some pipes from one rank and some from another (e.g. for a
bass extension stolen from a different rank). I can see how to make a stop reference
more than one rank, but can't work out how to tell the stop which notes to use from each one.
Many thanks,
Mark Collins
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-03-12 13:51
You might need to create a "hidden" stop with the particular compass of pipes you
specifically require. By "hidden" I envisage a stop that doesn't display, but is
somehow activated by the main stop. Does it really need to be "limited" given the
limited compass of the pedalboard itself?
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-03-13 06:17
Hi,
yes, you can use a Coupler referencing two stops - each of the stops has a different
from-key range.
Hope this helps
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-03-13 07:03
Hi Mark,
As you can see, there is more than one way to solve this. If you follow Rick's idea,
all you need is to add a Synchronizer to activate that hidden stop - which you hide
by not referencing it from the console. The information you need is on this page in
the jOrgan InfoBase:
https://jorgan.info/base/s/Synchronizer.html
Carefully follow Sven's instructions there on the order in which the Synchronizer
references (TO) are added. Let us know if you need to have it spelled out. You limit
the range by using the FROM and TO in the Properties View of that hidden stop. You do
of course have to reference that stop to the rank from which you are borrowing those
extra pipes.
Best wishes,
JohnR MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
C - C# split in soundfont
From Marc-Paul on 2022-03-14 02:57
Greetings to everyone…
I have been thinking about working over a soundfont to represent the C – C# split
of many organ builders. My idea would be using a different audio channel for the
C side as opposed to the C# side. The only way I can see it working is with a
C side soundfont and a C# side soundfont.
Does anyone have any ideas or any experience with this in jOrgan?
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-03-14 06:53
Hi Marc-Paul,
There is certainly no need to use separate soundfonts to achieve true C/C# operation.
It can be achieved in just the one sounddfont. My practice of using 6 samples per octave
is tailor-made for this arrangement, but unfortunately I didn't do it in my dispositions,
as it would have been more work. I would now like to redo it, if I live long enough ...
What I need to do is to double the number of splits (aka "zones"), and use the one sample
for the consecutive left and right pairs. So I don't need any more samples. I simply would
use the soundfont panning parameter to put the C, D, E, F#, G#, A# notes to the left, and
the C#, D#, F, G, A, B notes to the right. The bottom octave would be hard left or hard
right (but distributed "in space" so that only the C and C# would be fully hard left or
right), and the top octave would be close to the middle. That is the normal configuration
of pipes, but you can have the "opposite" arrangement - which is what I have done in my
dispositions, and which I would now change, if I have the time.
This is using a different audio channel for each of those groups of notes, as you propose,
but of course that is simply what we already have, with the left and right channels of a
stereo system.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Les Knoll on 2022-03-15 00:02
How about doing a hard pan left or right at the instrument level doe each note.
Don’t know if this works at the presets level or sample level
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-03-15 06:45
Les Knoll wrote:
"How about doing a hard pan left or right at the instrument level for
each note."
Les,
I think that is done at the Instrument level, and only for stereo samples.
I think it can also be done at the Preset level, but that has never been my
practice.
In what I described in my post, and it was meant to be at the Instrument level,
only the C and C# would be completely hard panned, and only if you want the
stop to sound across the entire audio range (between the loudspeakers).
Best wishes,
JohnR MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Java 11 work-around
From JohnR on 2022-03-19 12:11
Hi Sven,
The xstream file which came with jOrgan 3.21.1 64-bit when I last downloaded it
is xstream-1.4.11.1.jar . Is this currently the preferred file for people wanting
to use jOrgan 3.21 (32-bit or 64-bit) with Java 11? If not, what should be used?
Also, is there a download site you would recommend?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-03-20 07:47
Hi John,
you can use this version:
https://github.com/svenmeier/jorgan/blob/master/jorgan-core/lib/xstream-1.4.15.jar
Have fun
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-03-20 08:53
Hi Sven,
Many thanks. That's very helpful.
I notice that this is the file used in the current jOrgan download for the Raspberry Pi version.
Best wishes,
John
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Ken Knollman on 2022-03-30 05:06
Hello, all.
