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PAST ARCHIVES (Click to access)
jOrgan website for new users___Sticky Post
Fluidsynth Mapping of Ranks and Presets in Soundfonts___By Ken Knollman___Newest Post on 2023-01-27___4 replies
Midi Device Detection___By Arun herberts___Most recent post on 2023-01-25___11 replies
No midi device showing jOrgan Pup distro___By Kevin J King___Most recent post 2023-01-25___7 replies
Introduction and thanks___By Tony Gleeson__Most recent post on 2023-01-20_ ___10 replies
Happy Christmas___By John Dubery___Most recent post on 2022-12-26___7 replies
jOrgan in Debian 11?___By Marc-Paul___Most recent post on 2022-12-23___1 reply
jOrgan 4.1 for Raspi___By Sven Meier___ Most recent post on 2022-12-20___1 reply
jOrgan on RPi 3B+ 4(B) running Bullseye working with Qsynth__By Marc-Paul__Most recent post on 2022-12-12___1 reply
Bad News for Raspberry Pi users___By JohnR___Most recent post on 2022-12-10___6 replies
New jOrgan Setup Help Request__ By Andrew Wos___Most recent post on 2022-12-07___6 replies
Raspberry Pi two monitors___By Freeman Gilmore___Most recent post on 2022-12-02___5 replies
No sound___By Freeman Gilmore___Most recent post on 2022-11-04___11 replies Setting stops with MIDI___By Jan Hartmann___Most recent post on 2022-11-03___10 replies Sound modelling article___By John Beach on 20222-11-02 Stepped CC message control of Swell___By RickW___Most recent post on 2022-09-22___6 replies jOrgan info and jOrgan Wiki not working___By RickW___Most recent post on 2022-09-18___9 replies Proper reverberation defined___By John Beach_on 2022-09-02 Dr. Mark's Balzan on the RPi 3B+ (32bit)___By Marc-Paul__ Most recent post on 2022-08-28___11 reply Midi Soundbank preset-correlation and mapping___By John Beach_on 2022-08-27 Fluidsynth Version 2 and jOrgan___By Dr. Mark Bugeja MD___Most recent post on 2022-08-27___3082 replies Posts of Reply's do not get to List___By Marc-Paul__ Most recent post on 2022-08-25___2 replies Windows 11 issues___By Marc-Paul on 2022-08-25 MIDI devices and mini KeyPads vs different Organ software___By Dr. Mark Bugeja MD___Most recent post on 2022-08-23___9 replies jOrgan on Ubuntu Studio 22___By Marc-Paul___Most recent post on 2022-08-22___3 replies Linux recommended Distribution?____By Marc-Paul_on 2022-08-20 Windows vs other___By Dr. Mark Bugeja MD___Most recent post on 2022-08-20___18 replies jOrgan and FS___By Steve___Most recent post on 2022-08-14___1 reply Pipedreams on the Auditorium Organ___By Marc-Paul on 2022-08-14 Raspberry Pi Issues___By Marc-Paul_Most recent post on 2022-08-17___2 replies
Fluidsynth Reverb LEVEL___By John Beach___MoMost recent post on 2022-08-06___10 replies
Fluidsynth SoundFont Discussion___By John Beach___Most recent post on 2022-08-06___3 replies RPi "no valid disposition"___By Marc-Paul___Most recent post on 2022-08-05___10 replies Dispositions w/qsynth Raspberry, Windows, Mac___By Marc-Paul___Most recent post on 2022-08-01___13 replies Downloading to Raspberry Pi3 +____By Gavin Kieser____Most recent post on 2022-07-30____5 replies Fluidsynth Reverb Problem of Amplitude modulation (Fluidsynth 2.0 with jOrgan 4.0 Beta 1 64-bit)____By John Beach____Most recent post on 2202-07-28____11 replies Qsynth____By John Beach____Most recent post on 2022-07-26____3 replies Warning Message re Java Version____By John Beach_____Most recent post on 2202-07-13_____34 replies Mac OS 12.5 on M1 processor By Marc-Paul____Most recent post on 2022-07-12____1 reply Issue with java_____By Pascal Collet_____MMost recent post on 2022-07-11_____4 replies Warning Message from Raspberry Pi 4B_____By JohnR____ Most recent post on 2022-07-11_____2 replies Issues By David Riggs Most recent post on 2022-07-01 8 replies
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR
This website has been created to make it easier for internet users to discover jOrgan and to start using it. Its main pages are HOME, STARTING, ADDING, GALLERY, F.A.Q., THIS SITE and CONTACT.
The web address is https://jorgan.info
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Issues
From David Riggs on 2022-06-30 12:32
Hello,
I've been a member a few years now and, have had issues resolved by our kind and helpful
members so, here is new one I hope for suggestions with.
I have to organ manuals that I am in the process of converting to midi. Being on a tight
budget, I opted for to encoder bundles from midi boutiques. After wiring one manual and
plugging in everything, it works as should except, if I press more than one key at a time.
At that point, both notes continuously cut in and out very quickly, almost giving a vibrato
effect.
If I play a five note cord, the notes stop playing altogether. This all is being displayed
on the virtual keyboard as well, the notes cutting in and out and notes playing with a
large chord.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-06-30 14:11
Hi David...
...I have a Rodgers 605 that I gutted and am in the process of using
Midi Boutique's hardware as well.
It matters what kind of wiring system you are using. (Buss keying etc.) In general
it sounds to me as if a scan line is not getting a clear signal... be it from a diode
bad or loose or shorted solder joint on a scan line.
Do you understand how multiplexing works?
What I would do is peg down a couple keys with something and very carefully flex the
wiring harness to see if the problem moves or goes away.
Short of that... checking the power supply to make sure it is between the voltages
suggested... 5v and 8v I think. That's a place to start.
Let us know what happens.
Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2022-07-01 01:41
I agree with Marc-Paul...It seems like a diode matrix problem. What MODEL of MIDI encoder
did you buy? And what is the manufacturer/brand name and model of your keyboards? Do the
keyboards output one-for-one contact points? or are all key contacts wired internally to a
8X8 diode matrix (scanmatrix)?
If the MIDI encoder expects scanmatrix input pins, then the keyboards must have scanmatrix
output lines.
If the MID encoder expects one-for-one (one pin per keyboard key), then the keyboards must
NOT have scanmatrix output: rather, they must have one output contact line/pin per keyboard
key (plus one common, of course).
CLW
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From David Riggs on 2022-07-01 02:33
It seems like it was a voltage issue. I have two power supplies that I thought would work,
I didn't buy new because of that.
I DID order one from midi boutiques when I ordered the stop encoder. I tried it and, works
flawlessly!
I am no electrician but, the only difference from to the other on the label is, my old ones
out out 1.0A. The new one puts out 0.5 A. Apparently that's difference.
Thank you for the help!
Guess I'll be ordering two of those now.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-01 06:54
David Riggs wrote: "It seems like it was a voltage issue."
Hi David,
Your photos sent as attachments made your post too big to get through. However, I have been
able to see them, as well as the actual text of your post. I have reproduced your post (above),
without the photos.
The two power supplies you are holding are both 12V. output. The difference in power capacity
should make no difference in this application.
We need more clarification. What voltage does the encoder need? And you really should explore
what Marc-Paul and Lynn have indicated.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-01 09:28
The power supply on the Midi Boutique site is this:
output:12V, 1000mA DC, 12W max.
The HWCE2 midi encoder specs say:
...on-board diode bridge and voltage regulator - just apply 9-12V AC/DC from
adaptor or battery
This board can use an external diode matrix or an external single contact
hookup board... depends on the keyboards you are using.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
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From David Riggs on 2022-07-01 11:21
The adapter I bought from them to power the stop encoder, says the following
Input 100-240 volts-0.5A max 50-60 hz
Output +12 volts-0.5 A
Output power 6w max
I have switched back and forth three times between this and the old adapter.
The above gives me no issues and the old one, every time.
I am using manuals with buss bars and diode matrix.
The only difference that I read, is the output voltage. The old being 1A and the new 0.5A
The old one doesn't list the output power which, is listed at 6 watts max for the new.
Thanks for your help
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-01 12:23
David Riggs wrote:"The only difference that I read, is the output voltage. The old being
1A and the new 0.5A"
Hi David,
I assume you mean that this is what the label says in each case, and that you are not
referring to the use of a voltmeter. If all the adapters are working correctly, then they
will be supplying an output voltage of +12 volts D.C. . The "1A and 0.5A" are simply
referring to what CURRENT the adapters are capable of supplying without the 12 volts
being unduly affected - namely up to (but not exceeding) 1 amp or 0.5 amp. ("Amp" is
short for "Ampere".)
Since you are having problems with the "old" adapter and not the "new", it seems that
there may be something wrong with it. You will only know this by placing a voltmeter
across its output terminals and seeing what the reading is - preferably without the
encoder connected and then with the encoder connected. As I have already said, in this
particular application the output current RATING is not likely to be important, as the
encoder is not likely to require currents as high as both adapters are supposed to be
capable of supplying. In fact you should notice that the adapter which is not
satisfactory is rated as being able to supply 12 volts at twice as much current as the
adapter which IS working! This leads me to suspect that there is something wrong with it.
There is something else you can try, if the leads or connectors (if any) allow it. Try
using the new adapter with its output connected to the keyboard encoder AND the stop
encoder at the same time. I would anticipate that it is capable of supplying enough
current for that to be O.K. If you find you have no problems, then you have no need
to buy an additional adapter!
Please report on what result you get.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-01 14:29
If your issue is fixed... then the adapter that does not work may be failing under
load... or passing AC thru to the board. The frequency of the AC may interrupt the
scan matrix.
The 1A is 1 amp... meaning Current. 0.5 is half an amp. Generally read by an amp probe.
The 12v is volts.... Generally read by a meter.
I just hope its working for you!
Cheers
Marc-Paul MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
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Mac OS 12.5 on M1 processor
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-10 09:05
Greetings to all:
I have just completed an installation of jOrgan 3.21.1 (w/fluidsynth) on a Mac Mini
running the OS Monterey 12.5 with the M1 processor.
Everything works as expected.
I am testing dispositions but expect no problems.
I am looking forward to the Beta of Mac OS Ventura.
Regards
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-12 15:38
Marc-Paul wrote:"I am looking forward to the Beta of Mac OS Ventura."
Hi Marc-Paul,
Thank you for your ongoing support of MAC users who wish to try out jOrgan.
Best wishes,
JohnR MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
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Warning Message from Raspberry Pi 4B
From JohnR on 2022-07-11 17:26
Hi all,
If I use a command line to run jOrgan, I get the following message appearing
in the Terminal after opening a disposition:
"fluidsynth: Using PulseAudio driver
WARNING: An illegal reflective access operation has occurred
WARNING: Illegal reflective access by spin.off.AWTReflectDispatcherFactory
(file:/usr/lib/jorgan/lib/spin-1.5.jar) to method java.awt.EventDispatch
Thread.pumpEvents(java.awt.Conditional)
WARNING: Please consider reporting this to the maintainers of
spin.off.AWTReflectDispatcherFactory
WARNING: Use --illegal-access=warn to enable warnings of further illegal
reflective access operations
WARNING: All illegal access operations will be denied in a future release"
I repeated the exercise with jOrgan set up to use alsa instead of pulseaudio,
and got the same warning message but without the opening line "fluidsynth:
Using PulseAudio driver".
Does this mean that we may lose the use of Raspberry Pi for jOrgan, in a later
update of the OS?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-07-11 18:46
JohnR wrote:"Does this mean that we may lose the use of Raspberry Pi for jOrgan,
in a later update of the OS?"
Hi John,
these warnings are generated by recent Java versions:
jOrgan uses some old API calls that are no longer encouraged to be used,
for now we can just live with these warning.
We will find a solution for future Java version too.
This has nothing to do with fluidsynth's audio driver.
Regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-11 20:39
Sven Meier wrote: "these warnings are generated by recent Java versions"
Hi Sven,
Thank you very much for the explanation, and the reassurance that the matter
can be dealt with when necessary.
Best wishes,
JohnR MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
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Issue with java
From Pascal Collet on 2022-05-30 19:17
Dears,
I was running jOrgan 3.21 (32 bits) on a portable PC running Windows 10 Pro
with JRE 1.8. Since a few weeks, jOrgan and organ dispositions (no log) doesn't
work anymore. It seems that SSD is accessed a few time and after this nothing happens.
So, I have try a few times to uninstall jOrgan and JAVA and reinstall JAVA and
then jOrgan without success. Having a look at the task manager without success,
trying to look in the MMC that contains nothing (need a settings ?).
Could you give me some guidelines to fix this issue.
Pascal
BE-Rixensart
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-06-03 08:23
Pascal Collet wrote:
"I have try a few times to uninstall jOrgan and JAVA and reinstall JAVA and then
jOrgan without success."
Hi Pascal,
Your problem may be a 32/64 bits mismatch, or or some reason the Java has become
version 11. jOrgan 3.21 will not work with Java 11, but 3.21.1 will.
I suggest you look at Apps & Features and see if there is a version of Java still
installed. If there is, all you should need to do is install a matching version of jOrgan.
I also suggest that you follow the instructions on installing Java and jOrgan which
are found on the STARTING page of the jORGAN DISCOVERY website ( https://jorgan.info ).
Make sure that Java is installed before you install jOrgan.
Please report on your progress.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Pascal Collet on 2022-06-15 17:20
Hi,
Thanks to recent messages, I could find the error log and extract that information.
Could you go ahead with this ?
Regards
Pascal
'---------
juin 11, 2022 8:50:33 AM jorgan.bootstrap.Bootstrap start
SEVERE: bootstrapping failed
java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException
at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke0(Native Method)
at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(Unknown Source)
at sun.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Unknown Source)
at jorgan.bootstrap.Main.<init>(Main.java:31)
at jorgan.bootstrap.Bootstrap.start(Bootstrap.java:39)
at jorgan.bootstrap.Bootstrap.main(Bootstrap.java:48)
Caused by: java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
at jorgan.App.main(App.java:76)
... 7 more
Caused by: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Malformed \uxxxx encoding.
at java.util.Properties.loadConvert(Unknown Source)
at java.util.Properties.load0(Unknown Source)
at java.util.Properties.load(Unknown Source)
at bias.store.PropertiesStore.<init>(PropertiesStore.java:61)
at jorgan.spi.ConfigurationRegistry.<clinit>(ConfigurationRegistry.java:44)
... 8 more
-----------------------------------------------
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-06-15 18:41
Pascal Collet wrote:
"Hi,
Thanks to recent messages, I could find the error log and extract that information.
Could you go ahead with this ?"
Hi,
could you send me the file .jorgan/jorgan-XX-XXX.properties please?
It seems to have an illegal character contained in it ... I wonder how that happened.
Then you can try deleting that file and restart the application.
Best regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Pascal Collet on 2022-07-11 21:54
Hi Sven,
Sorry for the late reply (have had some holidays).
When having a look in the user folder .jorgan/jorgan-XX-XXX.properties;
i have explored other folders and in ./jorgan/ folder there was a file
"jorgan.....lck", look like locked ?
Delete the file and I could start the application again. The issue didn't
come again (making the daily tasks on this PC, only used for VPO).
Regards
Pascal MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
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Warning Message re Java Version
From JohnB on 2022-07-12 11:54
Recently, I upgraded my organ PC from an HDD to an SSD. On installing Windows 10
and migrating programs, I got a notification that there was a newer version of Java,
and I allowed the upgraded version to install. jOrgan would not run with the latest
version, and the message, "this version of jOrgan (jOrgan 4.0 Beta 1 64-bit) requires
Java 1.7.0.," and I reverted back to it. I, still, get the notification of a
newer version of Java being available, but I disregard it.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-12 14:13
JohnB wrote: "I got a notification that there was a newer version of Java"
Hi John,
To respond to your report we probably need a bit more information:
1. What version of Java was this newer one?
2. What version are you now using?
3. What is the full name of the xstream .jar file which is listed last in the
C: \Program Files\jorgan\lib\ folder?
Best wishes,
JohnR
P.S. Note that I have altered the Subject Line to correspond with the subject matter.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-07-12 17:12
JohnR., I am using Java version, jre1.8.0_331, on my work PC, and the full name of
the xstream-1.4.11.1. The latest version that is offered by automatic notification
is the version 8_333 update.
I had the problem on my organ computer and did not want to waste time. However, since
I got the message from the jOrgan program that the version (4.0 Beta 1, 64-bit) that
I have been using for several years "requires Java 1.7.0," and I had, manually,
downloaded and installed that and saved the JRE file, in case I needed to re-install it,
I reverted to it, and have no problem with jOrgan running as it should.
I don't usually have any problems with JRE updates and was surprised when I got the
"This version of jOrgan requires Java 1.7.0."
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-13 08:48
Hi John,
Thank you for that information, and also for the expanded information in the email
you sent me. I too prefer to download Java installers and do it manually, as this way
I know what I am getting, and as I leave it in my Downloads folder, it is always easy
to re-install using it, should that be necessary (as you have done). And like you,
I usually ignore Java notifications to update.
Still, it is disturbing that the Java 8_333 update is causing the jOrgan version you
are using to fail. Are you able to identify the app.log error file in your user folder,
copy it and include paste it into a reply post?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-07-13 11:26
JohnR wrote: "it is disturbing that the Java 8_333 update is causing the jOrgan version
you are using to fail."
JohnR., I believe it has something to do with the fact that Windows has not had a chance
to download all the security updates and any newer builds of the operating system since
the installation of the original 2015 Windows 10 build that I had on a CD. Since jOrgan
runs fine with the JRE 1.8_221, and the JRE 1.8_331 is the one that it would not run under,
I believe the problem is a Windows problem.
Tomorrow, I will let the organ PC update to see whether that takes care of the problem.
I will, also, try to remember to check the app.log error file in the user folder and copy
and paste it into a reply post.
Thanks.
John Beach MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
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Fluidsynth Reverb Problem of Amplitude modulation (Fluidsynth 2.0 with jOrgan 4.0 Beta 1 64-bit)
From JohnB on 2022-07-22 23:42
Previously, I observed that the problem of amplitude modulation in Fluidsynth
occurred at any LEVEL setting above 0.09, using a counter instead of a slider for
the REVERB filter. Again, as with the variable effect of the interrelationship
of tuned circuits where the value of one part affects, or is affected by, the
individual values of the other parts, the same is true for Fluidsynth Reverb.
For example, if ROOM and WIDTH are, arbitrarily, given values of 1.0, and DAMPING is,
also, set to 1.0, the problem of amplitude modulation is eliminated, if only one stop
or organ voice is engaged. As soon as more than one stop of the same footage is engaged,
the problem is apparent, at those settings. This seems to be related to the "loop cycle"
of the steady state of the wave file in the soundfont.
This problem is, also, apparent if the same settings for "synth" Reverb in Polyphone are
used, and the effect is more, annoyingly, noticeable at the higher frequencies of wave
files used in the treble octaves above midi note number 72, (a 1-foot pitch, 523Hz
frequency) and above.
I believe I have, in prior postings, expressed a wonder concerning whether the Fluidsynth
developers were aware of, or concerned about this problem of amplitude modulation and
whether anything can be done about it or if anything is, actually, being done about it.
I think it deserves, at minimum, an explanation of the technical reasons why the problem
occurs, and whether, or why, it may not be remediable.
I have wondered, also, if the wave file loop is responsible for this problem, whether
there is an optimal length (seconds) of a wave file for all frequencies from 16 Hz (32-foot
stop) to 8372 Hz, which is, approximately, the highest frequency we would, normally, be
dealing with in the soundfont specification. Klangsynth is limited to the production of
one-second wave files. Sample Set Creator allows for the specification of lengths up to
8 seconds, and, of course, wave files can be edited for length in Audacity.
For those members of jOrgan who have Creative Labs soundcards, (personally, I have an
Audigy 2 ZS on my work PC and my organ PC has an Audigy RX 5.0), the EAX Reverb in the
Audio Console App that comes with both of the above-mentioned soundcards is a solution
to the Fluidsynth Reverb problem. You don't need Fluidsynth Reverb elements in any
disposition if you have the EAX Reverb console.
The effect does not occur, and this is what convinces me that the problem is one in the
Fluidsynth software rather than that it is related to any soundfont parameters or the
length of wave files.
I would be interested to know whether others, who have Creative Labs soundcards,
have experienced the same results. If so, there must be a solution to the problem in
the software of Fluidsynth.....
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-23 01:32
Thanks John for really clear thoughts on the matter of Reverb.
I've spent more time experimenting with Reverb than I should have over the years...
simply because a little good reverb makes the practice seem more pleasurable.