I am preparing to install jOrgan 4.0 Beta 2 on a Raspberry Pi 4B running
the latest 64 bit Raspberry Pi OS.
What version of the java JRE should I install for this?
Also, does this .deb package install fluidsynth?
Thanks!
Ken Knollman
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-03-30 19:02
Hi Ken,
there's no 64bit deb package for jOrgan on Raspi currently.
I'm using 32bit here, the deb automatically installs the correct JRE and fluidsynth.
Have fun
Sven MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Enumerate page in InfoBase
From JohnR on 2022-03-29 12:19
Hi all,
Currently there is a discussion on the jOrgan User Facebook page about using
two identical MIDI keyboards which provide USB cables. I didn't notice any
explicit mention of using the Enumerate in Configuration.
I would like to add a page to the jOrgan InfoBase which gives full instructions -
not just on using Configuration, but the necessary routine of plugging in the
USB cables in a consistent way, and at what point it is done (before jOrgan is
running, but after the computer has booted, etc. ?). Would someone with experience
with this kind of setup please reply, setting this out clearly so that I can use
that in the proposed InfoBase page.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-03-29 12:31
JohnR., I have a setup which is in the process of being completed which has
a Yamaha USB-MIDI cable for the pedal board and two USB Nektar Midi Controllers
for the manuals. What happens is that when they are all connected to the USB
ports of the PC, jOrgan recognizes them, by name (MIDI OEM), and they are listed
in the Customizer and the Configuration Midi Merger. The Midi controllers have
switches which must be turned on in order for the PC to recognize them, which
it does, by name. In the case of the pedalboard, since it uses a Yamaha
USB-MIDI cable (5-pin DIN) the Yamaha USB driver is recognized by jOrgan.
They are, also, recognized in the Device Manager of Windows.
Simple as that!
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-03-30 19:37
I believe the Enumerate function should simply default ON in the jOrgan installation.
It won't worry users that don't need it, and it will help new users who have no idea
to go digging for this setting.
Regards
Rick MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Installing jOrgan on Raspberry Pi
From Ken Knollman on 2022-04-01 04:45
Hi, Sven.
Thanks for the information and all of your work.
jOrgan 4.0 Beta 2 installed easily on 32 bit Raspberry Pi OS 11 Bullseye.
I have installed nothing else on it.
I get the following Fluidsynth error in the debug window, though, when running
a disposition (I've tried 4 of them):
"
Mar 31, 2022 1:33:02 PM jorgan.fluidsynth.Fluidsynth <clinit>
INFO: native failure
java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: /usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so: libfluidsynth.so.1:
cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
at java.base/java.lang.ClassLoader$NativeLibrary.load0(Native Method)
at java.base/java.lang.ClassLoader$NativeLibrary.load(ClassLoader.java:2442)
...
"
It's a long list, but this probably tells the story.
The file /usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so does exist.
Can you provide any tips on what may be causing the problem?
Having fun.
Ken Knollman
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-04-01 22:09
Hi Ken,
could be a 32/64 bit mismatch. Please compare:
sven@orgel:~ $ ls -la /usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 18272 Feb 1 09:10 /usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so
sven@orgel:~ $ file /usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so
/usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so: ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, ARM,
EABI5 version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked,
BuildID[sha1]=5e20b4eff80159f0e9b3408ac18926912c54b0e6, not stripped
Regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Ken Knollman on 2022-04-02 07:30
Hi, Sven,
It does look like the .so file that installed from the .deb I used is different
from what you show.
My results are:
organ@pi:~ $ ls -la /usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 18440 Apr 1 2021 /usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so
organ@pi:~ $ file /usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so
/usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so: ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, ARM,
EABI5 version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked,
BuildID[sha1]=313529fb9323559a4f0c71452381971eb423c7a1, not stripped
I downloaded the .deb from sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan:
organ@pi:~ $ ls -la Downloads/jorgan_4.0.Beta2_armhf.deb
-rw-r--r-- 1 organ organ 2737108 Apr 1 15:55 Downloads/jorgan_4.0.Beta2_armhf.deb
organ@pi:~ $ file Downloads/jorgan_4.0.Beta2_armhf.deb
Downloads/jorgan_4.0.Beta2_armhf.deb: Debian binary package (format 2.0), with
control.tar.xz, data compression xz
Is there a different repository from which to down the .deb?
Thanks for your help!
Ken Knollman
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-04-02 12:50
Hi Ken,
I have jOrgan working well on an RPi 4, which I am using as a desktop.
There is only the one download file (32-bits) available for jOrgan with RPi
at the moment, so unless your .deb download was corrupted, that should not
be the problem.
If the problem is a 32/64 bits mismatch as Sven suggests, then the problem
must be in the Java bitness, as the jOrgan download includes an appropriate
fluidsynth version. (I have just opened a disposition with jOrgan, and then
had a look at Qsynth, and the soundfont was not loaded there. This means
presumably that jOrgan ignores whatever version of Fluidsynth is already
installed on the RPi 4.)
I have just used the Terminal to find the Java version, but it says nothing,
as far as I know, about bitness:
"java -version
openjdk version "11.0.12" 2021-07-20
OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 11.0.12+7-post-Raspbian-2deb10u1)
OpenJDK Server VM (build 11.0.12+7-post-Raspbian-2deb10u1, mixed mode)"
I understand that in early February an offical RPi 4 64-bit OS was released,
and from what I have read, it is Debian, whereas the previous RPi 4 32-bit OS
(which I am using) is Raspian.
It may be that you need to install 32-bit Java version suitable for the RPi,
but so far in my searching, I have not discovered where that can be downloaded from.
It may simply be that in my ignorance I am unable to identify what will be satisfactory.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-04-03 05:16
Hi,
that deb on sourceforge is the only and correct one.
I have a local build, with explains the difference in size.
What is the output of java -version?
sven@orgel:~ $ java -version
openjdk version "11.0.14" 2022-01-18
OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 11.0.14+9-post-Raspbian-1deb10u1)
OpenJDK Server VM (build 11.0.14+9-post-Raspbian-1deb10u1, mixed mode)
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Ken Knollman on 2022-04-04 03:26
Hi, Sven.
Looks like my version of java is same as yours:
organ@pi:~ $ java -version
openjdk version "11.0.14" 2022-01-18
OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 11.0.14+9-post-Raspbian-1deb11u1)
OpenJDK Server VM (build 11.0.14+9-post-Raspbian-1deb11u1, mixed mode)
For what it is worth, I have tried this using 32 bit raspian 11 bullseye with desktop
and with desktop /full.
I tried raspian 10 buster as well, but jorgan would not install on that.
Ken
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-04-04 08:19
Hi Ken,
I think I might have tinkered with fluidsynth 1 and 2, and I'm no longer sure which
one has to be present.
So to be sure we're using the identical version I've uploaded beta3:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-rpi/4.0/
Please try with that deb file. This uses fluidsynth 1 as it is present on the Raspi
distro by default.
Hope this helps
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Ken Knollman on 2022-04-04 13:03
Hi, Sven.
I created a fresh image of the OS an installed jOrgan Beta3.
On opening jOrgan I get the following debug messages:
Apr 03, 2022 9:27:01 PM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_OPEN_FILE action is not supported on the current platform!
Apr 03, 2022 9:27:01 PM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_QUIT_HANDLER action is not supported on the current platform!
Apr 03, 2022 9:27:01 PM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_PREFERENCES action is not supported on the current platform!
Apr 03, 2022 9:27:01 PM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_ABOUT action is not supported on the current platform!
On creating a Fluidsynth element, I get the same message as before:
Apr 03, 2022 9:29:05 PM jorgan.fluidsynth.Fluidsynth <clinit>
INFO: native failure
java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: /usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so:
libfluidsynth.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
at java.base/java.lang.ClassLoader$NativeLibrary.load0(Native Method)
The bash commands all return the same results as before.
BTW, I have also tried all this on an RPi 3B, and the results are the same.
Regards,
Ken
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-04-05 02:39
Hi Ken,
I'm out of ideas - did we compare the os version already?
sven@orgel:~ $ cat /etc/os-release
PRETTY_NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux 10 (buster)"
NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux"
VERSION_ID="10"
VERSION="10 (buster)"
VERSION_CODENAME=buster
ID=raspbian
ID_LIKE=debian
HOME_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/"
SUPPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianForums"
BUG_REPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianBugs"
sven@orgel:~ $ uname -r
5.10.103-v7l+
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Ken Knollman on 2022-04-06 01:39
Hi, Sven.