My analysis is a little different... most likely because I also do chamber music
recording and produce CD masters for which I use Sony Sound Forge Pro. A tremendous
effort goes into making the "hall" sound real.
As far as the organ goes... I have always attributed the unhappy sound in fluidsynth1
to phase cancelation. That's simply what is sounds like to me.
Qsynth with fluidsynth 2.2.1 seems much better... because I can use the same procedure
that I use on EAX to achieve a good reverb. In terms of procedure, I select Principle
stops w/mix and use a short key press and listen to the reverb. In my mind I listen to
high, medium and low pitch and adjust the highs out until it sounds realistic to me.
Then I use a pedal Principal chorus to do the same thing and adjust the low frequency
reverb until the "room" carries the bass. The advanced EAX is superb.
The problems on the Mac are different because there does not seem to be a soundcard
external that does a good job of EAX. So I decided to search for plugins and after a lot
of testing... settled on ELEMENT from Kushview with the Oril River Reverb plugin.
Complicated to set up but so worth it.
The only test I can think of at this point for fludisynth... is to use two instances of
fluidsynth... one for reverb only out thru two separate speaker systems and the other
dry... to see if the problems you describe are still there.
To put is simply, Advanced EAX can make you think you are in the Hall or Theatre of your
dreams. Fluidsynth is just not there yet. But consider the price.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-23 21:19
JohnB and Marc-Paul,
I believe that Fluidsynth is now released as Version 2.2.7, and I assume that this is somewhat
later than what jOrgan 4.0 has. Indeed, I read that in FS 2.1.0 there was a new reverb engine,
and that chorus became "stereophonic". I have no idea where this relates to jOrgan 4's
Fluidsynth version.
Marc-Paul, I seem to recall that earlier this year (?) you mentioned in a post that you used
Qsynth to control Fluidsynth while using jOrgan. But I also believe that with MAC computers
(which presumably you were using), jOrgan does install Fluidsynth along with the user being
able to adjust the Fluidsynth parameters via Properties. Can you confirm this, and can you
describe just how you use Qsynth while using jOrgan? I am particularly interested in how we
can use jOrgan along with, say, the latest Fluidsynth version, just to try out whether the
reverb is at last acceptable.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-24 09:29
These downloads are available for Qsynth:
qsynth-0.9.7-51.4.x86_64.AppImage
qsynth-0.9.7-51.4.win-x64-setup.exe
qsynth-0.9.7-51.4.rncbc.suse.src.rpm
qsynth-0.9.7-51.4.rncbc.suse.x86_64.rpm
qsynth-0.9.7.tar.gz
Here is where they are:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/qsynth/files/qsynth/0.9.7/
Install and start Qsynth. The first instance starts by default "Qsynth1".
Click on "Setup". The first tab is MIDI, select your "MIDI Device" (will
change later) and Bank Select mode, etc. Click the Audio Device dropdown
and select yours. Click "Soundfonts" and navigate to its location. Click
OK to restart the engine. Add another instance by hitting the "+" and load
same/another soundfont.
Start jOrgan. Replace instances of fluidsynth with "Generic Sound". For
the output of Generic Sound... use something like loopMIDI to connect to
Qsynth. So if you want Gt, Sw, Ped, then make three instances of loopMIDI
and in Qsynth also. Reboot Qsynth and jOrgan and in construct mode... in
the Generic Sound output select the loop midi port that connects to the
soundfont in Qsynth... which is also set in Qsynth: the instance selected,
Setup, MIDI tab, Midi device.
So jOrgan outputs midi data (Generic Sound) via loopMIDI (free software) to
its soundfont in Qsynth... which gives Gain, Reverb and Chorus for each
instance of a soundfont. As a bonus click on the Channels and see the midi
data coming in to Qsynth and Stop Names for selected instance.
The last paragraph seems the most clear in terms of MIDI data path. Three
"Generic Sound" elements in jOrgan for Gt. Sw. Ped as an example. Three
loopMIDI paths to Qsynth. Three soundfonts hosted in Qsynth. That receive
MIDI data via loopMIDI from jOrgan.
Clear as mud... right?
I made a small disposition from the enhanced Jeux soundfont and it works
fine. I will clean it up a bit and make it available to experiment with.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
P.S. I was using jOrgan 3.21beta3 on PC
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-24 11:40
Marc-Paul wrote:"These downloads are available for Qsynth"
Hi Marc-Paul,
Thank you for all that detail. You may have already told us, but does installing
Qsynth automatically install the latest version of Fluidsynth with it, or do we
have to install Fluidsynth separately?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-24 12:49
I only know about Mac and PC... but yes... it's in the install.
Download and enjoy.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Graham W on 2022-07-24 14:20
I don't know if folk are aware that the reverb engine in fs was replaced in v2.1.0.
Freeverb was replaced by a Feedback Delay Network engine. I would suggest you install
the latest version of fs over the top of your install.
Regards
Graham
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-24 21:51
Qsynth currently uses: FluidSynth 2.2.6
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-07-24 23:41
Marc-Paul said:"Qsynth currently uses: FluidSynth 2.2.6"
Do we, still, have to wait for an update to the portaudio/dsound backends in order to use
new releases of fluidsynth in jOrgan? I have downloaded them from sourceforge, the link
from the jOrgan.info site, and the one I am currently using is 2.2.3 Win 10_x64, which
must be a couple of versions old and, thus, outdated. Are newer releases of Fluidsynth
usable with jOrgan portaudio/dsound ALL, without any changes to the latter?
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-07-27 11:26
I have found the optimal configuration and settings for Qsynth with jOrgan.
My initial mistake was in thinking that there had to be one instance of Qsynth
for each soundfont in the disposition. This was not necessary, and, in fact,
did not work.
So, I setup the Qsynth1, configured for Input driver, winmidi,
and output to Loopbe Midi and opened the soundfonts of the disposition on the
soundfont tab in Qsynth. In jOrgan, I deleted the four reverb elements and
Qsynth handled the reverb via the virtual midi cable. The problem of amplitude
modulation is not apparent using Qsynth. The version of Qsynth is 6.1.1. and
the version of Fluidsynth (in Qsynth) is 2.2.1 .
Perhaps, it is my own subjective hearing, but I find the sound quality to be
subdued or ever so slightly muffled using Qsynth. However, the control of
the reverb effect is much better using Qsynth than the elements in jOrgan.
Again, for those having Creative Labs soundcards and EAX, the reverb effect is the
best of all.
Thanks to Marc-Paul and JohnR. for their input on this topic.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-27 13:45
This sounds really good JohnB,
I would like to ask which audio interface you are using… as I seem to be getting
a little cleaner sound out of WASAPI than dsound.
Thanks
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-07-28 01:25
I was a bit hasty in thinking I had found optimal settings for Qsynth. I was deceived
by the fact that, in the soundfonts tab of Qsynth1, the number to the left of the
soundfont name is a MIDI CHANNEL number, NOT a RAM bank number. In jOrgan, a keyboard
is an organ division and is assigned a fixed, MIDI CHANNEL number, (regardless of the
fact that it may be "floating" in playback of a midi file due to the polyphony
considerations). The fact is that a soundfont's presets are assigned as ranks/stops to
different divisions (keyboards). Apparently, Qsynth does not handle the output from
Loopbe virtual midi cable in the same way that jOrgan does with respect to the
recognition of the numbered presets in the soundfont.
In my use of jOrgan, I output the Channel/track messages from an external midi sequencer
program, playing a .mid file, assigning the MIDI Channel numbers to the individual tracks
of the .mid file for the divisions in jOrgan (Swell=1, Great=2, Choir=3, Pedal=4, Solo=5,
Echo=6) via Loopbe, inputting to jOrgan, which, in turn, outputs the organ disposition
sounds using dsound to audio output to the soundcard speakers. Soundfont bank numbers
in jOrgan are fixed, (in my most frequently-used disposition, there are 13 soundfonts,
3 of Flutes, 2 of diapasons, 2 of Mixtures, 2 of Reeds and 2 of Strings, 1 of Percussion
and 1 of Environment sound=blower). While divisional midi channels are consistent in
jOrgan with presets assigned to a division, the concept of MIDI CHANNELS relative to
Soundfont presets is not assignable in Qsynth and, therefore, is not handled accurately.
Of the four bank types, gm, gs, mma, and xg, mma seems to be the one that would be
applicable to the non-standard bank/preset composition of user-made organ soundfonts.
How Qsynth handles this, I do not know, but I do know that the sounds that I am supposed
to get are not what Qsynth is playing.
I have gone to the following website for guidance
https://wiki.cdot.senecacollege.ca/wiki/Quick_%26_Simple_-_Setting_up_Jack_Server_and_Q-synth
but I have not been able to find any advice on configuring Qsynth to do what I need to.
As I said before, Creative EAX works beautifully for me and, unless I can manage to configure
Qsynth to work with multiple soundfonts, accurately, I will forego attempting to use its reverb
as a substitute for jOrgan's fluidsynth reverb elements.
Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
John Beach MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Fluidsynth Version 2 and jOrgan
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-27 20:32
Hi all,
Whilst trying to keep up with the posts on this forum, I have taken a back seat
position for a while. Soon retiring from my profession and I hope to participate
more, God willing.
I note that the latest FS is v 2.2.8. How does one incorporate this into jOrgan?
The file structure of the package apparently does not allow a simple "drag files
and folders into and replace" the lib folder or fluidsynth folder in jOrgan.
Has this latest FS been tested by anyone? It is several version beyond what you guys
seem to discuss. I think the latest version discussed here has been 2.2.1.
Regards,
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-28 01:18
Greetings Mark...
...the only way I have been able to use Fluidsynth 2.2.6
is as contained in Qsynth. That's what our most recent discussions have been about.
I have successfully... and JohnB has successfully used Qsynth as the soundfont host and that
also gives us access to better reverb controls.
Its not much of a job to setup Qsynth from jOrgan. Let us know if you want a procedure.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-28 01:49
Thanks for your offer to help out.
FS is the engine that has been used almost exclusively with jOrgan and done so easily,
without much fuss and without third party software as intermediary. Is this no longer
possible with the latest versions?
It would be interesting to see what has improved with version 2.2.8 compared to previous
(e.g. 2.2.6 that you mention) and whether we would need to complicate matters at all by
having to resort to using Qsynth or any other software.
Even from the sample-set creator's point of view, and I am one such person, the simpler
the task, the easier it would be to adapt my 4 main sample-sets and possible future ones
to jOrgan. Using sf2 fonts is already a headache for me and I have had to delegate the
work to others in the past, familiar with sf2 versus using wav files directly.
As a last resort, I suppose knowing how to use Qsynth would be useful. I have never
downloaded it let alone experimented so I am dealing with a piece of software that is
entirely new to me.... another little adventure into unfamiliar territory. I hope there
are no tigers hidden amongst the bushes... 😂 As I wait for that final call from the
Almighty, I am realising I tend not to be so inclined to learn new complicated things
preferring a day out in the Sun on a sandy beach instead. Keeping my lines busy will not
stop that call getting through sooner or later!
In shorter words, I hope it can be kept simple to sustain my interest.
Mark
(Maltese Historic Pipe Organs)
http://mhpo.epizy.com
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-28 05:02
PS.... I hope that my bit of humour came through from my post successfully....
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-28 05:07
Indeed... I would love to spend a day on a sandy beach in the shade sipping mint julips!
But alas... there are no beaches here and I don't drink anything but coffee and iced tea...
which makes me a different kind of two fisted drinker.
HA HA HA... my attempt at humor.
Sorry for the diversion.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-28 06:18
John Beach wrote:"Sorry for any confusion I may have caused."
Sven,
It seems to me that, with due respect and gratitude to Marc-Paul and John Beach for the time
they have spent discussing the use of Qsynth with jOrgan, the best way forward is to bring
out new versions of jOrgan which bundle the latest version of Fluidsynth with its improved
reverberation. Is this something you will be able to do for us before long?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-07-28 12:49
JohnR., if the newest version of Fluidsynth is packaged in new releases of jOrgan,
will there be a need to update the portaudio/dsound backends that have been done by
Graham Goode?
I have simply downloaded the new version of Fluidsynth and unzipped it, changed the
name of the folder to "default" and, after deleting the previous, inserted it into
the Fluidsynth folder in the "lib" folder of jOrgan.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-28 15:16
John Beach wrote: "JohnR., if the newest version of Fluidsynth is packaged in new
releases of jOrgan, will there be a need to update the portaudio/dsound backends
that have been done by Graham Goode?"
Hi John,
I have no idea, but given the disaster area the backends became with whatever changes
Microsoft made when they brought out Windows 10, I am not hopeful. All you can do is
try them as they stand. As far as I know, they have not been updated since Windows 8
was released.
Regarding the second matter, I congratulate you on your resourcefulness. The question is,
does it work, allowing you to assess the "new" reverb?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-07-28 18:47
JohnR., it was not really "resourcefulness," at all. I think you mistook the Fluidsynth
release version with the Fluidsynth portaudio backend, this latter of which is the folder
whose name is changed to "default" and inserted in the Fluidsynth folder of the jOrgan
installation. As to the individual parts of the "bin" and "lib" folders which are
original with the Fluidsynth release version and which may be included in the
Portaudio/dsound backends for jOrgan, I have no idea, or how they may be modified for
jOrgan. A comparison of the files in the different "bin" and "lib" folders does not give
a clue, so I am thinking that the backends which are created for jOrgan are not a simple
substitution of readily identifiable files that are, already, in the Fluidsynth release
version. So, you are correct that Sven will have to include the changes from Fluidsynth 2.2.8
and, my guess is that Graham will have to do the creation of the portaudio/dsound backends,
since jOrgan releases do not include those.
One thing I find a bit confusing is the fact that any installation of jOrgan, even a separate,
duplicate version, installed under a different identification number (jOrgan3211, for example,
as contrasted with jOrgan40Beta1) will look for the most recently used disposition, and when
opening that disposition, will NOT use the constituent parts of jOrgan from the version which
opened it, rather defaults to all the referenced parts that are in the disposition, per se.
That is, if you wanted to test the installed version of Fluidsynth, you can't do it because
the disposition references the parts of jOrgan from the version with which it was edited,
jOrgan 40Beta1 with Portaudio backend, as compared with a new installation of jOrgan 3211 with
the packaged Fluidsynth without the portaudio backend. You can do it if you use the packaged
example files in the disposition folder of the newer installation. That fluidsynth-example
file is the version that is packaged with the jOrgan release.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-07-28 20:58
Hi,
I don't have any Windows system running anymore.
If someone can adjust the default backend definition
https://github.com/svenmeier/jorgan/blob/master/jorgan-fluidsynth/lib/win/amd64/backend.xml
we can use it for future Windows releases for jOrgan.
There are plenty of other backends for inspiration here
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/fluidsynth/
You can download the fluidsynth release from
https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/releases/tag/v2.2.8
Best regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-07-29 00:54
backend.xml
(~1 KB)
Sven, CAVEAT LECTOR, attached is a copy of the backend xml edited to reflect
the changes in Fluidsynth 2.2.8. I assume that some changes must need to be made
to the portaudio.dll in the default folder of fluidsynth, because editing the
backend (xml) and making the latest substitutions to the versions of .dll files
in the Fluidsynth "default" folder of the lib folder of jOrgan, ( from Fluidsynth
2.1.0_PA-ALL a64) on starting jOrgan (4.0 Beta1 in Windows 10 64-bit) failed to
show the dsound or portaudio drivers or soundcard output options and, also,
failed to load any of the soundfonts of a regularly-used disposition. Or, does
this indicate the fact that Fluidsynth 2.2.8 is not installed in jOrgan?
Needless to say, I made a backup of the original portaudio default folder for
Fluidsynth and the original works as it should. I was being an amateur.......
John Beach
ATTACHMENT:
FluidSynth - PortAudio_ALL (64-bit) contents: · FluidSynth 2.2.8 release built with
DSound and PortAudio (64-bit) · PortAudio 19 built with ASIO, WASAPI, and WDM Kernel
Streaming (64-bit) · GLib 2.0 ASIO is a trademark and software of Steinberg Media
Technologies GmbH. ASIO Interface Technology by Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH.
This version of Fluidsynth is released under the GNU Lesser General Public License
version 3 2.2.8 Graham Goode (ggoode.sa@gmail.com)
libintl-8.dll
libglib-2.0-0.dll
libgthread-2.0-0.dll
portaudio_x64.dll
libfluidsynth-3.dll
Gnome library
http://developer.gnome.org/glib/ gnome_24.png Fluidsynth
http://fluidsynth.sf.net fluidsynth_24.png PortAudio
http://www.portaudio.com portaudio_logo_24.png ASIO
http://www.steinberg.net Asio_logo_24.png
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-29 06:48
Sven Meier wrote:"You can download the fluidsynth release from
https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/releases/tag/v2.2.8"
Hi Sven,
Thank you for your reply. It is the case that my post was really about releasing versions
of jOrgan which bundle the latest Fluidsynth version, rather than getting the backends to
work. I note that in your words which I have quoted above, you are addressing that matter
to some extent. My question is, What are we supposed to do with that easily-downloadable
release? Is there a simple answer to that question?
John Beach in his latest post speaks of doing what he is attempting, as an AMATEUR. This is
another way of saying that he does not really know enough to be confident of his actions,
and in this he is speaking for me and for most of us in the jOrgan community. I know of
only two members of this community who have the necessary knowledge: yourself and Graham
Goode. I imagine that there are a few others who probably have enough technical background
to master these things with very little effort, but they have not offered to help us out
with the backend problems or with new jOrgan releases.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-07-29 11:35
Hi John,
I was writing about adjusting the *default* backend, which comes bundled with jOrgan.
In you jOrgan installation there should be a folder lib/fluidsynth/default:
- delete every file inside this folder *except* backend.xml
- put the contents of the fluidsynth distribution into the folder
- list all .dll files in the backend.xml
- *make sure jOrgan works fine with the new fluidsynth version*
It seems fluidsynth is now coming with portaudio support by default, so update <name> and <description> too.
Send me the folder and I'll exchange it in our source repository github.com/svenmeier/jorgan
*Then* well have to find someone to build a new jOrgan release for Windows.
Regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-29 17:17
On 29/07/2022 09:09, Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote to Sven in an email:
"Dear Sven,
I am providing a link for the default folder with the changes you proposed,
and as I understood them.
https://mega.nz/file/C2B2DTxC#_tMHXe1bQPDB6M00xAg2HNHFdVOEAeFKkzx4VP7IYpo
As I stated, it did not work at least for me using jOrgan 4.0beta1. Maybe I'm
doing something wrong.
Regards,
Mark"
I tried again. Now it worked.... but I am not sure there is an improvement over
what it was before. Perhaps others could look into the matter and use the folder
I created.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-07-29 17:44
Thanks Mark,
that looks like a good start.
Note that we only need the files from fluidsynth inside the /bin subfolder.
It seems I was mistaken and there isn't portaudio support built-in actually :(.
I probably looked inside the wrong zip yesterday (i.e. the custom backends on
sf.net/p/jorgan) .
Could others try this out and give their feedback? Does it run for you? Is there
any noticeable improvement at all?
Best regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-07-29 18:43
Dr. Mark, I downloaded your "default" and the backend.xml looks almost exactly like
the one I sent to Sven, but I did not edit the top line which was original with the
portaudio backend that Graham Goode had written. The problem I see, in both cases,
is that there is no mention of a portaudio.dll file which, I believe, is where the
dsound/portaudio driver issue must be resolved and which must, also, address the
subject of audio output devices, unique to each user's system hardware configuration.
So, I think it is, absolutely, essential that some combination of the files from the
new version of Fluidsynth 2.2.8, and the content of the various portaudio backends
that are available for download must be made in order for the fluidsynth sound,
dsound/portaudio/waveout audio driver selection to be available in jOrgan (4.0Beta1)
and the available audio output hardware choices to be presented in the dropdown
window of jOrgan fluidsynth sound.
Either the portaudio.dll file must be updated or I have not, properly, done the
edition of the backend.xml. As I told Sven, I do not have the knowledge or
experience to open the portaudio.dll file and edit it in Notepad++. So, unless
there is someone else on the forum who can do that, I think Graham Goode will have
to make the necessary changes.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-29 18:48
Hi John B,
I too am completely clueless.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-07-29 19:25
Sven, I made a clean, new install of jOrgan 4.0 Beta1 and modified the original
backend.xml to 2.2.8, leaving the all the files in the fluidsynth>default folder,
exactly, as they were installed.
Then, I made a substitution of the installation libfluidsynth-2.dll with the new
Fluidsynth 2.2.8 libfluidsynth-3.dll, making the change in the backend.xml.