It looks like you are running Rasbian 10 buster. I can’t get either Beta2 or Beta3
to install at all on Rasbian 10. All attempts to install either with bash or through
the desktop results in failure, so I can’t go any further with that.
My Raspian 10 OS, as created using the Raspberry Pi Imager:
organ@pi:~ $ cat /etc/os-release
PRETTY_NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux 10 (buster)"
NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux"
VERSION_ID="10"
VERSION="10 (buster)"
VERSION_CODENAME=buster
ID=raspbian
ID_LIKE=debian
HOME_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/"
SUPPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianForums"
BUG_REPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianBugs"
organ@pi:~ $ uname -a
Linux pi 5.10.63-v7+ #1496 SMP Wed Dec 1 15:58:11 GMT 2021 armv7l GNU/Linux
However, I can get jOrgan to install using 32 bit Raspian 11 (bullseye):
organ@pi:~ $ cat /etc/os-release
PRETTY_NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux 11 (bullseye)"
NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux"
VERSION_ID="11"
VERSION="11 (bullseye)"
VERSION_CODENAME=bullseye
ID=raspbian
ID_LIKE=debian
HOME_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/"
SUPPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianForums"
BUG_REPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianBugs"
organ@pi:~ $ uname -a
Linux pi 5.10.92-v7l+ #1514 SMP Mon Jan 17 17:38:03 GMT 2022 armv7l GNU/Linux
Starting with a fresh image of the OS (created using the Raspberry Pi Imager)
I install jOrgan using:
organ@pi:~/Downloads $ sudo dpkg -i jorgan_4.0.Beta3_armhf.deb
Selecting previously unselected package jorgan.
(Reading database ... 100950 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack jorgan_4.0.Beta3_armhf.deb ...
Unpacking jorgan (4.0.Beta3) ...
Setting up jorgan (4.0.Beta3) ...
Processing triggers for gnome-menus (3.36.0-1) ...
Processing triggers for mailcap (3.69) ...
Processing triggers for desktop-file-utils (0.26-1) ...
Processing triggers for hicolor-icon-theme (0.17-2) ...
Processing triggers for shared-mime-info (2.0-1) ...
organ@pi:~/Downloads $
Opening jOrgan at this point. Creating a disposition and then creating a fluidsynth
element produces the WARNING and INFO: native failure messages in my previous post below.
Uninstalling Beta3 and now installing Beta2 and repeating those steps produces the same
INFO: native failure message below, but without the WARNING messages.
I have performed these maneuvers on both RPi 3B and RPi 4B with 4Gb memory. The results
are the same.
I have not installed anything else on the Pi, drivers, apps, etc. I have not used Qsynth
or tried to configure anything. All of my previous experience with jOrgan is on Windows,
where I have had no problems.
I have only attempted this with the two 32 bit Raspian 11 and one Raspian 10 w/ desktop
images available using the Raspberry Pi Imager, which seems to be the preferred method for
flashing the OS now promoted on the Raspberry Pi website. The Raspberry Pi downloads page
shows numerous image releases, all keyed to a date like "raspbian-2019-09-30/", but those
give no indication of the version.
I am likely missing one or more steps (or just using the wrong OS image), so if you can find
my error, that would be most appreciated..
Thanks!
Ken
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Ken Knollman on 2022-04-06 02:27
Hello, John.
What version of Raspian are you using? The terminal commands "cat /etc/os-release" and
"uname -a" might be the best way to identify it.
What version of jOrgan are you using?
Have you installed any other software - drivers or other apps prior to installing jOrgan?
I am running 32 bit Raspian 11 (bullseye) desktop version, imaged to an sd card using the
Raspberry Pi imager. Except for the version with the /full attribute, the OS image does
not contain java. jOrgan version 4.0 Beta2 and Beta3 are both 32 bit and install Java and
Fluidsynth, so I believe the dialog I have been having with Sven has addressed that the
correct version is installed.
Thanks.
Ken Knollman
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-04-06 05:49
Hi,
"all on Rasbian 10
All attempts to install either with bash or through the desktop results in failure,
so I can’t go any further with that."
what failure?
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-04-06 06:46
Ken Knollman wrote: "John, What version of Raspian are you using?"
Ken,
Here is what the Terminal returned:
"cat /etc/os-release
PRETTY_NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux 10 (buster)"
NAME="Raspbian GNU/Linux"
VERSION_ID="10"
VERSION="10 (buster)"
VERSION_CODENAME=buster
ID=raspbian
ID_LIKE=debian
HOME_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/"
SUPPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianForums"
BUG_REPORT_URL="http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianBugs" "
As I have said, I am running it on an RPi 4. I installed it using the Imager, about
two months ago. Also, I am using what at the time was jOrgan 4.0 Beta 2 (which has
Fluidsynth 1). The purpose of the exercise was to be booting the RPi 4 from a USB
stick, which is working well.
I apologize for my post, in which I mistakenly thought you were using an RPi 4.
I am surprised to see you saying that jOrgan 4.0 Betas 2 and 3 install Java. (Fluidsynth,
yes!). I had the impression that Java was already there, and that it is Version 11. At 83,
my memory may not be fully reliable.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Ken Knollman on 2022-04-07 02:05
Hi, Sven.
I think I have found the problem.
The Raspberry Pi OS 10 buster I have been using (Produced with the Raspberry Pi Imaging Tool)
shows this version, not the same as yours.:
organ@pi:~ $ uname -a
Linux pi 5.10.63-v7l+ #1496 SMP Wed Dec 1 15:58:56 GMT 2021 armv7l GNU/Linux
I re-flashed the SD again and running through the initial setup, realized I had not selected
to update the OS before proceeding. This time I did, and now have the same version as yours:
organ@pi:~ $ uname -a
Linux pi 5.10.103-v7l+ #1529 SMP Tue Mar 8 12:24:00 GMT 2022 armv7l GNU/Linux
I then tried installing jOrgan 4.0 Beta2 but still had a failure:
organ@pi:~/Downloads $ sudo dpkg -i jorgan_4.0.Beta2_armhf.deb
Selecting previously unselected package jorgan.
(Reading database ... 98954 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack jorgan_4.0.Beta2_armhf.deb ...
Unpacking jorgan (4.0.Beta2) ...
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of jorgan:
jorgan depends on default-jre; however:
Package default-jre is not installed.
jorgan depends on fluidsynth; however:
Package fluidsynth is not installed.
dpkg: error processing package jorgan (--install):
dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
Processing triggers for gnome-menus (3.31.4-3) ...
Processing triggers for desktop-file-utils (0.23-4) ...
Processing triggers for mime-support (3.62) ...
Processing triggers for hicolor-icon-theme (0.17-2) ...
Processing triggers for shared-mime-info (1.10-1) ...
Errors were encountered while processing:
Jorgan
I then tried to install the Beta2 deb package through the desktop. Now it succeeded!
So in summary, it appears that Raspberry Pi OS 10 buster, updated upon initial startup
is required for jOrgan Beta2, and that must be installed from the desktop (double click
the .deb in File Manager).
Regards,
Ken Knollman
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-04-07 02:58
Hi Ken,
very strange indeed.
Glad you've sorted out the problems now, we'll see how the installation goes for other people.
Best regards
Sven MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
404 NOT FOUND "https://jorgan.info/base/m/MemoryV" : how to store fluidsynth
reverb parameters, depending on chosen environment
From Pascal Collet on 2022-04-01 07:05
Hello,
Couldn't find back this information on the info base of jOrgan.
In fact, I'm searching the way to store or parameter for the different generic reverb
environments (R0 zero reverb, R1 minimum acoustic,.., R4 cathedral, ...). There is no
problem to have the 4 parameters (level, room, damping, width) but didn't find the way
to store the different value when using incrementer and combination (see for example
j3.20_English_Cathedral disposition).
Thanks for the help and care.
Pascal
PS : there was also a feature to use integrated metronom...any documentation on this ?
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-04-01 08:08
Pascal Collet wrote:
"Couldn't find back this information on the info base of jOrgan .... "
Hi Pascal,
There is no such page on the InfoBase. The closest would be Memory.html and Memory_view.html.