I changed nothing else in the dll files. On opening jOrgan, there was no listing
of dsound driver choices or audio output hardware choices. I substituted the other
dll files from the bin folder of the new Fluidsynth 2.2.8 and that made no difference
on opening jOrgan. I, still, did not get a driver or audio output choices.
Apparently, the problem lies in the new Fluidsynth 2.2.8 libfluidsynth-3.dll file
with respect to the dsound driver.
No soundfonts load without the driver.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-07-30 01:05
Since the issue of the audio driver in Fluidsynth sound is not resolved with the
libfluidsynth-3.dll file, I am assuming that this is an issue that must be addressed
(as per the info on the link below) that
this is an application (jOrgan) developer issue or option, not done by Fluidsynth
developers.
https://www.fluidsynth.org/api/CreatingAudioDriver.html
Perhaps, the above will be of help.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-31 21:07
Using a Windows 10 laptop (Home version, I think), I have just tried to use Mark's default folder with
jOrgan 21.1.1 (64-bit). I would have preferred to do it with jOrgan 4.0 Beta… but when I ran that,
without the "new" default folder, it presented "Fluidsynth failure". However, the same thing happened
with jOrgan 21.1.1, which played a disposition, with sound, before I substituted the new default folder.
At this point there was "Fluidsynth failure".
Here is the error log:
Jul 31, 2022 8:28:18 PM jorgan.Version log
INFO: jOrgan null
os.arch = amd64
os.name = Windows 10
os.version = 10.0
java.home = C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.8.0_321
java.version = 1.8.0_321
java.runtime.name = Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment
java.runtime.version = 1.8.0_321-b07
user.dir = C:\Program Files\jOrgan
user.home = C:\Users\r
user.country = AU
user.language = en
user.name = r
Jul 31, 2022 8:28:18 PM jorgan.gui.LAF install
INFO: setting look and feel 'com.sun.java.swing.plaf.windows.WindowsLookAndFeel'
Jul 31, 2022 8:28:28 PM jorgan.fluidsynth.Fluidsynth <clinit>
INFO: native failure
java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError:
C:\Program Files\jOrgan\lib\fluidsynth\default\bin\libfluidsynth-3.dll:
Can't find dependent libraries
at java.lang.ClassLoader$NativeLibrary.load(Native Method)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadLibrary0(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadLibrary(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Runtime.load0(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.System.load(Unknown Source)
at jorgan.util.NativeUtils.load(NativeUtils.java:54)
at jorgan.fluidsynth.windows.BackendManager.loadLibraries(BackendManager.java:99)
at jorgan.fluidsynth.Fluidsynth.<clinit>(Fluidsynth.java:208)
at jorgan.fluidsynth.play.FluidsynthSoundPlayer.createSynth(FluidsynthSoundPlayer.
java:116)
at jorgan.fluidsynth.play.FluidsynthSoundPlayer.update(FluidsynthSoundPlayer.
java:58)
at jorgan.play.OrganPlay.createPlayer(OrganPlay.java:270)
at jorgan.play.OrganPlay.<init>(OrganPlay.java:101)
at jorgan.play.OrganPlaySessionProvider$1.<init>(OrganPlaySessionProvider.java:45)
at jorgan.play.OrganPlaySessionProvider.create(OrganPlaySessionProvider.java:44)
at jorgan.session.spi.SessionRegistry.create(SessionRegistry.java:36)
at jorgan.session.OrganSession.lookup(OrganSession.java:212)
at jorgan.play.OrganPlaySessionProvider.init(OrganPlaySessionProvider.java:36)
at jorgan.session.spi.SessionRegistry.init(SessionRegistry.java:29)
at jorgan.session.OrganSession.<init>(OrganSession.java:100)
at jorgan.gui.OrganFrame.openOrgan(OrganFrame.java:350)
at jorgan.gui.OrganFrame$RecentAction.actionPerformed(OrganFrame.java:466)
at javax.swing.AbstractButton.fireActionPerformed(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.AbstractButton$Handler.actionPerformed(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.DefaultButtonModel.fireActionPerformed(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.DefaultButtonModel.setPressed(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.AbstractButton.doClick(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicMenuItemUI.doClick(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicMenuItemUI$Handler.mouseReleased(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.AWTEventMulticaster.mouseReleased(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Component.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Component.processEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Container.processEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Component.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.retargetMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Window.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventQueue.access$500(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventQueue$3.run(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventQueue$3.run(Unknown Source)
at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
at java.security.ProtectionDomain$JavaSecurityAccessImpl.doIntersectionPrivilege
(Unknown Source)
at java.security.ProtectionDomain$JavaSecurityAccessImpl.doIntersectionPrivilege
(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventQueue$4.run(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventQueue$4.run(Unknown Source)
at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
at java.security.ProtectionDomain$JavaSecurityAccessImpl.doIntersectionPrivilege
(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilters(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForFilter(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(Unknown Source)
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-07-31 23:10
This has been the debugged error that is common to ALL the attempts that have been
made to create a backend with the new libfluidsynth-3.dll. Apparently, the links or
paths to dependent libraries or the order and inclusivity of those that must be
present in the "default" folder of the Fluidsynth folder in jOrgan are not correct.
I am wondering if any of the geeks or nerds among us.....Jonathan Aquilina, perhaps,
have any input in this regard???
"INFO: native failure
java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: C:\Program
Files\jOrgan\lib\fluidsynth\default\bin\libfluidsynth-3.dll:
Can't find dependent libraries"
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-31 23:18
In my set up, my files are located here:
C:\Program Files\jOrgan 4.00b1\lib\fluidsynth\default\bin...
I don't know whether it should cause the issue you report.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-31 23:27
I too have been getting that too..... I don't know why it worked, once....
When I look into audio driver, there are no options visible so nothing selectable,
when the new default folder is selected in the configuration of fluidsynth.
Perhaps Sven / Graham can shed some light into how to resolve this.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-01 00:48
I have played around with the file structure and transferring files to mimic the older
versions that worked. Nothing I did would eliminate the fluidsynth failure. Something
must be wrong with the new FS2.2.8 that prevents it from working or something is wrong
with the retained files that may be pointing to the wrong files from the new FS folder.
I suspect the new libfluidsynth-3.dll may have something to do with it.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-01 04:56
To prevent further wasted and pointless effort with respect to the creation of a
dsound/portaudio backend for the newly released version of Fluidsynth 2.2.8, I need to
tell you that an inspection of the libfluidsynth-3.dll using Notepad++ reveals that the
entry for the latest version of fluidsynth> libfluidsynth-3.dll for the reverb function
is below:
Using the numbered reference lines on the left side of the page, scroll down to the
numbered line entries that are copied just below.
Quote
1067 rev_preset is deprecated and will be removed in a future release!
rev_preset: too few arguments
rev_preset: Failed. Parameter out of range?
1070 %s: needs 1 or 2 arguments
Unquote
I believe that, from this, we can infer that the problem with the reverb LEVEL amplitude
modulation has not been addressed and so there is probably no need to pursue the issue further.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-01 09:12
John Beach wrote:"there is probably no need to pursue the issue further."
Hi John,
I don't think that is the case just yet. We do not know precisely what those developer's
remarks are referring to, except that it is to do with the Fluidsynth reverb. In addition,
whenever some satisfactory Fluidsynth version is released, we shall have to solve the
problem of building a backend for jOrgan. If Sven has the time and desire to solve the
issue now rather than later, and seeing it is still a hot issue for some of us, I think
it is probably a good time to keep addressing it.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-01 11:39
Sven,
I notice that Mark's default folder has the /lib/ turning up twice. It is also in
the /bin/ - which is not the case in the Fluidsynth 2.2.8 download.
Perhaps this doesn't matter?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-02 01:32
The discussion at the link just below concerns the issue of the quality of the
fluidsynth 2.0 reverb being related to the sample rate used for the soundfont.
I tried different sample rate settings using the playback of Bach's organ sonata
BWV 526 which has notes that are held for long periods, sufficient to make a
good analysis of the effect. What is incomprehensible is the fact of the
difference in the reverb in Polyphone 1.9 or 2.3 (is there a difference in
Fluidsynth version from Polyphone 1.9 to 2.3??) where the exact same settings
of Room, Width, Damping and Level, as I used in a jOrgan fluidsynth disposition
have no looped warp and woof or modulation related to the LEVEL amplitude.
The tones are clear with no evidence of variation in steady-state tone. This
is, equally, true whether a single flute or a flute chorus was used in playback.
Why this is, and what it indicates with respect to the treatment by Fluidsynth
reverb elements in jOrgan is a mystery. However, it is obvious that the effect
is limited to jOrgan. It was not evident in Qsynth. So, it must have to do
with some difference that is unique to jOrgan. I have a question that seems
pertinent. In the download, zip file for Fluidsynth 2.2.8, in the bin folder,
there is a Fluidsynth.exe (application) file that is not incorporated, in any
way, into the jOrgan >Fluidsynth>default folder, nor in the Fluidsynth Executable
Jar file in the lib folder of jOrgan. Is there, in fact, any upgrade or update
in the Fluidsynth.exe that would change from version to version. I am assuming
that changes are found in the content of the libfluidsynth.dll (and version
numbers –2.0,3.0, etc.)
https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/issues/581 (I believer "derselbst" is
one of the developers of fluidsynth, so I think his comment is informed and very
relevant). Interesting that he calls the effect a "wobble." I could not help
wondering how JohnR. achieved that in his Earlwood disposition and if reverse-
engineering would correct the problem in Fluidynth reverb........
In jOrgan 4.0B1 64-bit, I believe that I detected the looped, warp and woof
(variations in amplitude modulation) in all of the sample rates at which I
listened, both 22050, 44,100 and 196,000. The latter, 196K seemed to have fairly
good sound at the upper frequencies, but I would like to know what others find
with respect to listening at different sample rates.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-02 01:51
The discussion becomes even more pertinent and to the point at the link below.
https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/pull/584
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-08-05 05:59
Hi all,
you can try out fluidsynth 2.2.8 with this backend for jOrgan:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/fluidsynth/Fluidsynth%202.2.8/
You have to unzip the file into your /lib/fluidsynth folder of your jOrgan installation,
then select the backend "fluidsynth-2.2.8" in the jOrgan settings.
Have fun
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-05 12:20
Sven, the backend works, flawlessly, with jOrgan 4.0 Beta 1 64-bit (Win10) and I will report
fluidsynth reverb settings after I have seen whether the problem of amplitude modulation
has been gotten rid of.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-05 17:03
I tried with jOrgan 3.21beta3. It did not work.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-08-05 17:55
I have tried the newest Fluidsynth backend 2.2.8. (Dr. Mark, did you change the name
of the unzipped backend to "default" and put it in the Fluidsynth folder in jOrgan?)
I found that both the dsound and wasapi drivers work well and I tried them at 44,100
and 196,000 sample rate and, though it may be purely subjective, I think that 196K
was better. The settings of Fluidsynth Reverb were the highest that Paul Stratman
had established several years ago.
My perception of the elements of reverb is that the only wave file that is a part of
the "mix," is the Impulse Response (IR.wav) that is used as the user-variable boundaries
of the environment into which a sound is released. The idea that the wave files of the
soundfont are (artificially-electronically) modulated relative to the parameters of the
impulse response (if factually correct), in order to simulate a given-sized environment,
does not seem logical. But something of this sort has to explain the difference between
Fluidsynth Reverb's amplitude modulation effect and Creative Labs EAX which does not
treat the soundfont wave files in the same manner. The EAX studio in which parameters
can be changed is a completely separate entity, apart from the wave file as the
fundamental actuator in MIDI.
Since we know that EAX studio can effectuate reverb without the problem of loop-cycling
(warp and woof) and produce an unmodulated steady-state tone, the quality of which remains
the same whether the perceptible size of the environment is a bathroom or a cathedral,
the same capability must be true for Fluidsynth Reverb. Apparently, reverb is the
electronic commixing of the wave files of the soundfont with the impulse response wave of
the reverb application. As the commixture is amplified, the effect is to emphasize the
loop of the soundfont wave files, the cycling of the steady-state and any warp and woof
that may occur during the cycling. If this is related to sample rate, compounded by
frequency/pitch, I can understand the complexity of the problem. This, however, does not
explain why EAX Studio does a great job with the reverb parameter elements and we, still,
have remnants of the problem in Fluidsynth.
The other question I have is whether the entry in the Fluidsynth 2.2.8, libfluidsynth-3.dll
which mentions the "rev preset is deprecated and will be removed in a future release,"
concerns this problem and we need to be patient?
That said, while it may not be perfect, it is usable and it can be attenuated by a lower
setting of the LEVEL. Again, the whole equals the sum of its parts, and you have to play
around with all the parts until you get an acceptable result.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-05 18:08
Hi John B
You do not need to change the name (we had done something similar with Graham's backends
Fluidsynth 1.1.11. The important thing to remember is to select the appropriate backend,
whatever you want to call it, from the menu (view > configuration > fluidsynth). I observed
that you need to apply / save and restart jOrgan too.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-05 23:58
A further analysis using a keyboard for sustaining play of single and multiple stops in
jOrgan 4.0 beta 1 64-bit, using both wasapi and dsound with Fluidsynth 2.2.8 Reverb
indicates that no change to the reverb amplitude modulation and "looped-cycling" (warp
and woof) problem of the wave files of the soundfont at LEVELs between 0.04 and 1.00 has
been addressed.
As I mentioned in previous emails, this problem does not occur in Polyphone with the exact,
same settings of the Reverb elements. The playback of the steady-state of the wave file
is a sustained, unmodulated tone that does not betray the fact of the sound being a looped
recording, wave file. In Polyphone, the production of the sound is as good as that in
Creative EAX with a "Cathedral" setting of the reverb. So, the problem is unique to jOrgan
and, specifically, to the LEVEL Parameter of the Reverb element. Is this a kind of
continuous filter element, essentially, MIDI CC #91 (RPN) with other NRPNs assigned to Depth
CC#92 having to do with tremolo, and, apparently, LEVEL, being an amplitude (volume) control,
since, in fact, it has the effect of muffling or reducing the loudness of audio output
between 0.01 and 1.0, and, also, causing a very audible amplification of the looped,
steady-state with warp and woof in audible cycles.
Personally, I don't understand what tremolo/vibrato has to do with the fixed
configuration of an environment into which a sound is emitted. It does not seem
that electronic simulation of the effect of reverb would require use of a tremolo
or vibrato setting. I perceive "volume" to be the loudness of an instrument sound,
completely unrelated to the effect of an acoustic environment which is the size of
the space into which the sound is emitted. I can't conceive of any obstacle or
baffle in such an acoustic environment that would produce a tremolo/vibrato effect,
modulating the sound such as the Fluidsynth Reverb is doing. This does not occur
with a General MIDI soundfont and the use of the CC#91 and CC#92 continuous
controllers in my MIDI sequencer program, and changes in the amount of depth of
Reverb in CC#91 in the Parameters of the instrument of the Soundfont, while
limiting the breadth of the effect of size of acoustic environment, do NOT modulate
the wave file to produce even the slightest vibrato or tremolo effect. So, it seems
that this interpolation, interpretation or definition of reverberation is overdone or
incorrect. If it does not occur, naturally, in the acoustic environment, why would it
be incorporated in the commixtures of parameters to effectuate reverb, electronically?
I assume that the analysis of the parameters of the Impulse Response wave files (one
for each size of environment, not one that is "transposed up or down" to simulate the
difference in size of a building) on which the digital processing of the audio-input
signal (summation of wave file output, from single stop to full plenum) is based, sets
the boundaries or "walls" of the environment causing the sound waves to be bounced or
reflected back, the essential definition of "re ver ber action." I don't believe
that any refraction of the sound takes place such as would cause a tremolo or vibrato
effect, such as the in-line tremolo paddle in a wind trunk, interrupting and reducing
the flow of wind to a windchest in a pipe organ causes (warp and woof). Specifically,
I believe the processing of the soundfont, wave files with respect to reverb LEVEL
parameter in jOrgan is the problem, since the effect can be regulated and eliminated
with the 0.0 setting of the LEVEL. I am wondering what other CCs or combination of
RPNs or NRPNs might be used to effectuate spatialization without modulation with respect
to LEVEL?
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-07 15:25
John Beach wrote:"I have tried the newest Fluidsynth backend 2.2.8. I found that both
the dsound and wasapi drivers work well"
I have just confirmed John Beach's test, with similar results. With the Reverb LEVEL set
at 0.03 (which actually is my choice with my console organ), the cyclic modulation is
barely discernible. It is a different matter with higher levels - e.g. 0.13, which
probably is the highest level I would normally use. So the issue has definitely not
been dealt with in Fluidsynth 2.2.8 . My limited testing with only one note at a time
suggested that the quality of the reverb has been improved.
There was one surprising detail: the effect seems to be very pitch related. Using the
Norden Schnitger HW Principal 8' stop, the G in the top octave was far more affected
by the modulation than other notes, and the G in the octave below that only slightly
affected. I'm sorry but I don't remember what the Reverb LEVEl was for that.
I was delighted to see that wasapi worked. I assume that meant excellent latency, and
that was certainly my impression.
Thank you, Sven, for getting this to work for us. The whole exercise has been very
encouraging. I plan to make another attempt to tell the Fluidsynth developers of our concern.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-07 18:07
JohnR., I agree with your assessment, except that I find that the looped-cycling,
modulation effect becomes, objectionably, perceptible at 0.09 of the LEVEL.
I have been trying to narrow down the specific continuous controller (among the CCs
from 91-95) that would be causal of the undesirable effect. Also, since onboard
audio and PCI/PCIe soundcards are hardware that are software-controlled, we know
that the effect can be corrected and that it does not exist with other software
which effectuates the reverb quality. That this has been a problem for nearly four
years seems rather exceptional, especially, since it must be obvious to other, non-
jOrgan users of the Fluidsynth soundfont application.
It is because of the audible, looped-cycling of the wave file that is effectuated by
upward adjustments of LEVEL, a phenomenon that is NOT perceptible apart from
Fluidsynth reverb, that I believe it is, specifically, attributable to CCs other
than #91, amount of reverb. I have tried resetting the MOD LFO and VIB LFO
frequencies to 0 (from my norms of MOD LFO 4.981 and VIB LFO of 14.285 for tremulant
and the recommended setting of VIB LFO for Flexible Wind), to see if that would stop
the "looped cycling." It did not. So, some controller setting, programming error
within the libfluidsynth-02 and -03.dlls is causing the problem. As much as we have
discussed this, one would think that someone of the developers would be addressing the
problem.
I have no idea who the other groups of users are that use Fluidsynth, pervasively.
I am inclined to think, perhaps, gamers, although games may use the gm.dls file.
Fluidsynth soundfont capability would allow for far more non-General Midi sounds to be
incorporated for gamers, but since audiophile-type music listening is not part of that,
it is doubtful that they would be plagued with the objectionable effect of the reverb.
I, also, believe that the reverb has been improved, and a more grandiose "cathedral"
sound can be gotten from Fluidsynth reverb than from the unedited, factory-preset
"cathedral" in EAX studio, which, while good, does not extend to the grandeur of the
effect of Room=1.0, Width=1.0, Damping=.50 and Level=.09
"There was one surprising detail: the effect seems to be very pitch related. "
I wondered whether this was caused by wave file length in seconds (is short, 2 seconds,
for example, better than 6 seconds?) or transposition with respect to cycles per second,
the very definition of frequency. If wave files were left unlooped in the soundfont,
would the effect occur? I have not tested this.
"I was delighted to see that wasapi worked." I, too, have switched to wasapi from dsound
which, despite portaudio being a listed driver, has not worked for me.
" I plan to make another attempt to tell the Fluidsynth developers of our concern."
Unless I misunderstand the meaning of line 1067 in the latest version of the Fluidsynth
2.2.8 libfluidsynth-03.dll which says "rev preset is deprecated and will be removed in a
future release," I think they are aware of some problem with it. I know nothing of
programming, but the language used in programming seems simplistic and, broadly, abstract
to the point of insufficiency to address a specific problem related to audio signal
processing with the parameters of the impulse response for reverb effect.
It won't hurt to give them some gentle persuasion...
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-07 23:35
JohnR., I just tested the fluidsynth-example.disposition with UNlooped samples,
exchanging the wave files that come with the jOrgan installation for 6 second-
length wave files of a Principal rank. The effect of warp and woof (tremolo,
apparently, though slower) is audible several times during the playback of the
entire, 6-second length (to its repeat), which proves that it is not related to
the length of the looped wave file for steady-state, sustained tone that should
be unmodulated.
My understanding is that Room and Width in the Fluidsynth Reverb elements are,
probably, controlled by CC#91, and that the effect of the signal processing of the
wave files in relation to the impulse response.wav (causing the problem) is, likely,
CC#92. The other possibility is the effect of the setting of Chorus phasing CC#95,
perhaps. I don't have any Fluidsynth Chorus elements in my dispositions since I
believe it is, artificially, extraneous to natural effect of stop combinations
and "overdoes" the natural.
It will require someone with a thorough knowledge of the specific aspects of
continuous controllers and in the development of Fluidsynth to correct the problem.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Mark Bugeja on 2022-08-08 00:14
Just out of curiosity- are the objectionable effects perceived on my sample sets?
Could someone perhaps check the original sample set of Balzan or any of the other
organs I released? I had manually looped the samples using loopauditioneer and made
sure they never extended beyond the release point let alone the length of the sample.
There was reference to the problem arising in those samples where loops went beyond
the end of the wav file.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-08 05:42
I have a feeling that the problem and solutions are a bit more complex.
I have tested different SoundFont editors and different SoundCards ($25 to
$1000) and found that the loop point length makes a difference as to the
frequency of the "tremolo" of the sound sample.
Reverb exacerbates that issue... especially in higher frequency portions of
a given rank. By that I mean that the lower end of a 2ft stop will sound
OK... the same pitch on the 8ft stop at the high end of the keyboard will
show artifacts more clearly. And of course the high end of the 2ft is rift
with artifacts.
In SoundForge Professional the Sample Points are shown. I believe at this
point that the sample frequency of the higher pitches is not high enough. I
intend to resample a few of pitches and see if there is any change. So its
MATH.
In Hauptwerk 4 with the included sample set... the problems are the same.
If I am not mistaken... which I could be... Hauptwerk 4 uses Fluidsynth.
Great work to ALL in helping understand the issues!
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-08 07:09
I registered with GitHub and managed with ease to join the Fluidsynth Discussions
(General category) sometime yesterday, and also put up a relevant post. Marc-Paul's
post in the other thread gave me the clue. Thank you, Marc-Paul, for that. There
has been a response very quickly - but not yet from one of the developers. The poster
is another user, but seems to be quite informed technically. He also does not
like it, and even thinks that the effect is intentional, and is a form of vibrato.
I doubt this, however.
However, he has given a link, which I am too busy to explore, even if I understood
it. It is:
https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/blob/e64ad841cb4b6afdc66a0231835b16638108c727/
src/rvoice/fluid_rev.c#L256-L273
By the way, I don't think that the reverb modulation problem has anything to do with
sample length, or length-of-sample beyond the loop points, or MIDI commands. Nor do
I think that the matter in the Fluidsynth discussion which Marc-Paul brought to our
attention has anything to do with reverb.
For the moment, we can explore Fluidsynth 2.2.8, if we have the time, and shall have to
wait until the Fluidsynth developers fix the offending modulation, if they are so
disposed, and are able to.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-08 12:27
I found the following messages in the jOrgan archives of 2011, so, I believe the amount
of reverb is continuous controller 91 and, most likely, the offending continuous controller
is 93, Chorus which is used for the LEVEL. "Chorus" is modulation and loudness or breadth
is amplitude which is the effect we get as the Fluidsynth LEVEL of reverb is increased.
You would think that this could be corrected by simple adjustment. However, that reduces
the breadth of the amount of reverb as much as the modulation of the wave file.
John Beach
"Re: [jOrgan-user] [Beta Testing] New Gain Values for Fluidsynth Sound elements
From: John Beach <jbeac...@fa...> - 2011-04-04 13:15:51
Sven, aren't the new Reverb and Chorus Elements in 3.13 beta 3 somewhat
redundant and unnecessary since the same effects can be achieved by a
Continuous Filter Element and the appropriate midi message
set 176, set 91 (reverb) or 93 (chorus), set value 127 | mult value ?
I did this in my disposition and find that they work just fine. Is jOrgan
fully MIDI CC (controller) RPN (registered parameter number) compliant and
compatible or are just a few of them controllable or changeable with the
jOrgan Message window?
Thanks,
John Beach
Re: [jOrgan-user] [Beta Testing] New Gain Values for Fluidsynth Soundelements
From: Sven Meier <sv...@me...> - 2011-04-04 16:52:29
Hi John,
the new elements allow you to fine tune 8 different effects parameters.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge you don't have this fine
control with pure Midi messages.
Is jOrgan fully MIDI CC (controller) RPN (registered parameter number)
compliant ...?
Sure :).
Sven "
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-08 12:31
And Lynn Walls responded to my question to Sven (in 2011):
"The question is NOT whether jOrgan is "compliant and compatibile" with ALL MIDI CC and RPN
message formats (it certainly is!), but rather whether FLUIDSYNTH is responsive to those
MIDI messages."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-08 13:59
Mark Bugeja wrote: "Just out of curiosity- are the objectionable effects perceived
on my sample sets? Could someone perhaps check the original sample set of Balzan or
any of the other
organs I released?"
Mark...
...I will be happy to take a look... just tell me which sample set you would
like for me to examine and send me a link.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-08 14:07
I have decided to build a 32bit Windows computer so I can install the
Creative SoundFont editor Vienna and add its outcomes to my examinations.
One of the reasons I am interested in this is that with a higher sample rate
the loop points on sample waveform can be set more accurately. I don't know
if that will make any difference in the smooth transition between loop and
the rest of the sample, beginning or ending, but I think it's worth a look.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-09 06:52
Hi all,
There has been no further follow-up post to mine on the Fluidsynth Discussion Forum
regarding the cyclic modulation which has us so much concerned. I have followed the
link given by Tom M in his response, and I have concluded that the modulation is an
integral part of the design, and is not going away any time soon. As Tom M has
disclosed, it is intentional, and is there to reduce "ringing". What put me off
initially was his use of the word,"vibrato". But a better term would have been
"pitch-shifting". I recall that the technique was used in the pre-digital days in
some public address systems to reduce the likelihood of ringing.
The reverberation section of Fluidsynth Version 2 is not designed by Fluidsynth
developers, any more than what is in FS 1, which is "Freeverb". FS 2 has one called
"jot FDN reverberator". I have no idea what "jot" means here. But this program is
clearly regarded as an improvement over the earlier one. The modulation is used as
a contributor to its "success".
One further thing I have learned about this newer program is that it uses mono samples
(such as jOrgan usually does) and produces a form of stereo reverberation.
If we want to use Fluidsynth 2, we shall have to learn to live with it. I believe that
is possible, and I have some hopes that the use of the soundfont protocol may furnish us,
along with other Fluidsynth users, with a means of reducing the audibility of the
annoying modulation, without, of course, affecting the role it plays in the design.
I shall explore this, and report before long, I hope.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-09 08:39
Maybe we should look laterally.... in another direction and seriously consider another
sound driver.
jOrgan is brilliant in its design and ease of creating GUIs. It is sad that we have
locked in and enslaved ourselves to using sf2. If we must, we need to pool our efforts
in finding a driver that allows the continued use of sf2.
The alternative is moving in the direction of GrandOrgue and using jOrgan as a frontend
to it but having to abandon sf2s and whatever benefits these bring with them (eg small
size of sample-sets) and using wav files directly (much easier to work with) instead.
I have often expressed that GO is fantastic for sound and jOrgan for the graphics. Both
are free. GO itself was, should I say abandoned, with no updates for a long while, until
someone picked it up again and started moving forward again perhaps in a slightly
different direction. I have largely lost touch as I am currently more focused on
important personal affairs and looking forward to retirement from my profession. So I do
not know what progress has been made lately.
Whichever way we want to go, I still firmly believe someone should amalgamate the two
into one software capturing the best of both worlds and independently of both jO and GO.
It would be effort well spent in my very humble opinion.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-10 08:34
John Beach and Mark,
Thank you for your two most recent posts which have been provoked by our Fluidsynth/reverb
discussion. Thanks too for all the posters on this topic. It shows that we care about these
things. We care about pipe organ sound, about the instruments that produce it, and about
the marvelous music that has been written for it. Most people do not care about these
things, but they do care about other things. I am making the simple point that one "size"
does not fit all; one solution does not meet all perceived needs.
One of the very many great attributes about jOrgan is that it makes these things we care
about accessible to a huge range of users (admirers), with sufficient flexibility to permit
people to find solutions to their particular preferences fairly close at hand. If the
precise details of one solution are not quite to our liking, a more acceptable one will
probably be found without too much trouble.
I have never made any secret of the fact that for me personally, jOrgan fits what I am
seeking in a way which greatly outstrips other approaches. I am naturally averse to conflict,
for reasons in my background which I understand and find fairly painful to think about. For
this reason I tend not to draw attention to what is lacking in those other approaches,
things which I consider to be serious weaknesses. There are people who prefer what those
other approaches offer, and that's just how things are.
Because of time pressure I shall not respond to these two most recent posts in any detail,
except to repeat the observation I have already made: you care enough about these things
to make the suggestions you do. I shall make one exception: John, you need to read with
much more care the second paragraph of my post where I explain the reason for this cyclic
modulation in FS2's reverb. I have explained that the FS designers did NOT design the reverb
system they have bundled with FS2, any more than they did the one that they bundled with FS1.
The actual designers of the Jot FDN reverberator have in view a much broader musical
population than pipe organ enthusiasts, and their product may suit that population and the
type of music important to them quite well ...
I want to express my personal gratitude for the way Sven has helped us with this particular
matter, and I want to caution jOrgan users from making any demands upon Sven or even
suggestions to him as to what else he might or might not do to "improve" jOrgan. He has,
over a long period of time, already done with outstanding success far more than can be
reasonably expected from any one person.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Rick W on 2022-08-14 08:55
Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote:"Maybe we should look laterally....
in another direction and seriously consider another sound driver."
Hello Mark
Last night I had success using jOrgan as a front end for Hauptwerk.
While I know it had been talked about before, any information I could find was sketchy
and unfinished. It actually worked out simpler than I expected, at least for step 1 in my testing.
I have spent the big money to go over to the dark side, but after some initial tinkering,
I still want my specific "Christie" organ.
Having a merge of the two open source virtual organ engines would be a match made in heaven.
I do believe though that the encryption protection of Hauptwerk Sample Sets, providing third-
party Sample vendors a secure market, has been the key to securing the investment in creating
so many quality Sample Sets.
I know personally, that if I were to put in the work to create a Sample Set, I would need to
ensure some financial return. If not for me personally, for the volunteer organisation who
owns the instrument I am closely involved with.
I'm not sure how an open source platform can provide that secure market to third party vendors?
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Al Schroer on 2022-08-14 09:07
May I make a simple but expensive solution? So much time and energy is so wasted on
fluidsynth.
Use MOTU AVB products for your multi channel setups. Use the on board reverb.
Al
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-14 09:23
Hi Rick,
One issue in your reply strikes me ... why do we all have to do things for money? This is
where I disagree with and almost started to hate HW.... It has become money.... more money
.... and even bigger money with the software going through some 3 upgrades in a short space
of time and sample-sets cost 4 arms, 4 legs, a heart and one's very soul - becoming bigger
and more memory hungry like never before! Soon one will need a hundred speakers around the
room to play some of the sets and God knows how many sound cards, RAM and more..... HW has
become ridiculous.
I have produced 4 sample-sets of the 3 major software (on occasions also for other eg Aria,
K5) and never asked for a dime other than "beg" for donations upon which I give another
(extended) set free! Sven worked for free and so did the authors of GrandOrgue.... and so do
many of the open source world. The inventor of the internet gave it to the world for free
and what did the world do? I spent thousands of hours and the return was meagre at best.
Hundreds continue to enjoy my work..... I guess I should be guilty too.....
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-14 09:38
A free software like jOrgan need a similarly free sound engine for its users. If it's going
to cost significant money, then HW might probably be a wiser choice leaving jOrgan for its
originally intended purpose - a relay to control such things as lighting in a home. jOrgan,
despite its name, was not originally conceived for the purpose of playing virtual instruments
if I recall correctly.
As things stand, I think GrandOrgue is the most reasonable option even from a sample-set
producer point of view. Just my opinion based on my own personal, practical experience. Do
forgive me for being honest about the whole subject. I like jOrgan's graphics handling. It is
second to none but FS has remained a stumbling block to its potentials as a software for
playing virtual instruments, saying nothing of the additional work and expertise necessary
to create sf2s.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-14 12:06
Dr. Mark said: "jOrgan is brilliant in its design and ease of creating GUIs. It is sad
that we have locked in and enslaved ourselves to using sf2. If we must, we need to pool
our efforts in finding a driver that allows the continued use of sf2."
I am a bit confused. On the one hand you seem to be disappointed about the use of
soundfont banks and, on the other, you think we should collaborate to "find a drive that
allows the continued use of sf2." What is wrong with dsound? I have said, repeatedly,
that the EAX capability of Creative Labs Sound Blaster soundcards which support sf2 is a
great alternative to using the Fluidsynth Reverb. fluidsynth does a great job,
with the sole exception of the current Reverb problem.
"The alternative is moving in the direction of GrandOrgue and using jOrgan as a frontend
to it but having to abandon sf2s and whatever benefits these bring with them (eg small size
of sample-sets) and using wav files directly (much easier to work with) instead."
I think that trying to run jOrgan with another program would be fairly CPU intensive.
I find, now, that if I use jOrgan in conjunction with a midi sequencer program to playback
a .mid file, and attempt to use a browser to find something, at the same time, on the web,
that there is unacceptable deterioration of the quality of playback. Very noticeable slow
down and halting playback.
Not good.
jOrgan should remain its own independent program, perhaps, incorporating a stand-alone
reverb capability with Fluidsynth which is, still, the best soundfont software synthesizer
engine that I have used. My experience shows that even Creative Sound (now, Generic Sound
with soundfonts loaded by Soundfont Bank Manager) is not as good as Fluidsynth in dealing
with large numbers of engaged stops.
How difficult would it be to add realtime, reverb processing to jOrgan? I did not find
that processing wave files with one of the reverb environments, available in Audacity
Effect>Reverb>, was, at all, satisfactory. The idea that real pipe sounds with environmental,
acoustic reverb are recorded and used in playback, without the addition of DSP Reverb seems
the realistic approach. This, apparently, is what the reverb effect added to wave files in
Audacity is supposed to do. I found the "cathedral" setting, when added to the octave wave
files for a soundfont, to be unsatisfactory. Actually, I believe it is our expectations
which are unrealistic. The reality is that a sound is emitted into an acoustical environment
and the sound reverberates until its decay, which is a progressive fade out, not an amplitude
modulation. The basic quality of the sound is not changed by the environment. If it is
changed, at all, it is changed by the mechanisms of the organ, such as tremulant. What is
happening with Fluidsynth Reverb LEVEL is an anomaly, an unrealistic and improper effect that
destroys the benefit of purpose. The way they have configured LEVEL in Reverb is as a switch,
triggering the looped playback of the sound, with a warp and woof that is completely unrealistic
in a proper production of steady-state sound.
Since they know what the difference in settings for LEVEL between version 1.0 and 2.2.8 are,
it should be a simple matter to replace what is currently in 2.2.8 with that which is in 1.0.
Hardware has the capability of reproducing the sound, correctly, and with the proper reverb.
It just needs the correct parameters of software to make it do so.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Rick W on 2022-08-14 12:47
There are a few different aspects opening up in this discussion.
Let me clarify one thing for now.
There is no way jOrgan can have a reverb function because jOrgan doesn't create any sound.
jOrgan is just a MIDI Relay that combines Console functions to MIDI Keyboard signals.
These signals are then fed to some sort of sound engine that can trigger and/or synthesise
sound from Samples. This is now outside of jOrgan despite Fluidsynth appearing to part of JOrgan.
Reverb can only be rendered after the sounds are created.
jOrgan (when mated with Fluidsynth) is reliant on the Fluidsynth community for how Fluidsynth
performs and the functionality it provides.
Where things seem to stand at the moment, is that "progress" in the Fluidsynth community is
detrimental rather than beneficial to jOrgans use of Fluidsynth.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-14 18:19
John Beach said: "I am a bit confused. On the one hand you seem to be disappointed about
the use of soundfont banks and, on the other, you think we should collaborate to "find a
drive that allows the continued use of sf2.""
I am only trying to explore and discuss options, looking at what is good and should be kept
whilst at the same time considering what others would like to see/ have. There should be
nothing confusing about that. If we want jOrgan to continue using sf2 as source of sound
and we don't like FS we must consider finding a suitable alternative that would be equally
easy to install and use or we've got to move away in a totally different direction.....
vertical vs lateral thinking. It has been a futile wait for FS developers to come up with
a solution for our complaint and it seems like they simply couldn't give a hoot... Let's
stop griping and whining and move forwards and find our own solution if we are to make any
progress. Some solutions found are not quite practical for the lesser mortals amongst us.
From a sample-set creator, I find sf2 rather confusing and I have had to rely on others to
convert my wav files into sf2 format. In practice why go this extra complicated step when
the wav files are playable albeit using a different software? Why create a problem
especially if we're not going to be far better, if at all, than what we are?
I must admit that jOrgan was my first love and the idea of creating sample-sets myself was
originally specifically to contribute to the jOrgan community in kind for all the
opportunities and help received in this new world I got introduced to. It was also a
collaborated exercise between me and our late friend Panos Ghekas who loved jOrgan and who
endeavoured to bring out the best in it. Since, I moved on yet there remains this nostalgic
aura hanging around jOrgan like the morning mist.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-14 18:44
Rick said: " There is no way jOrgan can have a reverb function because jOrgan doesn't
create any sound."
Fluidsynth Reverb is unique to the extent that it does NOT respond to the normal, MIDI,
Continuous Controllers (RPNs) that are used to effectuate reverb and chorus from within,
for example, a MIDI Sequencer program, having the capability of changing and specifying
assignable RPNs and NRPNs. While it does respond to Volume and Expression changes that
are received via input to jOrgan by Loopbe virtual MIDI cable, it does NOT respond to
changes in Modulation (tremolo) settings from the same MIDI sequencer program. This is
only, partially, understandable, since duplication of capability is, largely, a matter of
convenience, not absolute necessity. However, one would think that the MIDI Standard would
apply, nearly equally, to General Sound as well as General MIDI, since parameter controls
and changes are, equally, necessary with respect to Soundfonts, whose fundamental
difference is found in the specific wave file sounds which comprise the substance of the
instrument sounds that differ from those of General MIDI, by choice of the creator or user.
The fact is that a General MIDI soundfont's wave files can be substituted, but the specific
instruments of a General MIDI soundbank (gm.dls), for example, are specified for purposes of
consistency of standard playback, relative to THE Standard.
Seemingly, the recorded wave files of ranks of pipes containing the effects of the acoustic
environment in which they were recorded, will require nothing more than exact playback of
those wave files when a key is pressed and a Note-ON/Note-OFF message is sent. Other than,
perhaps, a release parameter, and a preset change message for the tremulant-version of the
same organ stop, and response to volume and expression controls, the recorded, wave files
contain the whole of the organ sounds.
With real-time, digital processing of the organ wave files relative to the parameters of
the reverb, impulse response, wave file, the concept of artificial manipulation of the
wave file becomes a consideration that, while theoretically, correct (perhaps, and "haps"
seems to be a problematic variable), practically, becomes a matter of subjective use and,
consequently, criticism.
If and since the MIDI specification sets the controllers and depth of effects such as
reverb and chorus, it was foreseen that reverb would be a controllable variable relative
to the general sound output of MIDI-capable instruments. That is, some size-quantity
of reverberation effect, natural to a given environment, delimited from 0.00 to 1.0 with
respect to the parameters of Room, Width and Damping, the individual settings of which
regulate the effect-constructs on the wave files of the instrument, it is, specifically,
LEVEL which, by "amplitude" becomes an abstract and seemingly, irrational regulation of
sound quality with a modulation which is, completely, unacceptable in terms of its realism.
The natural consequence of combining sounds of different pitches does not need an electronic
regulation, exaggerating the effect of such combination. To increase modulation, by a
control setting, is only logical if modulation, such as tremolo or vibrato is the desired
objective. That is not the objective or effect of reverberation. So, LEVEL can not,
properly, be the amplitude modulation of the looped-cycling of the instrument-sound, wave
file, any more than it could be the looped cycling of the impulse response file parameters.
"jOrgan is just a MIDI Relay that combines Console functions to MIDI Keyboard signals."
I see jOrgan as a user-definable, Graphic User Interface for MIDI instruments, purposefully,
synthesis of and for organ-sound production. It is, uniquely, that, until the substance of
sound/audio processing, input and output are incorporated. The concept of soundbanks, other
than those of soundfonts, has never been a practice or a topic of serious discussion with
respect to jOrgan and no other alternatives to Fluidsynth or Creative Sound, except Generic
Sound, have ever been pursued. Even Generic Sound is a nominal difference which is,
essentially, Creative Sound with soundfonts loaded into RAM by Soundfont Bank Manager, or
it is the use of the internal or pipe sounds of an external instrument for purposes of
control, via MIDI, by the jOrgan interface. With the exception of discussions concerning
SAMS, there has been no need to discuss sound production or the problems of simulation of
effects related to it.