They are in the /m/ directory of the InfoBase.
I am not familiar with how the Reverb parameters are controlled by the Combination pistons,
apart from observing that they are. I suggest you examine one of the (smaller) dispositions
by Paul Stratman to see what is involved, if indeed that will disclose the "secret".
As to the metronome, I think that may be merely a feature which someone would like to see added -
but I am only guessing.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
ANN: Updates to jOrgan InfoBase
From JohnR on 2022-05-12 15:10
Hi all,
I have made a number of updates to the InfoBase:
1. Added the recent excellent DixonInspired Disposition (for a number of separate small
English organs) to John Dubery's Shared Dispositions page. Also added is a link to the
folder of jOrgan MIDI files meant for the DixonInspired.
2. Added an Enumerate page to the InfoBase. This includes a link to Rick Whatson's pdf
document on this subject.
( https://jorgan.info/base/e/Enumerate.html )
3. Made some minor changes to the Connector and Midi Merge Extension pages.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Dubery on 2022-05-18 06:53
John,
Thank you for the excellent job you do of managing this website.
John MOST RECENT POST IN THIS THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Issue with java
From Pascal Collet on 2022-05-30 19:17
Dears,
I was running jOrgan 3.21 (32 bits) on a portable PC running Windows 10 Pro
with JRE 1.8. Since a few weeks, jOrgan and organ dispositions (no log) doesn't
work anymore. It seems that SSD is accessed a few time and after this nothing happens.
So, I have try a few times to uninstall jOrgan and JAVA and reinstall JAVA and
then jOrgan without success. Having a look at the task manager without success,
trying to look in the MMC that contains nothing (need a settings ?).
Could you give me some guidelines to fix this issue.
Pascal
BE-Rixensart
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-06-03 08:23
Pascal Collet wrote:
"I have try a few times to uninstall jOrgan and JAVA and reinstall JAVA and then
jOrgan without success."
Hi Pascal,
Your problem may be a 32/64 bits mismatch, or or some reason the Java has become
version 11. jOrgan 3.21 will not work with Java 11, but 3.21.1 will.
I suggest you look at Apps & Features and see if there is a version of Java still
installed. If there is, all you should need to do is install a matching version of jOrgan.
I also suggest that you follow the instructions on installing Java and jOrgan which
are found on the STARTING page of the jORGAN DISCOVERY website ( https://jorgan.info ).
Make sure that Java is installed before you install jOrgan.
Please report on your progress.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Pascal Collet on 2022-06-15 17:20
Hi,
Thanks to recent messages, I could find the error log and extract that information.
Could you go ahead with this ?
Regards
Pascal
'---------
juin 11, 2022 8:50:33 AM jorgan.bootstrap.Bootstrap start
SEVERE: bootstrapping failed
java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException
at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke0(Native Method)
at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(Unknown Source)
at sun.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Unknown Source)
at jorgan.bootstrap.Main.<init>(Main.java:31)
at jorgan.bootstrap.Bootstrap.start(Bootstrap.java:39)
at jorgan.bootstrap.Bootstrap.main(Bootstrap.java:48)
Caused by: java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
at jorgan.App.main(App.java:76)
... 7 more
Caused by: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Malformed \uxxxx encoding.
at java.util.Properties.loadConvert(Unknown Source)
at java.util.Properties.load0(Unknown Source)
at java.util.Properties.load(Unknown Source)
at bias.store.PropertiesStore.<init>(PropertiesStore.java:61)
at jorgan.spi.ConfigurationRegistry.<clinit>(ConfigurationRegistry.java:44)
... 8 more
-----------------------------------------------
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-06-15 18:41
Pascal Collet wrote:
"Hi,
Thanks to recent messages, I could find the error log and extract that information.
Could you go ahead with this ?"
Hi,
could you send me the file .jorgan/jorgan-XX-XXX.properties please?
It seems to have an illegal character contained in it ... I wonder how that happened.
Then you can try deleting that file and restart the application.
Best regards
Sven THIS THREAD IS CONTINUED IN JULY
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
jOrgan for Mac
From lemontquidomine--- on 2022-06-18 00:00
Hi there
User of jOrgan since February 2017 on Mac, I really like this software which I use
every day for myself and to accompany my small musical ensemble.