"These signals are then fed to some sort of sound engine that can trigger and/or synthesise
sound from Samples. This is now outside of jOrgan despite Fluidsynth appearing to part of
jOrgan. Reverb can only be rendered after the sounds are created."
"The idea that reverb can, only, be rendered after the sounds are created" is, technically,
problematic since specific environment is a "constant" with respect to parameters, room and
width= size, and damping, which signifies, to me, an absorption of sound reducing the
duration of it. However, the processing of a sound wave by that environment should not
produce an "amplitude modulation," defined as, either, a loudness of wavering, on the one
hand, or a wavering with respect to loudness, on the other. "Level," as a "gradient"
makes sense with respect to "size." Loudness is a static property of the individual
voicing of an organ stop. If and since reality is a logical expectation, the ability of
electronics to replicate size by "impulse response" in reverberation effect, and process
and impose it on a sound wave, single or ensemble, without wavering (without controller-
caused modulating, such as warp and woof or tremulant/vibrato), and allowing the natural
fade out of the sound, should be the expectation.
"jOrgan (when mated with Fluidsynth) is reliant on the Fluidsynth community for how
Fluidsynth performs and the functionality it provides."
Very true and since they can't or won't do anything about the effect, some alternative
to Fluidsynth reverb needs to be found. Is it not possible to take an audio output
signal and process it, realtime, with extantial reverb by a stand-alone application?
I believe this is what Creative Labs EAX does since it works with both live playing or
the playback of a .mid file or the use of jOrgan proprietary .mid files. There has to
be a solution to this problem.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-14 20:54
Mark wrote:"It has been a futile wait for FS developers to come up with
a solution for our complaint and it seems like they simply couldn't give a hoot..."
Those closing words are simply not true. I believe I have given you the link to the GitHub
Discussion which I initiated. The person who replied to my post is one of the Fluidsynth
developers, and he admitted that he is not keen on the modulation. He would like to insert
a means for users to choose a variety of different reverb programs to allow them to make
their own choice, but he is unsure whether he will find the time to do this.
I believe I have given you the link to the copious data regarding the Jot FDN Reverberator
being used in FS2, where I learned that the modulation is a basic part of the design to
allow the program to provide a much better reverberation sound, with greatly reduced ringing.
Furthermore, the Jot FDN program is regarded as being on the cutting edge of reverberator
design.
As far as I am aware, there is nothing wrong with Fluidsynth itself. I have searched the
internet for complaints about Fluidsynth, and managed to find nothing. When people tell me
that one sound engine gives a better sound than another, unless they give a reason and
state in what way such and such is superior, I regard it as an unsubstantiated opinion.
When people talk about better sound, I usually expect them to be referring to "sound
quality". I once challenged a poster on our Discussion Forum when he made a remark about
the sound of another VPO program being superior to that of jOrgan, as I was genuinely
puzzled by it. I don't find anything inferior about its quality of sound. His reply, if
I remember correctly, was that his program of choice allowed (and actually required)
the use of release samples. Well, I wasn't impressed with that, for as I have stated here
more than once, I regard release samples as used by HW and GO to be a distinct liability,
on both musical and technical grounds, for reasons which I believe I have adequately stated.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Rick W on 2022-08-15 16:27
If we think about the history of MIDI for a moment, we find a digital serial communication
protocol developed for musical instruments to "talk" to each other. More specifically,
the keyboard of one instrument could trigger sounds on another instrument. Code was
developed so that different brands of products could be linked, and included codes for
telling the playing instrument or module not only what sound to play by how loud, vibrato,
sustain, reverb, tuning... As technology moved on, sound modules became popular, then also
"Sound Cards" in computers. The computer gaming industry pushed ways to have sound
accompanying games and General MIDI played a role in that.
Then there was the development of fully software based MIDI players. They are performing
the function that once was a keyboard or a sound module or even a sound card. They are
still being told what to do by the MIDI messages.
jOrgan simply collects a stream of MIDI messages from a "MIDI Console" as well as
information from the "Computer Console" and manipulates them as needed in much the same way
as an Organ Relay. It then sends MIDI Messages to some form of sound producing device.
If the jOrgan Disposition developer has chosen to use Fluidsynth then there are a lot of
specific commands and features that can be utilised in jOrgan to give the user various
aspects of control over the sound being produced. Some of these options relate to "Reverb",
but whatever any of these adjustments and parameters are, they are only ever MIDI messages
that are passed to a secondary piece of software (in this case Fluidsynth) also running in
the computer.
jOrgan never handles anything "Audio" it only ever handles MIDI messages that some other
hardware or software deciphers to create audio sound and whatever manipulations are wished
to be added to that sound.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-15 17:38
Hi John,
I'm sorry if I came across as being too blunt and perhaps unjustifiably so. I must admit in
all honesty, I am not even too sure what the problem is all about in the first place. I
joined in more in attempt to provide ideas to stimulate efforts along other lines of thought,
exploring other alternatives rather than continuing to discuss the matter and getting nowhere
.... at least that's is/was my impression. FS has been a bone of contention for quite a while.
It is sad that something is started and then almost abandoned because developers don't have
time for it (perhaps because there's no money in the equation). Perhaps I should gracefully
back down and let you guys tease it out. I'll keep myself at a safer distance and just observe. ;-)
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-08-15 23:30
The simple fact (which is attested to by long-time soundfont creators and users) is that
Fluidsynth is the very best of software synthesizers dealing with the sf2 format. We know
this, ourselves, from the many years of using it with jOrgan. As I stated in a recent post,
Fluidsynth has the ability to deal quite nicely with larger amounts of stops than even Creative
Sound.
I assumed that MIDI MPL could address any issue of controllers in jOrgan, simply, because the
MIDI standard was complied with. I, also, assumed that reverb, as a built-in effect capability
of all sound cards and onboard sound, could be controlled with midi continuous controllers and
applied to all audio output. What I discovered was that Fluidsynth Sound requires the use of
the Reverb elements of jOrgan and that continuous controller elements for CC#91 and #92, given
the proper MPL messages, will NOT work with Fluidsynth, whereas, they WILL work with Generic
Sound and Soundfonts loaded by Soundfont Bank Manager.
I think a better name for the effect we are hearing (and to which we object) would be phase-
amplitude modulation. When a sound is first emitted from a point of origin, it is its original
and perfectly-formed sound wave. As it travels and is impacted by the baffles and boundaries
of a given environment (building space), the phase (in time and length) of the wave becomes
amplified (not in the sense of louder) while, at the same time, beginning its decay or fade out.
If this interpolation causes a modulation (warp and woof) ( or can, accurately, be described as
"modulation"), I don't think we perceive it in normal listening and this is why we are
objecting to it. Also, it was not a perceptible aspect of Fluidsynth versions prior to 2.0.
You can illustrate what I mean if, using Audacity with a loaded wave file, you take the mouse
and pull the bottom line of the wave file window down from its normal position. The phase
(time and length of the lines of the wave file) are "amplified." The sound was generated while
confined to the body of the pipe and when released from it, is allowed to diffuse within the
boundaries and baffles of the acoustic environment. It does NOT lose its identity as a flute
or a diapason or a reed or a string. So, its identity character is not changed as it diffuses
in relation to the boundaries and baffles of the environment.
The problem might be that the concept of impulse response (a pistol shot whose initial sound
wave is proportionate to the size of the barrel and, in the free air, is "amplified in size and
diffusion, but not in loudness, since it is, already, beginning to fade out or decay during its
travel time, is not comparable to a musical sound wave having a different size, physical body in
which it is generated and from which it is released into the air. While both are acted upon,
equally, (if the Impulse Response wave was generated in the same physical location as the wind
chests of the organ) by the environment's boundaries and baffles, the application of the
parameters of the Impulse Response file to the organ-stop wave files, is, due to their
respective, physically-modelled origins, different and, therefore, not accurate. If an impulse
response file were made of a note, sounded on the organ played staccato, and the parameters of
that were used as the fundamental for reverberation effect, wouldn't it be more accurate?
Admittedly, mine is a layman's understanding of the subject, and more specific than general,
in regard to the desired effect of reverb for which programmers are developing for, perhaps,
gamers, rather than musicians.
I would be interested to know what others think about this.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-16 04:11
What we need is to have a sound engineer on board in this discussion. Nothing less.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2022-08-16 07:38
Rick,
It seems that you and I have the same view of jOrgan. Sven's original creation was pure MIDI.
Then, somewhere along the way this discussion list started talking about sound generation. One
thing led to another, and before long "fluidsynth" crept in, and became a mainstream topic.
It seems people wanted jOrgan to become a complete musical instrument bundle...something like
GrandOrgue or Hauptwerk.
I guess Sven became convinced that jOrgan, the super MIDI relay, should become polluted with an
audio synth, and thus developed an "under-the-cover" linkage between jOrgan and fluidsynth. The
only redeeming aspect of this abomination is that the 16 channel MIDI limitation is removed in
the linkage between jOrgan and its fluidsynth burden.
Personally I have never used fluidsynth. My initial use of jOrgan was to drive an old
SoundBlaster synth card. Later I moved to the GigaStudio Orchestra software sampler. It worked
great for playing soundfont sample sets built from real organ samples. Finally, I ended up
getting Hauptwerk, (and I agree with Mark that even that miraculous product is now being
corrupted by greed). My "virtual" organ is now Hauptwerk version 4.2 based, with supplemental
voices provided by a jOrgan-controlled Roland SC-88VL synth.
I'll probably never upgrade my Hauptwerk to one of the costly later versions, unless, of course
Microsoft Windows and the Hauptwerk developers conspire to make my Windows 10/Hauptwerk 4.2/
jOrgan VTPO unusable.
CLW
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Rick W on 2022-08-17 14:24
Hi Lynn
Good to know you are still enjoying jOrgan. Great that it can control multiple sound
sources in your setup.
I have used Fluidsynth, but only ever as stage 1 verification of the functional detail in
my disposition, and as part of that process it provided a single functional package I could
circulate to co-developers and make available online.
There has been a lot of water under the bridge over the years and a lot of other things
happening taking my focus, but now I am back researching and testing functions and
connections for my next step. I have revisited Bruce Miles' documentation, the Bill
Skees' 4 volumes, Graham Goode's site, and the jOrgan WIKI on the hunt for the next piece
of my jigsaw puzzle.
(Does anyone know what Bill Skees is doing these days?)
I have jOrgan triggering Hauptwerk as a Box of Ranks, but I am stuck with trying to get
jOrgan Trem Tabs to switch ranks to a different MIDI channel?
One of the example dispositions may have the specific detail, but I have not yet found a
current download.
Any documentation I can find doesn't go into that detail.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-17 15:33
Mark Bugeja wrote:"Perhaps I should gracefully back down and let you guys tease it out.
I'll keep myself at a safer distance and just observe."
Hi Mark,
I hope not! You started this very long thread, and continued to contribute to it. It has
been very productive. At least we now know what the "problem" is with the FS2 reverb,
and don't have to just wonder about it. When I get the chance, I shall have a listen to
the FS2 reverb again, and send in my thoughts about it.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-17 22:17
Hahaha! Really? Well, I neve'.... (trying to imitate Cockney English....)
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Graham Wykes on 2022-08-17 20:22
Hi all,
Though I'm not a "professional" sound engineer, I have a lot of experience in the field
so I might be able to clear up a few points.
1. jOrgan and FS need to be separated in your head. Any synthesis engine that understands
midi could be used with jOrgan. It just so happens that jOrgan contains two elements
(Fluidsynth and Linuxsampler) that makes those two synths easier to use than others.
(I've been musing over swapping to Plogue Sforzando using the sfz format for a while but
sfz doesn't use program changes the way soundfonts do; I'm still puzzling over how to make
it work. BTW it is simple to convert soundfont to sfz with polyphone.)
2. Fluidsynth has an inbuilt reverb. Most synths don't. This makes using it very
convenient. The reverb in FS is an algorithmic reverb. It is NOT convolution and does NOT
use impulse responses. IMO, the problem we are having with FS reverb is a bug, regardless
of what the developers might claim.
This means we need to turn off the FS reverb have a way to use a different reverb
There are a few parameters that are worth knowing about with reverbs.
Predelay: this sets the delay between the initial sound and when the reverb starts.
It is analogous to the time it takes for a sound to go from an instrument to the nearest walls
and get to the listener.
Early: These are the first reflections to get to the listener
Tail or Late: This is the part of the reverb the listener hears dying out after
the sound has bounced around the room.
If you go to https://bedroomproducersblog.com/2011/05/07/bpb-freeware-studio-best-free-
algorithmic-reverb-vst-plugins/ you will see a bunch of free reverb plugins. Some are complex
and some are super simple.
To use plugins, you need a host program. (like VSTHost).
3. As a Linux user, I'm used to being able to route audio wherever I want using JACK. For
Windows users, it's not so simple. The most straightforward way is something like this:
Fluidsynth (with reverb OFF) -> VSTHost -> Plugin - something like Orilriver reverb -> Audio
Out from VSTHost
https://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/orilriver-by-denis-tihanov
This means you are still using FS/SF2 to synthesize your sounds but using an external program
to provide reverb. You'll get much better reverb this way but obviously the setup is fiddly.
My "caveat emptor" here is that I don't use windows and after 20 years as a windows system
administrator I'm not likely to. So those of you running windows will need to try and see if
it works for you. I'm happy to give advice but have no way of testing.
Hope this helps.
Regards
GrahamW
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-08-17 22:07
Thanks Graham, I approve everything you wrote here.
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Chester Berry on 2022-08-23 04:45
Rick W wrote on 2022-08-15:"If we think about the history of MIDI for a moment, we find
a digital serial communication protocol developed for musical instruments to "talk" to each
other. ... "
Superb summary of what jOrgan is -- and is NOT! Thanks for posting this!
Chester H Berry
Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-24 12:14
Hi all,
I have managed to have some listening sessions with the Fluidsynth 2 Reverb, which is actually
the Jot FDN Reverberator and which replaces the Freeverb program being used in the Fluidsynth 1.
It didn't turn out quite as I had planned, taking my wife's Windows 10 laptop into the room
where I have my home console. The issues were hardware ones, one of which I should have
anticipated, and the other completely unexpected. But at least I was able to compare the two
reverbs "at close quarters", and that was useful.
There are two main ways of listening to organs - close up or at some distance. Because of my
history of mainly playing small tracker pipe organs, I am used to the close up sound, and that
is what I prefer as a player. However, to hear the other sound, all I have to do is turn up the
reverb LEVEL, perhaps turn down the main Volume, set the jOrgan Recorder going, and move over
to the other side of the room, and get comfortable on the lounge chair.
I have never found the FS 1 reverb unacceptable, and one would certainly prefer it to no reverb
at all. But it is also quite uninteresting. I am content to leave it at a fairly low level, and
have never really understood the strong disdain that is often voiced about it on the Mailing
List. But the moment I began to hear the reverb being used by FS 2, I could hear a big
difference. I knew there was that disturbing cyclic modulation, but now I wanted to hear it with
real music instead of just holding down one note at a time.
The reverb is much "cleaner" with far less ringing - almost nonexistent. But it is also far more
interesting and satisfying. It makes me feel that the sounds are floating around in a big space,
and I think I would be prepared to put up with the modulation in order to be experiencing this
quite attractive sound. The type of music and the combination of stops would all affect just how
annoying the modulation is, but my early conclusion is that I would prefer to be playing with the
FS 2 reverb than with the FS 1 reverb. I do like the sound, and I think I could learn to put up
with the modulation in order to have that sound. I don't think it likely that the modulation can
be reduced just with a little tweaking. I think it likely that the designer has already set it at
the optimal conditions.
Let's be clear on this point. The modulation is there on purpose. It is a technical device which
greatly reduces the bugbear of ringing in synthetic reverb programs. (It can also happen in real
acoustic settings). The ringing is quite noticeable with FS 1 reverb. It means that certain
pitches dominate in the reverb sound. It is not noticeable with the FS 2 reverb. But as I have
hinted, there are other improvements, which I think may be attributed partly to the fact that the
Jot FDN Reverberator takes mono signals and uses them somehow in a stereo fashion. I think it
sounds much more realistic.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-08-24 19:32
Thanks John,
nice to read someone praising fluidsynth 2 for once.
Best regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-25 03:56
Just a reminder that I posted in Dec of last year a video about Fluidsynth 2 and the reverb...
suggesting a serious look.
https://youtu.be/PrL8jvaF9MQ
Hi JohnR...
I agree with your thoughts. That’s one of the reasons I am working on Qsynth for Ubuntu and
RPi... so far I have been able to make Qsynth work on both systems. There are some unique
problems I am still working on... but I believe it will work.
One more observation. The "disturbing cyclic" sound mentioned by a few is part of the reverb
phenomena. When there are enough controls... as in Advanced EAX... that sound can be minimized.
However, with an intelligent speaker design it can give a thrilling effect for guys like me...
wishing I was in Westminster Abby with the congregation singing and the organ filling the room
with sound.
With less good sound arraignments... I believe that it simply amounts to phase cancellation.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From M Schnell on 2022-08-26 01:01
Hi,
I'd like to try FS2 but can't find a x32 package. My temporary VTPO is on Win7 until I move.
Anyone know if there's a 32 bit download available?
Thanks,
Mike Schnell
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-26 02:56
Hi Mike...
...I don't know what Organ Disposition you are using... but you can use the
Windows version of Qsynth as the sound generator. You connect jOrgan to Qsynth with the Generic
Sound Element. You have to assign the sounds... not stops to the Generic Sound Element and
connect it to Qsynth (opened before jOrgan) with loopMIDI or the equivalent. Then in Qsynth you
go to Setup and in MIDI Device you select the same port you output in jOrgan. That sends MIDI
data to Qsynth... which is a gui for Fluidsynth 2.
Then on the Audio tab select your Audio Driver and Audio Device... the usual other things 16bits,
44100, 512, 8.
On the SoundFont tab load the soundfont you are using in jOrgan and hit OK. Restart engine YES.
You may also want to go to Options and turn on Ouput Peak Level Meters... so you can see if Qsynth
is generating audio.
That's about it.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-26 04:01
With all due respect and no offence meant to anyone, if Qsynth is just a GUI for FS2, why the need
for all this complication when you can just add FS2, kindly provided by Sven, to the lib folder
and simply select it from the configuration tab? I have done this to my version of jOrgan 4.
Some of these posts leave me wondering whether I have missed something along the way or whether,
at my age, I am suffering from early Alzheimer's... I hope not the latter..... 😂
Have fun!
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-26 05:05
This is a good question Dr. Mark...
And the answer is also simple. It does not work. That is... it does not work in version 3x
of jOrgan. I don't personally like version 4x of jOrgan. I only use it where I have to on RPi etc.
I much prefer the controls in Qsynth... and it separates the relay and sound.
I simply offered an alternative that I knew would work regardless of version.
Importing 3x dispositions into 4x does not always work either.
I also can not get a sound out of jOrgan/Fluidsynth on the RPi or Ubuntu Studio. So I simply did
the research until I could figure out how to use Qsynth on all 4 platforms I am working with. I
intend to put together a small disposition that will work on PC, Mac, Ubuntu Studio and RPi... and
release that.
In addition I am working on making existing definitions work with Qsynth... as an alternative.
The reason for that is to give jOrgan a chance to be useful and evolve a little further instead of
End Of Life.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-26 06:01
I got 3.21 version working with fluidsynth 2.2.8.
You need to replace these 3 "fluidsynth" files in the lib folder with the newer ones:
fluidsynth.jar
fluidsynthJNI.dll
jorgan.fluidsynth.Fluidsynth.h
Just tested and it works.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From MikeS on 2022-08-26 09:17
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the suggestion on Qsynth. If it's just a matter of substituting files, I should be
able to go to the Fluidsynth site, pick a 32-bit package, load it in the lib folder, and update
the backend.xml file. As long as there is no compiling being done, it should work. However,
I think some compiling is done on the fly when jOrgan is first loaded. If so, I'm stuck with
FS 1.1.11 until I move. The portaudio is working good. I wish I had had more of an exposure to
java/xml/make etc. in my former job.
Thanks,
Mike Schnell
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Graham Wykes on 2022-08-26 14:36
Hi All
A few more things that I feel need clarifying in this discussion.
The "sound engine" that produces the sound is a library called "libfluidsynth". When a
program needs to synthesize a sound using fluidsynth, it calls an "instance" of libfluidsynth
passing it the parameters it needs to operate. A program may call a number of instances and
each is independent of the other instances. Fluidsynth is agnostic to the calling program.
It waits for midi input and outputs audio according to its parameters - that is all. It is
the version of libfluidsynth we talk about as the fluidsynth version.
In the cases that are relevant here, the two common ways of invoking libfluidsynth and giving
it parameters are jOrgan's fluidsynth element and Qsynth. Neither produces sound. They are
just there to call instances of fluidsynth with the parameters they are set up with by you.
Qsynth just has a fancy GUI and more control over various parameters that aren't necessarily
setable within jOrgan. So you are free to use either as suits your own ideas.
HOWEVER:
There may appear to be a difference between the two calling programs IF you have two different
versions of libfluidsynth in your system and each program calls a different one, OR you set
different parameters in jOrgan vs Qsynth. Perhaps they have each installed their own version
of fluidsynth for example.
So for a valid comparison, you have to make sure you set the same parameter values in both and
they both call the same version of fluidsynth.
Regards
GrahamW
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-26 17:35
The clear text of the .dll file "libfluidsynth" begins on line 968. Most of the abbreviated
terms are decipherable (as differentiated from "sightreadable"). However, the concept of
sequencing MIDI events seems verbosely superfluous to the simplicity of an instrument, key
press/release producing a note-on/note-off, sound.
I suspect that all of these intermediary programs are little more than MIDI sequencer programs
which allow multiple instances of Channel Elements/Track Events. To conceptualize a Soundfont
or soundbank as a small library of sounds would be more logical, in terms of those sounds being
called/handled/applied by a program such as Fluidsynth. The synthesizer is taking the sound
elements (looped recordings of wave files) of the soundfont/bank and articulating the
parameters of their playback, note-on/note-off, pitches having velocity/volume and length in
time. Thus, the fundamental element of a note value in music (notation) 64th,32nd,16th,8th,
4= quarter,2=half, and 1=whole, pitch note-on/note-off. So, the basic elements of the note-on/
note-off value (length in time) of a .mid file and the assigned pitch of the wave file of the
instrument of the preset of the soundfont/bank are the fundamentals of the MIDI system.
Without a soundfont/bank being loaded into RAM, there will be no sound produced even though a
note-on/note-off element of a specified length is present in the piano roll window of a midi
sequencer program producing a .mid file, or if a key is pressed on a keyboard. Fluidsynth is
"there to call instances of pitched, wave files with parameters set by you" in soundfonts.
My learning experience was that the parameters settable in QSynth were limited to Reverb and
Chorus. The instances of Qsynth1, Qsynth2, etc., with individual soundfonts assigned to them,
was less than optimal in comparison to instances of Fluidsynth Sound in jOrgan .
I wonder, other than the model of the orchestra, what motivated or inspired the collaboration
to produce Musical Instrument Digital Interface? I grew up with an acoustic piano and could
not sightread music at all. There is an idiomatic expression in English, "to face the music,"
meaning to have to confront the consequences of one's actions. "Repercussions" seems to apply
rather aptly. Since affordability is the factor that motivates invention and which is, often,
a departure from the conventional, though practicable, the question of practicality or necessity
is relevant, lest we disturb the peace.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-27 01:59
Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote on 2022-08-26 06:01:
"I got 3.21 version working with fluidsynth 2.2.8. ... "
Thankyou so much for this Dr. Mark...
I had forgotten about this discussion.
I was successful in getting the 64bit version of 3.21 to work... however the 32 bit version is
non functional with the "newer" versions of these files.
Which brings me to the question... which one did you test? The list question was about the 32bit
version. I wonder if the new files will work on 32bit.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-27 02:02 ++81
Graham Wykes wrote on 2022-08-26 14:36:
"A few more things that I feel need clarifying in this discussion ... "
Thanks Graham...
This is very helpful. Someone needs to write a technical manual.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-27 09:37
On 26/08/2022 17:59, Marc-Paul via jOrgan-user wrote:
"I wonder if the new files will work on 32bit."
I use 64x of everything. MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Downloading to Raspberry Pi3 +
From Gavin Kieser on 2022-07-25 23:28
Hi,
Please can you help. I'm trying to download Jorgan to my raspberry Pi which has Java 11
installed on it. Nothing happens when I try to download Jorgan. The only download I can
find is jOrgan 3.21.1 dmg, however I believe there is a Jorgan 4.0 Beta2, But I can find
this to download. I also believe that I need to download Fluidsynth. Is this correct?
Please advise.
Kind regards
Gavin
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-07-26 00:37
Here you find the package(s) for the Pi
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-rpi/4.0/
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Gavin Kieser on 2022-07-26 15:44
Thank you Sven. I have now downloaded jOrgan
Kind regards
Gavin
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Gavin Kieser on 2022-07-29 20:18
Hi everyone,
I have been following these emails with interest, and I have seen comments about
"amateurs", and it would seem to me from the technical discussion that has been
going on, that none of you are real amateurs!. You all seem very technically
proficient. Well I'm the real deal amateur.
Can I assume from your discussion that fluidsynth isn't working with jOrgan 4.0 Beta1?
If so, is this just a problem on windows or does this also affect the Raspberry Pi
system, which I'm using.
I'm just finding my way around jOrgan (slowly) and have managed to download the
American organ. I can now get my keyboards recognised by Jorgan, and will have no
problem eventually getting thumb pistons etc recognised. Various Help sites have
been a great help in this regard. What I can't fix is the lack of sound,with the
problems Tab in jorgan continually coming up with " fluidsynth failure"
Any thoughts?
Kind regards
Gavin
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-07-29 23:15
Gavin, since the problem of amplitude modulation with respect to the reverb LEVEL
element in jOrgan Fluidsyth version 2.1 affects everyone who uses it, the new Fluidsynth
version 2.2.8, being incorporated with new releases of jOrgan for all operating systems,
would, also, affect everyone who would use it. If you are just starting out with jOrgan,
and have chosen Paul Stratman's American Classic Organ, you might want to download the
jOrgan 3.21 version and the older portaudio backend file that goes with your system.
That way, you would avoid the problem with the reverb. Our hope is that the latest
version of Fluisynth may have addressed the problem of amplitude modulation with respect
to the LEVEL element setting being anywhere above 0.05 or so, which caused a very
pronounced, and highly audible warped-loop of the wave files. It has a ruinous effect,
particularly, with many stops engaged. While the use of Qsynth control panel and, with it,
the installed version of Fluidsynth 2.2.1 is an improvement, it has some limitations with
respect to the use of multiple soundfonts and MIDI channel assignments vis-à-vis bank numbers.
Eventually, jOrgan would have to have the newest version of Fluidsynth incorporated, anyway,
so it is good that we are concerning ourselves with it, now.
"The lack of sound" you describe, probably, has to do with the audio driver (dsound/portaudio),
in Construct Mode of jOrgan, the Fluidsynth Sound Source element Properties tab, try dsound,
first, and select your audio output device (probably, soundcard speakers) and load the
soundfont (ACO 7.0.sf2?). Make sure the audio buffers and size 8/512 are the same in
Customizer (file menu) and the Fluidsynth Sound Source tab and that sample rate 44,100 and
polyphone 512 in the Fluidsynth Sound Source (soundfont) are the settings.
Good Luck and welcome!
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-30 02:35
Ensure the correct version of Java (32x or 64x) depending on which jOrgan you installed.
Regards
Mark MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Qsynth
From John Beach on 2022-07-25 21:45
Marc-Paul, consistently, I have a problem with Qsynth having a "failed to create
the MIDI driver (winmidi)" when attempting to create the instances of Qsynth necessary
for each of the soundfonts of a jOrgan disposition that must be opened on the Soundfonts
tab of the Qsynth Setup windows for each instance Qsynth1, Qsynth 2, etc.
It seems that it will not allow more than one Qsynth instance to complete setup with
the MIDI driver winmidi.
Are there required channel settings that determine whether the winmidi driver is created,
properly?
Thanks,
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-26 02:49
John B...
...I have had that problem occasionally. I have been unable to exactly nail
down why that happens. I am not sure if it's the order things are started in or if the
system see's the midi driver in use somewhere else. It was most noticeable when I was
experimenting with Jack.
My only consistent observation is that occasionally one of the instance settings will be
incorrect upon restart and I have to correct it and restart Qsynth... not just the engine.
My issue usually disappears on restart of the computer.
Usually when I start Qsynth my previous instants show up and work without intervention.
My MIDI Device setting seems to remain OK. This is on Win11Pro.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-26 06:55
Marc-Paul,
I also am having problems with getting Qsynth to work, in my case on a Windows 10
(Home version). I get a message saying that it has failed to create WASAPI. I suspect
that the computer may be the problem, as I have not found a way to get WASAPI active.
It probably is no difficulty with Windows 10 Pro.
The way forward here may be that users who do have success with Qsynth (even just one
instance) report on whether they hear a big improvement in the reverb. John Beach has
given us one such report. I was planning to give my own report, but I do not have the
time to address my Qsynth problem. I might say that I have had no trouble on previous
occasions, but that was with earlier versions of Qsynth.
If we receive one or more favourable reports on how the "new" reverb sounds, then I hope
that Sven will release some new jOrgan versions which install the latest version of
Fluidsynth.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-26 10:06
JohnR...
WASAPI seems to want the sound card driver to NOT be in exclusive mode...
that's in control panel Sound.
In Qsynth I could then select WASAPI and Audio Device: default... and NOT
check the WASAPI Exclusive Mode on that window.
I then had no problem with jOrgan sending audio via WASAPI.
The sound card in this machine is a SoundBlaster X-fi.
This is on a Win10 machine. Actually and older Dell XPS 420 that's still
real solid.
Hope this helps...
Cheers
Marc-Paul MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Dispositions w/qsynth Raspberry, Windows, Mac
From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-30 09:31
I am just about done with a small disposition that I can release that will work
with Qsynth on Raspberry Pi, Windows and Mac. (jOrgan 3.21)
The only thing that I need is a Midi Loop Back or Virtual Cable for the Raspberry Pi.
So far it seems I need to link Alsa and Jack… I haven’t quite got that right.
Anyone have experience with something that works?
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-30 22:09
Marc-Paul,
I have never needed a virtual cable to connect jOrgan to Jack using jOrgan on an RPi.
All one has to do is to have jackd installed, and use the command line qjackctl to
start it. The Fluidsynth audio driver has to be set to "jack" before jack will start.
I must admit that on the RPi 4B which I am using as a desktop, I have just tried this
out, and all I get is distortion. On the other hand, I have used jack with success for
years using the RPi 3B+ for my console installation.
So I am giving a very mixed message.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc on 2022-07-30 23:16
Thanks JohnR...
...I have no trouble with audio either Jack or Alsa...
I can play the soundfont in Qsynth remotely and check.
The issue is a virtual midi cable so the midi keying can be sent to Qsynth from jOrgan.
I have found a couple implementations but I don't quite understand how to do it yet.
I want to provide complete instructions for all three platforms.
I do have a question for you... what sound card are you using with your Raspberry?
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-31 03:37
I thought I'd see what Qsynth is all about.
Is Qsynth available for Win10?
What does one do with a ***.tar.gz file?
Sorry if the questions sound stupid.... but.... if I don't know, I ask. I've been like that
since my school days much to the consternation of my friends in class.... and the teachers
(you? again?)....... hahaha!
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-31 16:39
Marc-Paul wrote:"The issue is a virtual midi cable ..."
"what sound card are you using with your Raspberry?"
Marc-Paul,
The RPi, along probably with other Linux distributions, seems to have virMIDI already.
A large number of cables (?) turn up when you use page 1 of the jOrgan customizer,
along with other options. I have never had to use them, and cannot give any advice
except to use Google searches, starting with "virMIDI".
On the RPi 4B I use as a desktop, I simply use the internal soundcard.
On my console RPi 3B+, I use a DAC HAT which I think is no longer available, but now
RPi seem to be marketing their own.
I should add that a few months ago I saw an RPi announcement to the effect that they
are no longer supporting the RPi 3B+ and are concentrating on the RPi 4 or some of the
"mini" RPi cards. This seems to have obvious implications as to how long the RPi 3B+
will be available.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-07-31 16:47
Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote:"Is Qsynth available for Win10?"
"What does one do with a ***.tar.gz file?"
Yes. Use Google Search to find their website.
It is a compressed Linux file. Look for the ***.zip file.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-31 17:38
I downloaded it from sourceforge (no zip or exe files that I could see on their website).
I installed it already but cannot figure out what to do with it. I have loopMIDI too.
I am too busy to look into Panos' instructions (God bless his soul) of how to set up
loopMIDI, virtual cables etc.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-01 01:12
Thankyou JohnR...
...I believe my issue is that I am still using
the Raspberry 2.
I will look into the Rapsberry 4.
Any suggestions as to the configuration would be helpful.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-01 09:33
Marc-Paul wrote:"Any suggestions as to the configuration would be helpful."
Hi Marc-Paul,
I'm not sure what else I can add at this point. I have no problem using jOrgan on my
RPi 4B desktop. However, I have no experience with Qsynth, and I certainly haven't
had success with it on my RPi 4B. I have tried.
What troubles me is that although the jOrgan Customizer detects all those virMIDI
cables, Qsynth does not.
However, there is a virMIDI webpage which you could explore:
https://github.com/samwho/jarvis/blob/master/README_virmidi.md
There are others a Google search brought up, such as:
https://alsa.opensrc.org/Virmidi
Or perhaps you can find another Linux vertual cable that is suitable.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-01 09:37
JohnR...
...I have ordered a 4B and will look forward to getting
everything working.
Thanks
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-01 09:38
Qsynth played from the Jack Keyboard one note at a time and one stop at a
time sounds good. So I am still hopeful that this will work out good.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-01 09:54
Marc-Paul wrote:"Qsynth played from the Jack Keyboard one note at a time and one stop at a
time sounds good."
Can you set the Reverb Level to 20 and the Room to 95, then hold a note down (one stop
only), and tell us if you can hear that cyclic modulation about one every second?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-01 10:52
OK... had the routing thru Fluidsynth instead of Qsynth.
With the 8' Montre stop on I hear the sample cycling but nothing like
"Chorus".
Was that your question?
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-01 11:03
Marc-Paul wrote:"With the 8' Montre stop on I hear the sample cycling".
Hi Marc-Paul,
That's not the answer I was hoping to hear!
I'm not interested in Chorus, and I don't even know what it should sound like.
Thanks very much for trying it out.
Best wishes,
JohnR MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
RPi "no valid disposition"
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-03 04:04
JohnR or anyone that knows about Pi..
.reinstalled the OS on Raspberry Pi 2 and using jOrgan 3.2.1B3.
jOrgan 4 won't install.
When I create a small disposition and attempt to open it after shutting down
it says "no valid disposition".
Do you have any idea what I am doing wrong?
Thanks
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-03 14:39
Marc-Paul wrote:"…reinstalled the OS on Raspberry Pi 2 and using jOrgan
3.2.1B3. jOrgan 4 won't install.
When I create a small disposition and attempt to open it after
shutting down it says 'no valid disposition'. "
Marc-Paul,
By "raspberry Pi 2", do you mean RPi 3B+, or is it RPi 4 B?
There is only one official jOrgan version for RPi these days.
It is jorgan_4.0.Beta3_armhf.deb . Is that what you are using? It should work on the
RPi 3 B+ and also on the RPi 4B.
I don't recognise 3.21.1 B3. Is it an early jOrgan version meant for the RPi? Only
files which contain "armhf" can be expected to work with the RPi.
Please reply before I go further on your problems.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-04 05:04
JohnR..
..I mis-spoke.
I did have the version 4 for Raspberry installed. It just won't start. The Java version is 8 and 9.
I finally disassembled the Pi and found it is a 3B+.
I attempted a start from the command line and here is what was displayed.
Java 8:
i@raspberrypi:/usr/lib/jorgan $ sudo java -jar jorgan.jar
Error: A JNI error has occurred, please check your installation and try again
Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsupportedClassVersionError: jorgan/bootstrap/Bootstrap has been compiled by a more recent version of the Java Runtime (class file version 55.0), this version of the Java Runtime only recognizes class file versions up to 52.0
at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass1(Native Method)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass(ClassLoader.java:756)
at java.security.SecureClassLoader.defineClass(SecureClassLoader.java:142)
at java.net.URLClassLoader.defineClass(URLClassLoader.java:473)
at java.net.URLClassLoader.access$100(URLClassLoader.java:74)
at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:369)
at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:363)
at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(URLClassLoader.java:362)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:418)
at sun.misc.Launcher$AppClassLoader.loadClass(Launcher.java:352)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:351)
at sun.launcher.LauncherHelper.checkAndLoadMain(LauncherHelper.java:601)
pi@raspberrypi:/usr/lib/jorgan $
Java 9:
pi@raspberrypi:/usr/lib/jorgan $ java -jar jorgan.jar
Error: LinkageError occurred while loading main class jorgan.bootstrap.Bootstrap
java.lang.UnsupportedClassVersionError: jorgan/bootstrap/Bootstrap has been compiled
by a more recent version of the Java Runtime (class file version 55.0), this version of
the Java Runtime only recognizes class file versions up to 53.0
pi@raspberrypi:/usr/lib/jorgan $
I can't seem to find a later version of Java for the RPi... obviously I have missed
something important.
BTW... Qsynth for the RPi does not include Fluidsynth 2. I have found it mentioned
that it can be compiled for the Raspberry... I am still checking that out.
Thanks for the help...
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-08-04 06:40
Hi Marc-Paul,
you'll need Java 11.
It should be the default version on Raspi:
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/install-java-raspberry-pi
Regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-04 08:09
Thanks Sven..
..but I have been to that website already and my 3B+ does not
update past Java 9.
I will continue to see what I can figure out.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-04 08:15
Sven Meier wrote:"you'll need Java 11."
Hi Sven,
I have noticed that the default version of Java for the RPi is 11. As a matter of
interest, do your words mean that Java version 8 (RPi version) will not work with the
RPi for jOrgan? (That does seem to be the case for Marc-Paul, although of course,
there may be other issues in play.)
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-04 08:35
Hi Sven,
I see that Raspberry Pi are now referring to their official OS as the "Raspberry Pi OS",
and that a 64-bit version is available that is compatible with all RPi models.
https://www.raspberrypi.com/software/operating-systems/
Is our 32-bit version of jOrgan for the RPi likely to work OK on that 64-bit version?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-08-04 08:40
No, it won't work.
The native parts are compiled for 32-bit currently.
I'd advise to stick to 32-bit Pi OS for now.
Regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-08-04 08:40
JohnR wrote:"do your words mean that Java version 8 (RPi version) will not work with the
RPi for jOrgan?"
Yes, it won't work:
I've compiled jOrgan on my Raspi with Java 11, so you'll need that same version
at least.
Regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-08-04 08:42
What is the ouput of the following:
cat /etc/os-release
Regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-04 11:23
Sven & JohnR...
While I can diagnose a Mac or PC in a few minutes... my Linux skills are limited.
Which is why I am trying to create the same small disposition on 3 platforms and
learn more about the RPi.
My mistake was thinking that I was installing the current Raspberry OS. I was not.
The installer errored out and didn't update.
I am downloading the newest OS from rapsberrypi.com and installing it now.
I expect that everything will work as it should... and my new RPi4 comes tomorrow.
MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Fluidsynth Reverb LEVEL
From JohnB on 2022-08-06 00:17
Even more specifically, I believe that the setting of the Depth2, CC#92 is the problem,
since CC91# is the Switch which turns on (0 or 127, 1 or 128) and the setting 1-128
regulates the LEVEL of Depth2 (CC#92) which effectuates tremolo in Reverb, which is what
I describe as "amplitude modulation" of the soundfont wave file, the looped-cycling that
we find so objectionable. This is what is causing the problem.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-06 03:38
The Fluidsynth Reverb LEVEL problem is independent of the settings in the soundfont
instrument for MOD LFO Frequency and VIB LFO Frequency which are used for both, Tremulant
Rate and for the Wind Vibrato (14.285Hz), of Flexible Wind in jOrgan. I proved this by
using the Fluidsynth-example file that is a standard inclusion of the download package
in jOrgan. Leaving both the MOD LFO Frequency and VIB LFO Frequency settings at 0, I
added the reverb elements to the Fluidsynth-example disposition and played both Stop 0
and Stop 1 with the Room, Width, Damping and Level settings at 92, 64, 44,
and 0.01 to 1.0, respectively and the looped-cycling of the wave file is just as prominent
and noticeable.
What seems apparent is that the Depth2 (CC#92) is set to an amount which, regardless of a
setting of 1 or 127, does NOT cause the problem of looped-cycling, warp and woof in
versions of fluidsynth prior to 2.0 and of jOrgan prior to version 3.2, approximately.