I am very embarrassed today. jOrgan can't work anymore because I just changed my
system from OS 10.14.6 to OS 10.15.7.
jOrgan 3.21.1 can no longer work due to two errors:
- "Could not open 'libfluidsynth.dylib’" because the developer cannot be verified.
macOS cannot verify that this app is free of malware. »
- the version of Java (6) requested cannot be installed because the current version
of the system is newer..
Fortunately, I still have an old MacBook (2008 OS 10.7 Lion) which still accepts
to work but its screen has major signs of weakness…
I'm not fluent enough in English to understand all the comments on this thread.
I always dream of having contact with a French-speaking user…
It's really not easy to get jOrgan to work on Mac but I was able to do it so far.
Today, I no longer know what to do and there is no question of equipping myself
with a Windows computer…
Among the members of this group, won't you find anyone who can properly adapt this
wonderful software on Mac!
Can anyone help me?
Thanks in advance
Dominique
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-06-18 01:12
Hi Dominique...
...rest assured that jOrgan works on every version of the
Mac OS X, 11 & 12.
Mac OS Catalina is a challenge... but it will work.
It is possible that jOrgan needs to be in a different location on the computer.
(There were major changes to the Mac OS in Catalina.)
I suggest that you copy your jOrgan directory and paste it into "Public". Then try to
activate jOrgan from there.
You may have to find fluidsynth.jar in "lib" folder and "right click" or "two finger"
click and select "Open". You will get an error box that says: "fluidsynth.jar" is from
an unidentified developer etc. Click Open. Now try to start jOrgan again.
Let us know what happens.
If I need to I will do a new install of Catalina on a Mac Mini and get you
an exact procedure.
I wish that I could speak French as I visited for two weeks some years ago
and fell in love with your country.
Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From lemontquidomine--- on 2022-06-18 02:33
Hello Mark Paul
Thank you for this quick response.
Good news: jOrgan works with "Catilina ».
I dropped the jOrgan folder into "Public" and got no more requests for Java.
I forced open fluidsynth.jar then got a warning for each of the 'lib' files
in the folder. I forced open each time (6 times).
And finally jOrgan produced sounds.
Admittedly, it's not very simple... but you have the solution.
Well done!
A big hello from France where it is very very warm…
Cordially,
Dominique
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc Allen on 2022-06-18 03:46
Great work.
jOrgan should work normally for you from now on.
Best Regards
Marc-Paul MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Issues
From David Riggs on 2022-06-30 12:32
Hello,
I've been a member a few years now and, have had issues resolved by our kind and helpful
members so, here is new one I hope for suggestions with.
I have to organ manuals that I am in the process of converting to midi. Being on a tight
budget, I opted for to encoder bundles from midi boutiques. After wiring one manual and
plugging in everything, it works as should except, if I press more than one key at a time.
At that point, both notes continuously cut in and out very quickly, almost giving a vibrato
effect.
If I play a five note cord, the notes stop playing altogether. This all is being displayed
on the virtual keyboard as well, the notes cutting in and out and notes playing with a
large chord.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-06-30 14:11
Hi David...
...I have a Rodgers 605 that I gutted and am in the process of using
Midi Boutique's hardware as well.
It matters what kind of wiring system you are using. (Buss keying etc.) In general
it sounds to me as if a scan line is not getting a clear signal... be it from a diode
bad or loose or shorted solder joint on a scan line.
Do you understand how multiplexing works?
What I would do is peg down a couple keys with something and very carefully flex the
wiring harness to see if the problem moves or goes away.
Short of that... checking the power supply to make sure it is between the voltages
suggested... 5v and 8v I think. That's a place to start.
Let us know what happens.
Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2022-07-01 01:41
I agree with Marc-Paul...It seems like a diode matrix problem. What MODEL of MIDI encoder
did you buy? And what is the manufacturer/brand name and model of your keyboards? Do the
keyboards output one-for-one contact points? or are all key contacts wired internally to a
8X8 diode matrix (scanmatrix)?
If the MIDI encoder expects scanmatrix input pins, then the keyboards must have scanmatrix
output lines.