Was some change made to the software stipulating a higher Depth2 rate in the later
versions and that may be why we hear the difference?
I can not cause this effect using a General Sound Soundfont with factory preset parameters
in the instruments and using my midi sequencer program which has the capability to specify
continuous controllers and their depths. What I hear, audibly, is that CC91 effectuates
the activation of the Reverb Effect, (0 or 127, OFF or ON), but does NOT change the amount
of reverb if a lower number than 127 is entered as a value setting. The Depth2 does affect
the amount of Reverb effect, but it is so slight as to be, hardly, discernible. This may
depend on the parameter settings of the individual instrument in the soundfont. Perhaps,
the problem is that, in MIDI electronics, we are limited to the wave file as the fundamental
actuator and the midi system is trying to create a simulation (using electronics) of a
natural phenomenon that is, physically, relative to the properties of a space. I don't
believe you can, digitally, process an instrument wave file by the parameters of an
Impulse Response wave file and expect to get a coherent steady-state sound between attack
and release that remains unmodulated by the disparities in the two wave files. If wave
file length in seconds is a variable problem affecting frequency, we must know the optimum
length of a wave file and the optimum loop points that would prevent cycling in the steady-
state. Again, since this problem does NOT exist in the settings of Creative EAX, it must be
soluble by a change in the maximum-allowable setting of the CC#92 Depth2 of Reverb.
I think the reverb environment has to exist, separately, from the wave file (actuator) of the
soundfont parameters, the latter, being what actuates and is acted upon by the parameter
settings which
distort the wave.
I hope this is not "as clear as mud."
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-06 04:50
Using a counter (not a slider) for the Fluidsynth Reverb settings, with the settings of
ROOM and WIDTH at 1.0 (FULL), and Damping at 64, the LEVEL must be 0.03 or less in order
to eliminate the looped-cycling of the effect. Higher settings merely increase the
amplitude (volume) of the looped cycling of the wave file sound.
I don't know if these observations are of any value to Sven, but, again, since the problem
is unique to the use of Fluidsynth WITH jOrgan, it has something to do with the way it is
treated by jOrgan as different from Polyphone.
I don't think there is anything more that I can add that would be of help.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-08-06 05:21
Hi John,
John Beach wrote:”problem is unique to the use of Fluidsynth WITH jOrgan”
there isn't anything unique to the usage of fluidsynth from jOrgan.
Qsynth shows the same problem with the reverb.
> it has something to do with the way it is treated by jOrgan as different from Polyphone.
Does Polyphone use fluidsynth at all? I can't find any proof of that, to me it seems
Polyphone uses it's own sound engine:
https://github.com/davy7125/polyphone/tree/master/sources/sound_engine
Regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-06 06:42
So why has there been so much discussion over the use of Qsynth as an alternative to FS?
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-08-06 07:06
Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote:"So why has there been so much discussion over the use of
Qsynth as an alternative to FS?"
... because with Qsynth you can use whatever fluidsynth version comes with it.
With a custom jOrgan backend you have the same possibility.
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-08-06 07:12
Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote:"Can't this sound engine be used with jOrgan? It seems there
are no license issues to prohibit its use or even its modification”
Sven Meier wrote:"it seems Polyphone uses it's own sound engine"
I'm not even sure about the validity of my statement, I just didn't find any trace
of fluidsynth in polyphone.
There are many possibilities, probably each has its drawbacks too.
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-06 08:41
Perhaps we ought to give it a try...
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-06 11:28
Sven, I was using the "If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck and it quacks
like a duck, it is, probably, a duck"........that is, from looking at the "synth" tab
in Polyphone, the controls, although "dial-style," are ROOM, WIDTH, DAMPING and LEVEL
and have the same number of positions (about 9 positions above 0, similar to the classic
skin, slider size in jOrgan). I believe that the developer of Polyphone, Dave Tripponey,
monitors jOrgan's forum, or, at least, he has in the past. Perhaps, he could tell us
what the reverb elements are with respect to the sound engine that is used in Polyphone.
If it is not Fluidsynth, no matter. There has to be some way of determining whether
the problem is in the CC92 Depth2 entries in the software. I think that looking
elsewhere is a wild goose chase.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-06 11:31
Qsynth is nothing more than the graphic user interface (GUI) for Fluidsynth. I believe
the current download uses Fluidsynth 2.2.6, not 2.2.8.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-06 22:48
In mentioning my use of a midi sequencer program to test out the midi reverb with
a General Sound soundfont, I, erroneously, stated that the CC#91 (Reverb Amount)
was a switch that turned the reverb ON and OFF and that CC#92 controlled the Depth2
of reverb. That is incorrect. CC#91 effectuates the AMOUNT of reverb from 0 to 127
in the mixer settings of my sequencer program. The Depth2, while defined by the
MIDI Specification as "controls the amount of tremolo, has no perceptible effect,
which may be due to parameter settings in the instrument of the soundfont ,
i.e., MOD LFO or VIB LFO Frequencies which set the amount (as we know from the use
of them with the Tremolo Switch Filters in jOrgan).
MIDI CC 91 Effect 1 Depth Usually a control for reverb in your instrument.
MIDI CC 92 Effect 2 Depth Usually a control for the amount of tremolo.
MIDI CC 93 Effect 3 Depth Usually a control for the amount of chorus.
MIDI CC 94 Effect 4 Depth Usually a control for the amount of detuning.
MIDI CC 95 Effect 5 Depth Usually a control for the amount of phasing.
Sorry for any confusion that I may have caused.
John Beach MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Fluidsynth SoundFont Discussion
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-06 09:42
First... here is a relevant discussion of the issue... well anyway it seems to me:
https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/issues/149
The short of it is this:
"I just noted that there is a pattern to your informative logging. It seems that the
problem samples have a loop end value which extends beyond the length of the sample."
There is a solution proposed and tested in the rest of the text.
I wish to thank Sven for his continued expertise and support of... and I count myself
in this: "mürrische alte Männer"
Please laugh here.
Regards
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-06 11:50
Hi all,
Marc-Paul wrote:"here is a relevant discussion of the issue… "
The most recent post in that Fluidsynth discussion seems to have been in August 2017.
Does anyone know when Fluidsynth 2 was released?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-06 14:55
Fluidsynth 2.0 Beta 1 was, first, released in May, 2018. Fluidsynth 2.0.0 was released
on September 14, 2018.
FROM THE jORGAN ARCHIVES OF 2018: jOrgan 4.0 came out in 2018, also.
MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Raspberry Pi Issues
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-14 01:57
I did a fresh install of the current Bullseye on my RPi 3B+.
Installed jOrgan.
I can open jOrgan but not save a disposition.
I moved the jOrgan files to Public as I would on a Mac.
jOrgan opens fine and I can create a disposition from a soundfont and save it.
I can communicate to the RPi from another computer sending from jOrgan to jOrgan via Lan.
I have no Fluidsynth showing up in jOrgan in View/Configuration.
I can play a soundfont in Qsynth from the Jack Keyboard… so I know that Fluidsynth is
installed on the RPi. The soundfont does not sound correctly… but if I load a GM
sound font it plays fine from the Jack Keyboard on any of three sound outputs… HDMI,
Internal or SoundBlaster USB.
Here is what jOrgan says no matter how or where I start it from:
Aug 13, 2022 10:36:42 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_OPEN_FILE action is not supported on the current platform!
Aug 13, 2022 10:36:43 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_QUIT_HANDLER action is not supported on the current platform!
Aug 13, 2022 10:36:43 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_PREFERENCES action is not supported on the current platform!
Aug 13, 2022 10:36:43 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_ABOUT action is not supported on the current platform!
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-16 10:07
Raspberry Pi 3B+ running Raspbian 11 “Bullseye”
I continue to be interested in Qsynth for multiple reasons… not the least of which
is that jOrgan is indeed a relay. Having installed a number of digital relays on pipe
organs… of various manufacture… you wouldn’t confuse the relay with the pipes… now
would you.
I have never been able to get Fluidsynth in jOrgan on the RPi to issue a sound… so I
was motivated to get Qsynth to work.
2.1.7 is the version of Fluidsynth reported by the command line.
We need to merge Alsa and Jack to get jOrgan to send midi data to Qsynth. That turns out
not to be very difficult… after about a hundred failed attempts and 2 weeks of trying I
realized that Qjackctl / Graph is color coded. And some Virtual cables are provided by
the system.
We must merge Alsa and Jack… first start Jack without midi.
Then command line a2jmidid. If not installed… do so from the repository.
Start Qsynth and use Jack as Midi and Audio. The rest of the settings are
normal for jOrgan.
Make sure to install your soundfont.
Start jOrgan… mine is in the “Public” folder as it wouldn’t work anywhere else.
(java -jar jorgan.jar)
Use Generic Sound Element and set the output to “VirMidi 1.0.0”
Go back to Jack Graph and connect VirMidi 1-0 on the left to Qsynth. (red)
When you play keys with stops on you will see midi data going into Qsynth1. I also have
the audio meters displayed so I know audio is going out.
It is much easier to adjust the Reverb on Qsynth… I use a high Damp factor to avoid some
of the issues mentioned by all.
So far I have only one instance of Qsynth working… but I hope to have at least 3
working soon.
Happy Times &
Please all feel Gratitude for jOrgan and Sven!
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-08-17 05:42
Hi Marc-Paul,
"I have no Fluidsynth showing up in jOrgan in View/Configuration."
there isn't anything related to Fluidsynth in jOrgan's configuration.
Have you tried opening the fluidsynth-example.disposition that comes with the jOrgan package?
Please check the "Problems" view in jOrgan and the log file in ~/.jorgan/app.log
Regards
Sven MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Pipedreams on the Auditorium Organ
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-14 02:04
A note of general interest.
This week on PipeDreams (pipedreams.org) the featured organ is the RLDS (Community
of Christ) 1959 Aeolian-Skinner. (Excellent picture also.)
There are interviews with John Obetz included. The very first work on the program
made me stop realize the majesty of what we all love.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
jOrgan and FS
From steve on 2022-08-14 19:02
Hello everyone.
I only had one comment on all this, I hope that any alternative to FS will work with
my Linux Mint SO. I have been using jOrgan for over 10 years and have had few problems.
All the soundfonts I have downloaded such as the English Cathedral sample set work well
on my system as well as the 40 rank Wurlitzer I have made.
I must also say I am using jOrgan 3.21.1 and the matching FS
Steve Rowley.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-14 23:55
Hi Steve...
...I am also using jOrgan 3.21.1. I'd love to hear some details about
your setup. Sound card and any particular Organ you patterned your Wurlitzer after.
Cheers
Marc-Paul MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Windows vs other
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-18 19:48
GrahamW wrote:'My "caveat emptor" here is that I don't use windows and after 20 years as a windows
system administrator I'm not likely to. So those of you running windows will need to
try and see if it works for you. I'm happy to give advice but have no way of testing.
Hope this helps.'
Hi Graham W et al,
I have just now installed a 4TB SSD (sata) and I was thinking of installing Zorin as OS.
From what I make out, this is a glorified Linux OS but capable of rendering the familiar
Windows features. This is important to me as I cannot understand the linux lingo often
discussed. It's like writing instructions in DOS. Even the names are ultra confusing,
such things as puppy, wine..... are there crisps and cheeses, cats or mice? Sorry....
these are not meant to mock the system.... it's that I find them hilarious, but sadly
no logic behind them.... you either know what they are or mean or you don't. Defrag is
a logical name as it almost describes what it is supposed to do.... I would remember that
forever but when it comes to Linux I am scared out of my wits as I feel I become completely
helpless should I need to troubleshoot or do something. I won't know where to begin and
what direction I have to take and also I am very reluctant to learn computer code to do
things! If Zorin is what I believe it to be, having always used Windows since it first came
out, then I think I should be fine and dry.
Which version of jOrgan should I be installing? Linux?
If Zorin allows the smooth running of Windows programs, then can I install jOrgan for
Windows as I normally do?
Initially, and just to make sure I do have a good experience with zorin, I plan to keep
the original HDD with Windows and run the SSD OS by selecting it at boot-up. That way I can
choose what to keep using until I make a permanent change to the new OS or revert back to
the old by installing Win 10 on the SSD (and scrap Zorin altogether).
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Roy Radford on 2022-08-18 23:13
Hi, Mark,
So far as I'm aware there are no cats in Puppy Linux but you CAN use a mouse with it!
Have fun,
Roy. (UK)
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-19 00:12
Roy, good to know you are still breathing air over there. I was wondering how you were
doing since we had not heard from you in a while.
Cheerio,
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Roy Radford on 2022-08-19 00:37
Hi, John,
Oh yes, still alive from the neck down! *:)) laughing
Actually my rig is frozen back in the Jurassic era, I'm fast approaching 84 years young
and not doing much playing or tinkering these days, probably forgotten how I got the
contraption to work in the first place by now!. I have very little to offer the group as
my interest is entirely in orchestral, rather than pipe organs and I have no use for
Fluidsynth, which seems to be the main topic of discussions here. I use an ancient version
of jOrgan running under Linux Mint to drive a couple of Edirol SD-20 MIDI modules. The
system does pretty much all I need so I tend to agree with our friends across The Pond,
if it ain't broke don't fix it!
Had a medical scare recently, low sodium level. After the usual stuff doctors do he
offered the comforting advice, "If you start feeling unwell, go straight to hospital."
OK so far and still as daft as ever! *:)) laughing
Have fun,
Roy. (UK)
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-19 10:09
Hi Roy,
Indeed..... you still pack a great punch!
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2022-08-19 04:37
Mark,
Zorin Linux may not be what you are hoping for. Zorin *IS* linux. Zorin is just another
linux implementation -- like Red Hat, or Ubuntu, or Puppy, or SUSE, or Fedora, or Mint, or
Debian, or any of the other multitude of linux packagers. Only Zorin's customized display
screens attempt to emulate the Windows-like APPEARANCE.
You will still have to use Wine (for linux) if you want to run any software built for real
Windows. Remember: only under the thinnest of visual displays will you see anything Windows-
like. Zorin is just another linux distribution.
See here:
https://www.stackscale.com/blog/popular-linux-distributions/
Zorin is just another linux distribution!!!
CLW
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-19 09:53
I did mention that myself ie it is Linux.
What I hope for is not having to meddle with code to implement what I need to do.
If I can get to run jOrgan, GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk, I think I'd be happy as I shall be
using it on my organ computer only.
Why Zorin? A friend of mine who I consider a computer geek and familiar with Windows and
Linux has had nothing but praise for this OS and made it sound a perfect alternative to
Windows. Since I have blind faith (well almost) in what he said, I thought I should give
it a try once the opportunity arose and got myself another drive installed. If the worst
comes to the worst, I will clone my current windows based HDD onto the 4TB drive and carry
on using Windows as I have done ever since I started using computers (with the exception
of the brief initial stint using MSX Spectravideo..... but that was at the dawn of modern
home computer technology some 40+ years ago.... I don't think Windows existed then).
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-19 10:53
Since I posted last, the installation process froze. It seems like others have experienced
the same and the solution reads like this:
When you try to install Ubuntu on the same Windows disk, Ubiquity is stopped on the Updates
and other Software screen. So far the solution is to open the GNOME Disks application, and
unmount and mount the Windows boot partition several times.
When rebooting the installer displays a message that partitions are mounted and if you want
Ubiquity to unmount them. When answering Yes, the installation continues.
See what I mean...... open the GNOME Disks application, unmount and mount..... What in God's
name is GNOME? How do I do what's recommended? The solution itself poses more questions than
the answer it is supposed to deliver.
In short... abandon ship! Forget Linux. It's got a loooong way to go for me! I haven't even
started Zorin and the experience is already a bad one.... God knows what would be in store
later even if I managed to get through this one. I want a relaxed retirement playing the
organs I have collected over some 10 years, not one riddled with computer issues and more
troubleshooting than playing!
Back to Windows I go.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-08-19 12:29
Hi Dr Mark,
To be fair Linux is not for everyone. Sometimes it just works other times you have issues
like you are encountering. For those non-technical windows is the best option. Install java
and off you go with jOrgan. Those that like to get into the nitty gritty then Linux might be
an option as well.
If you need any assistance though and opt to try Linux again let me know and I can show you
what I have installed and even assist you in installing it.
Regards,
Jonathan Aquilina
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-20 16:27
Thanks Jonathan,
I have already cloned my system onto a new SSD and set things up. As you say, Linux is not for
everyone and, though I once did manage to set a laptop up with some version of this OS, I could
never solve issues that cropped up from time to time. Even the software the equivalent of Word
and Excel were a far cry from what I was used to.... and all the more now. I am pretty much
glued to Windows and it not worth the hassle of changing once it has served me so well for so
long. If I knew I would live another hundred years, I might just be bold enough to give Linux
another try.... 😉.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Kevin J King on 2022-08-19 15:24
Hi Mark, Hauptwerk will not run on Linux at all. Perhaps I'd suggest a windows partition for Hauptwerk?
Regards
Kevin
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-19 20:50
First, this is not a criticism, just an observation from having attempted, perhaps, a dozen
times to make use of older, outdated desktops which, upgrades in operating systems, caused
to be relegated to the garbage dump while they were, still, in perfectly good, working condition.
One of the values of certain of the versions of Linux is that they will work with older,
outdated hardware (MMX as contrasted with SSE2 in processors), which seems to have been the
significant dividing line between Windows (DOS) 3.1, 95, 98 and XP (NT, 4.0), Windows 7,8,
and 10 and, now, 11. This may not be precise, but, no matter, Linux's versatility is the point.
The preparation of a hard drive for installation of Linux requires the downloading and burning
to installation disk or flash drive of the G-Part formatting and partitioning tool, and the same
for the operating system to be installed. While, usually, these will go, somewhat, normally,
they will, often, run from the installation disk instead of installing permanently on the hard
drive.
In the initial boot sequence to install, the entire load processes in Linux are shown, scrolling,
as they are successful, or fail. The sheer volume of information and the speed of it, as it is
installed, make you wonder why it would be shown to any purpose at all. Here is where the
intimidation of Linux begins and, with the structural organization of the Root Drive, the
confident and adept Windows user is, literally, lost to know where the parts of installed
programs are located.
There seems to be a lack of clear, concise, packaged information that describes for the would-be
Linux user the structure of the Linux system, where application folders and files are, such that
it is as comprehensible and user-friendly as Windows. After Linux has installed, it is the
process of installing other programs that is bewildering. I have found Linux to be so
frustrating that I have given up.
Linux is the "whole that equals the sum of its parts" and, unfortunately, it is the parts that
seem to get lost in the shuffle. There is, always, the requirement of an md checksum for the
validity of packaged applications, and installations seem to be lacking some related part or
need the internet to be able to update or download the most recent version of a file. These
aspects or conditions for the use of Linux are a discouragement, even to someone who is familiar
with the content of programs. Once installed, the individual parts seem to be located in
different folders of the Root drive and finding them for purposes of, for example, audio driver
installation, was problematic.
I have come to believe that the developers of Linux are not overly concerned about, either, its
success or its proliferation to the general public and that they, gladly, accept the idea (as
some badge of honor) that Linux will never have the ready utilitarian value and ease of use of
Windows. If Linux users are more "geek" or "nerd" than Windows users and they pride themselves
on the distinction of having an operating system that requires a thorough knowledge of DOS, they
have achieved this distinction, for what it is worth.
John Beach
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From John Maher on 2022-08-20 01:57
Dr. Bugeja,
With all due respect, sir, some of Windows' error codes are no more helpful, IMHO. There are even
jokes about Windows' help desk giving precisely accurate information that is also totally useless.
Maybe things have improved of late, but there is a reason that many folk in the arts are huge fans
of the other commercially viable operating system.
John
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Mickey Sadler on 2022-08-20 06:05
A good description of the Linux file structure can be found at
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/linux-file-hierarchy-structure/ .
Another good explanation is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbgzrKJvDRw .
A good intro to Linux is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROjZy1WbCIA .
These would be good to look at if you are using a Raspberry PI since the PI OS is based on Linux.
I can also use the Unix/Linux commands in Terminal on my iMac. Sometimes that is helpful when
tinkering on the computer.
Mickey
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From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-20 08:15
I agree. Don't get me wrong. It's a case that I know little to nothing of the Linux OS/s whereas
I have gotten used to Windows with all its warts. Linux is all the more confusing because there
are so many variations on the theme, one would not know which is which and what's what. Names
given are not helpful at all. I believe Linux is used to drive the rovers on Mars so there must
be something more than good about it but for me it's like groping in the dark. To substantiate my
argument, I tried to install Zorin - the installation froze half way through; the solution offered
was nothing I could understand and act upon. The experience stalled before even reaching the
starting line... I wasn't able even to get as far as having the system installed, never mind what
could have followed whilst using it. Me and Linux are simply incompatible.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-20 12:50
First, this is not a criticism, just an observation from having attempted, perhaps, a dozen times
to make use of older, outdated desktops which, upgrades in operating systems, caused to be
relegated to the garbage dump while they were, still, in perfectly good, working condition.