If the MID encoder expects one-for-one (one pin per keyboard key), then the keyboards must
NOT have scanmatrix output: rather, they must have one output contact line/pin per keyboard
key (plus one common, of course).
CLW
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From David Riggs on 2022-07-01 02:33
It seems like it was a voltage issue. I have two power supplies that I thought would work,
I didn't buy new because of that.
I DID order one from midi boutiques when I ordered the stop encoder. I tried it and, works
flawlessly!
I am no electrician but, the only difference from to the other on the label is, my old ones
out out 1.0A. The new one puts out 0.5 A. Apparently that's difference.
Thank you for the help!
Guess I'll be ordering two of those now.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-01 06:54
David Riggs wrote: "It seems like it was a voltage issue."
Hi David,
Your photos sent as attachments made your post too big to get through. However, I have been
able to see them, as well as the actual text of your post. I have reproduced your post (above),
without the photos.
The two power supplies you are holding are both 12V. output. The difference in power capacity
should make no difference in this application.
We need more clarification. What voltage does the encoder need? And you really should explore
what Marc-Paul and Lynn have indicated.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-01 09:28
The power supply on the Midi Boutique site is this:
output:12V, 1000mA DC, 12W max.
The HWCE2 midi encoder specs say:
...on-board diode bridge and voltage regulator - just apply 9-12V AC/DC from
adaptor or battery
This board can use an external diode matrix or an external single contact
hookup board... depends on the keyboards you are using.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From David Riggs on 2022-07-01 11:21
The adapter I bought from them to power the stop encoder, says the following
Input 100-240 volts-0.5A max 50-60 hz
Output +12 volts-0.5 A
Output power 6w max
I have switched back and forth three times between this and the old adapter.
The above gives me no issues and the old one, every time.
I am using manuals with buss bars and diode matrix.
The only difference that I read, is the output voltage. The old being 1A and the new 0.5A
The old one doesn't list the output power which, is listed at 6 watts max for the new.
Thanks for your help
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-01 12:23
David Riggs wrote:"The only difference that I read, is the output voltage. The old being
1A and the new 0.5A"
Hi David,
I assume you mean that this is what the label says in each case, and that you are not
referring to the use of a voltmeter. If all the adapters are working correctly, then they
will be supplying an output voltage of +12 volts D.C. . The "1A and 0.5A" are simply
referring to what CURRENT the adapters are capable of supplying without the 12 volts
being unduly affected - namely up to (but not exceeding) 1 amp or 0.5 amp. ("Amp" is
short for "Ampere".)
Since you are having problems with the "old" adapter and not the "new", it seems that
there may be something wrong with it. You will only know this by placing a voltmeter
across its output terminals and seeing what the reading is - preferably without the
encoder connected and then with the encoder connected. As I have already said, in this
particular application the output current RATING is not likely to be important, as the
encoder is not likely to require currents as high as both adapters are supposed to be
capable of supplying. In fact you should notice that the adapter which is not
satisfactory is rated as being able to supply 12 volts at twice as much current as the
adapter which IS working! This leads me to suspect that there is something wrong with it.
There is something else you can try, if the leads or connectors (if any) allow it. Try
using the new adapter with its output connected to the keyboard encoder AND the stop
encoder at the same time. I would anticipate that it is capable of supplying enough
current for that to be O.K. If you find you have no problems, then you have no need
to buy an additional adapter!
Please report on what result you get.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-01 14:29
If your issue is fixed... then the adapter that does not work may be failing under
load... or passing AC thru to the board. The frequency of the AC may interrupt the
scan matrix.
The 1A is 1 amp... meaning Current. 0.5 is half an amp. Generally read by an amp probe.
The 12v is volts.... Generally read by a meter.
I just hope its working for you!
Cheers
Marc-Paul MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Mac OS 12.5 on M1 processor
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-10 09:05 NEWEST POST
Greetings to all:
I have just completed an installation of jOrgan 3.21.1 (w/fluidsynth) on a Mac Mini
running the OS Monterey 12.5 with the M1 processor.
Everything works as expected.
I am testing dispositions but expect no problems.
I am looking forward to the Beta of Mac OS Ventura.
Regards
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________