One of the values of certain of the versions of Linux is that they will work with older, outdated
hardware (MMX as contrasted with SSE2 in processors), which seems to have been the significant
dividing line between Windows (DOS) 3.1, 95, 98 and XP (NT, 4.0), Windows 7,8, and 10 and, now,
11. This may not be precise, but, no matter, Linux's versatility is the point.
The preparation of a hard drive for installation of Linux requires the downloading and burning to
installation disk or flash drive of the G-Part formatting and partitioning tool, and the same for
the operating system to be installed. While, usually, these will go, somewhat, normally, they will,
often, run from the installation disk instead of installing permanently on the hard drive.
In the initial boot sequence to install, the entire load processes in Linux are shown, scrolling,
as they are successful, or fail. The sheer volume of information and the speed of it, as it is
installed, make you wonder why it would be shown to any purpose at all. Here is where the
intimidation of Linux begins and, with the structural organization of the Root Drive, the confident
and adept Windows user is, literally, lost to know where the parts of installed programs are located.
There seems to be a lack of clear, concise, packaged information that describes for the would-be
Linux user the structure of the Linux system, where application folders and files are, such that it
is as comprehensible and user-friendly as Windows. After Linux has installed, it is the process of
installing other programs that is bewildering. I have found Linux to be so frustrating that I have
given up.
Linux is the "whole that equals the sum of its parts" and, unfortunately, it is the parts that seem
to get lost in the shuffle. There is, always, the requirement of an md checksum for the validity
of packaged applications, and installations seem to be lacking some related part or need the internet
to be able to update or download the most recent version of a file. These aspects or conditions for
the use of Linux are a discouragement, even to someone who is familiar with the content of programs.
Once installed, the individual parts seem to be located in different folders of the Root drive and
finding them for purposes of, for example, audio driver installation, was problematic.
I have come to believe that the developers of Linux are not overly concerned about, either, its success
or its proliferation to the general public and that they, gladly, accept the idea (as some badge of
honor) that Linux will never have the ready utilitarian value and ease of use of Windows. If Linux
users are more "geek" or "nerd" than Windows users and they pride themselves on the distinction of
having an operating system that requires a thorough knowledge of DOS, they have achieved this
distinction, for what it is worth.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-20 15:02
Exactly! You have put it a bit more eloquently than I have done in a post I sent out earlier.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-20 16:11
Just as well. I decided to clone my 2TB disc to a 4TB SSD. I succeeded without any significant
issues and with the help of a friend of mine who is a guru and works on these things daily.
I call him Merlin!
I had to upgrade the BIOS and enable a couple of items and I got everything in order.
HW works as it did before.
I formatted the 2TB HDD and now its available as a secondary/ back up drive.
The last issue I need to sort out is the following: I bought 2 x 7-keys mini keypads
(https://www.ebay.com/itm/115469044273). They connect via USB cable to my 16 port USB 3.0 hub.
I program one and the other gets programmed in the same way. I cannot get them to function
independently. 3 Identical keyboards (Beringer UMX-61) and the pedal board are assigned to a
different MIDI channel hence are recognised as 4 separate units; 4 "swell" pedals function
independently as they are each plugged into a different keyboard & the pedal board hence output
through the corresponding MIDI channels. But how can one do the same for these 2 keypads so
that I can program each key separately to have a total of 14 pistons?
I am still waiting for the manual and software for these keypads. As often the case, the
leaflets that come with products made in China offer little solace. The 2 QR codes that are
supposed to go directly to the website to access them lead to a blank page! I hope these
provide the answer to my question. But if anyone has done this before, I am all eyes and ears!
Mark
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From steve on 2022-08-20 16:08
Hello all.
I have used Linux Mint for over 14 years and have been perfectly happy. I am NOT a computer
nerd or expert but many of my friends are and they will not use Windows on their personal
computers, so what does that say about Windows but, they all make lots and lot of money out
of Windows when people need help. One friend openly admits he has just bought an £2,000,000
house on the back of Windows 10 and now 11!
If you don't want to see what Linux is installing press F4. If you want to see what Windows
installs on your computer then you can and you will see the same sort of thing as Linux
only Windows will not tell you if something has failed to load!
Why do I use Linux, it is reliable, private, I do not have to slow my computer down with
antivirus programs, I do not have to sign up to Microsoft to use my computer, I can click
one icon and get to tens of thousands of application all of which are free (If you like an
application you use you can send the writer of the application a donation), my computer
never crashed when doing an update and I have more freedom of choice.
My wife works for a multi national company and her company laptop is Windows and she hates it
so, for the most part she works on her Linux laptop.
7 weeks ago I gave an 83 years old friend a Linux installation disk, she was up and running
in 30mins and thinks the program is "The best thing she have ever had."
Maybe many of you should read the contract and privacy statement you agree to when you start
Windows.
Steve.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-21 11:37
Dr. Mark, first, in relation to your duplicate, mini keypad; I believe the two keypads
should be identified, individually(#1) (#2), particularly, if they are control devices
(couplers or stop combinations) recognized by jOrgan, even though they have the same names.
Windows USB should identify them by the same name, but do the same (#1) (#2). Try
disconnecting both, then, connect one and program it. Then, connect the other and program
it, separately, if that is possible and the second one is not, automatically, assigned the
same programming as the first. When the software comes, try installing it with two
separate instances, giving the first installation a different folder name than the second
instance, again, connecting the mini keypads, separately. This may work, but you will have
to see.
About 6 weeks ago, I ordered a new 256 GB SSD for my organ computer and attempted to use
cloning software to transfer the contents of the HDD to the SSD. It did not work and
Windows 10 had to be reinstalled on the new SSD. I used a backup installation disk that I
had made in 2015 when Windows 10, first, came out and, while that was successful, Windows,
automatically, downloaded and installed a new build of Windows 10 with the product key that
I had used from the original installation disk. Everything works just fine.
I have, always, been intrigued by Linux and there are aspects of it that are the reason why.
It is simply that, experientially, Linux is not as user-friendly, in my opinion. The fact
that an elderly woman was able to install Linux and get it up and running and doing what she
needs, is great. I think that is pretty remarkable because I know an awful lot of senior
citizens who resist the digital age and prefer not to have anything to do with computers at
all. I don't blame them. I think the complexities of cyber security and the possibilities
of scams and ID theft are so frightening—in comparison to the minimal, personal security risks
people incurred 50 years ago—that their rejection of the entire computer age is perfectly
understandable.
With the current problems in the world, the ideal of instantaneous communications, somehow
facilitating their resolution, seems to be a useless capability. But, perhaps, this is more
related to human attitudes than to technological usage.
I try to, always, remember that Virtual Pipe Organ software, like the Hammond and Allen Organs,
exists because the common man could not (and can not) afford a real, pipe organ.
John Beach
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From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-21 12:39
Hi John B,
I shall definitely try what you have recommended. I did not get the software yet. I did not yet
try programming them with jOrgan and neither GrandOrgue. I tried only one HW sample-set as I did
not have the time to try anything else.
Re: cloning. I used Macrium and it worked like a breeze. It did take a few hours to complete
(about 6 hours I think for 2 TB).
Regarding digital organ vs pipes..... most of us neither have the space for anything of the sort
even if we got an entire pipe organ free of charge! I am made to understand that in the UK several
organs are being removed and literally thrown out of churches as priests/pastors seem to prefer
"bands" and hate organs with a passion. More are left to rot away... I how bad the situation is first hand. So for those with some extra space in the
bedroom or attic.... there is hope..... 😂 Maintenance cost for real pipe organs would always be
an issue; only HW carries that burden in the digital world.... 😂😂😂
Mark MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
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Linux recommended Distribution?
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-21 05:50 (in Windows vs others) Mickey Sadler wrote:”A good description of the Linux file structure can be ound at
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/linux-file-hierarchy-structure/ . … “
Thank you for this Mickey...
...I will study the text.
I am running Windows 7 thru 11pro, All OS X 12 and 13 on real Mac computers and also real
standalone Windows installs on Mac. (I support all of these.) RPi 3B+ and soon to add RPi 4
when I feel I have the 3B+ running jOrgan well. I have 2 stereo pairs coming out of a USB
SoundBlaster via Qsynth and Jack. I would like to have 3 stereo pairs as the sound card is
5.1 discreet. I am working on that.
I have a Mac Mini 5,1 that is an i5 with 16gb ram that I am contemplating turning into a
Linux machine. I know there are lots of folks that have done that.
I would like to have recommendations from anyone on what Linux Distribution that seems good
for Audio/Multi-media applications. Of course my primary interest will be jOrgan with mult-
channel sound.
Thanks & Cheers
Marc-Paul
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jOrgan on Ubuntu Studio 22
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-21 14:50
Ok… here we go.
So jOrgan won’t install. Ubuntu Studio 22. Downloaded Java 8. No joy. So I found a video
that said… do this on command line and here are the results.
sudo apt install openjdk-11-jdk
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
You might want to run 'apt --fix-broken install' to correct these.
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
jorgan : Depends: default-jre but it is not going to be installed
Depends: libfluidsynth1 but it is not installable
openjdk-11-jdk : Depends: openjdk-11-jre (= 11.0.16+8-0ubuntu1~22.04) but it is not going
to be installed
Depends: openjdk-11-jdk-headless (= 11.0.16+8-0ubuntu1~22.04) but it is not going to be
installed
Recommends: libxt-dev but it is not going to be installed
Unmet dependencies. Try 'apt --fix-broken install' with no packages (or specify a solution).
There are so many problems here that I don’t even know where to begin. Does jOrgan even work
in Ubuntu?
I need solutions so I can write a tutorial that actually works. Please point me in the
right direction.
Thanks
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From steve on 2022-08-21 15:59
Run apt --fix-broken install or apt get update to make sure Ubuntu is up to date.
To install Fluidsyth run the Program Manager from the Ubuntu menu (Click icon far left of menu
bar) Once the Program Manager is running, in the search (Top right) type Fluid and a list of
all programs with the word Fluid will appear, there you will see Fluidsynth, double click,
click install, put in your password, Program Manager may tell you extra programs (Dependences)
need to be installed, Click OK and is a few second you will have fluidsynth. Now download the
jOrgan.deb file from Sorce Forge, open your Download folder, double click jOrgan and Ubuntu
should install it.
Hope this helps.
Take a look at the program Manager so you know what programs are available for you to download.
Steve
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From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-21 23:31
jOrgan was installed… it just wouldn’t run. So I installed Java 11 from updates and it
UNINSTALLED jOrgan! So I downloaded Version 4 and I’m back to the “Error: Cannot satisfy
dependencies”
I get the feeling it’s looking for Fluidsynth 1 also. The system already has Fludisynth 2…
Qsynth works perfectly and so does Jack.
And people say Windows is odd.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-22 03:45
This install of Ubuntu Studio 22 is on an Intel/Mac i5 with a SSD.
I installed a working copy of jOrgan 4 from the RPi. It starts and I can load a disposition.
I placed the files in Public.
I am working on getting virtual midi cables with a2jmidid so I can communicate midi with Qsynth
which is using Fluidsynth 2.
As a test I tried jOrgan from Mac to no avail.
Cheers
Marc-Paul MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
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MIDI devices and mini KeyPads vs different Organ software
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-22 10:28
I have jOrgan v3.21 installed with the old FS 1.1.6. I discovered I did not have Java
installed so I installed it.
I could not figure out how to open a disposition on two monitors although I customised
for Display0 and Display1.
Also jOrgan only sees my pedalboard and one of 3 UMX61 keyboards. So I could not assign
the 2 other keyboards!
There was no joy in trying to get even one key of the 2 mini keypads recognized.
Disposition I tried was the Aeolin-Skinner of Paul Stratman.
I had similar issues with GrandOrgue though it did sense all the keyboards unlike jOrgan.
Keypads aren't sensed at all.
Least trouble was with HW4 which senses all the keyboards and the mini keypads but does
not distinguish between the two keypads even when I disconnected one and programmed the
other. When plugged in the other mini keypad reacted like the one programmed (losing its
own settings).
I don't know what to make of these observations!
Apologies for having to rope in the rival software but it was necessary in the circumstances.
Mark
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From JohnR on 2022-08-22 12:11
Hi Mark,
Your problem with MIDI devices having the same name is addressed here:
https://jorgan.info/base/e/Enumerate.html
Best wishes,
JohnR
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From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-22 18:13
Thanks John.
Very helpful (both you and Rick Whatson)
Mark
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From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-22 19:03
The checking of the two MIDI boxes in configuration of jOrgan helped to show up all the
MIDI keyboards. Pity these are not checked by default as should be also the case for Executors!
The USB mini keypad issue remains unsolved and I cannot configure the combination pistons.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-22 20:08
Mark,
Do those mini keypads claim to produce MIDI messages? I suspect that they don't.
It is worth treating them as keys on your computer keyboard, which can be set to activate stops
or pistons. Go into Construct Mode, select a piston, look at its Properties View, click at far
right of its "shortcut" line, and an arrow will appear. Press one of the keypad switches. Nothing
will appear, I have found. Instead click on one of the other pistons in the Elements List, then
go back and click the one you tried to set. You should find an indication now showing.
It's worth a try!
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-08-22 20:33
Dr. Mark Bugeja MD, wrote:
The checking of the two MIDI boxes in configuration of jOrgan helped to show up all the MIDI
keyboards. Pity these are not checked by default as should be also the case for Executors!
I agree, the MIDI numbering should be ticked by default. I have asked for this before, but
nothing ever happens to update the Windows installer.
There are other aspects to the Windows install that should also be updated.
Unfortunately from a Windows point of view, the jOrgan install package is stuck back at XP.
I don't know what is involved with creating or editing a Windows installer package, but
jOrgan could greatly benefit from a installer package update.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-22 20:58
JohnR wrote:"Do those mini keypads claim to produce MIDI messages? I suspect that they don't.
It is worth treating them as keys on your computer keyboard"
On MIDI-OX nothing registers so as you say they don't output MIDI messages.
I'll try what you say. I hope I am understanding the procedure.
At the moment I am "at work" from home and can only do so much between calls I am receiving. There
is a continuous output of MIDI from one of my keyboards. Something playing up there and I need to
address that too. MIDI-OX shows it as a pitch bend or something to that effect. Usually it is
because I have tightened the boards too tight on the wooden supports of my home made console
(I had ripped the UMX keyboards aparts and installed everything on wood eliminating the plastic
casing altogether.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-22 22:05
JohnR., thanks for the link to the Enumerate.html and thanks to Rick Whatson for a very clear
and concise description of how the connections and recognition of USB devices is done.
My explanation was not as clear as it should have been.
I was interested to note that Rick has 3 of the masterkey 61 USB keyboards. I have one of those
for which I constructed an elevated stand to support the keyboard as a third manual on my
vintage, midified, Allen TC-3 organ. As long as the keyboard switch is turned "on," before
the computer boots up, once the jOrgan disposition is set up, properly, it will load without
the necessity to re-assign each time the disposition is used.
Unfortunately, Acorn Instruments (masterkey 25, 49,61) is no longer in business, apparently,
having been taken over by Nektar. I purchased two of those and midified an old Hammond organ
25-note pedalboard for a church, VPO, using jOrgan. I am trying to decide how to purchase or
construct a wooden stand or table with folding legs that will fit the width of the pedalboard,
quite precisely, and hold the two keyboards mounted appropriately, with music stand, yet,
permit easy removal and storage of this VPO when the church platform is used for events
requiring the full, 60-foot width, such as Christmas programs, etc.
John Beach
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From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-22 23:08
I have this software called SharpKeys that can reassign keys to perform a different function.
I used it to assign ALT_GR the function of CTRL which seized to function on my laptop.
Now I wonder whether I can specifically alter the 7 keys of one Mini keypad and not the other
or the main keyboard I use to type.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2022-08-23 00:44
Some may remember that we had quite a long discussion, some years ago, about the Customizer
and Configuration windows in jOrgan. I think we, all, generally, agreed that, since each
individual-user's system was unique with respect to its installed, audio/soundcard hardware,
once customized (check "Ignore") and configured, there was no need for a separate Customizer
Module. That is, jOrgan's Customizer is not a File> menu item, without a Disposition being
loaded. Customizer is a disposition-dependent element. jOrgan will load the most recently
used disposition and it is ready to play. It is only on new dispositions that Customization
has to be done.
So, correct me if I am wrong, but, apparently, Configuration is a jOrgan "shell" element
(locale check "use default," check or uncheck disposition ) MIDI-Merger Input Devices (checked,
permanent until unchecked) , whereas, Customization is a Disposition-proprietary "subset,"
conceptually and functionally. These hierarchical structures are interesting. But it is
difficult to understand how the wave file is the necessary, rudimentary-actuator element on
which all the other parts of audio hardware and software, both, act, and are dependent.
I think this explains the problem we are having with reverb in Fluidsynth, however. This is
unique to electronics and that is why it is not a problem in the natural environment of real
pipe organs.
Interesting stuff!
John Beach MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
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Posts of Reply's do not get to List
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-25 03:56
... a post that I sent yesterday… did not show up. I unsubscribed and then re-subscribed
and got a confirmation. But still no joy on reply’s.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-08-25 09:20
On 2022-08-25 03:56, Marc-Paul wrote:
"This is a post that I sent yesterday… it did not show up. I
unsubscribed and then re-subscribed and got a confirmation. But still
no joy on reply's."
Hi Marc-Paul,
Occasionally when I go to reply to a post, I find that the only email address that appears in the
"To" window is that of the sender of that post. I will then return to the post in my Inbox and click
on "Details" to check what's there. Whatever I find, the remedy is to copy the Mailing List email
address and make sure that I put it into the "To" window of my Reply.
One has to be observant in these things. Otherwise one's reply will go only to the sender of the post.
Best wishes,
John
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-25 11:22
Probably you sent your message as a "reply" rather than as "reply all".
Mark MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
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Windows 11 issues
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-25 04:10
I have been running 32 & 64bit versions of jOrgan side by side for some time… simply
specifying which Java to use on the command line. I have more than one computer running
Windows 11… one is testing Beta’s of Win11.
That particular computer will open jOrgan… but I can’t do anything in it… it crashes.
Here is the odd part… if I go to a disposition file and right click and select the
correct version of jOrgan… it opens fine.
I uninstalled jOrgan and Java and started over… the same result.
Is there a config file somewhere that needs to be deleted… or do we have an upcoming
problem.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
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Dr. Mark's Balzan on the RPi 3B+ (32bit)
From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-28 14:30
I wanted to use Dr. Mark Bugeja’s incredibly well crafted… and beautiful sounding Balzan
disposition on the RPi 3B+ with Fluidsynth2/Qsynth. I have had success with the small
American Classic disposition by Paul Stratman.
An outline of the procedure would be:
Remove Fluidsynth in disposition noting first how many instances are used.
Replace with Generic Sound and reference Sound Elements.
Use Virtual Midi Cables to connect jOrgan to Qsynth.
Use Jack Audio Connection Kit to patch virtual Midi to Qsynth from jOrgan.
Use Jack Audio to connect sound card.
Play Organ.
***************
I can give more detail in setup if it seem necessary… but I thought I would let anyone
that was interested try this first.
I found it necessary to work backwards. Get Jack to run first with NO midi driver. Set
sound card with 2 channels output. Open Graph.
Set virtual Midi cables with “a2jmidid” on the command line. You will see Red instances
appear in Jack Graph. These are the one’s you will use to connect to Qsynth midi.
Open Qsynth and set Midi and Audio to Jack. Load Soundfont. Set sample rate etc. to the
usual settings. Turn on Output peak level meters in Options. Set midi channels in
multiples of 16 to number of instances noticed in Fluidsynth.
Go back to Jack Graph and connect the appropriate Red instance of Virtual Midi cable to
Qsynth Red Midi in. (drag and drop)
Start or Re-start jOrgan and set the output of Generic sound to the Virtual Midi Cable.
Remove errors by setting midi outputs to the Virtual Midi Cable except your Keyboard Input.
When you press keys on the keyboard you should see a green flicker on Qsynth. If you have
everything correct… you will see audio from the meters in Qsynth… and hear audio.
To hear such a beautiful pipe sound as this disposition is truly a delight.
Thank-you Dr. Mark.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-28 16:21
Thank you. Although I take sole credit for the recording of this instrument, I give all the
rest of the credit to the late Panos Ghekas who worked on it himself (processing of the raw
audio into files I could work upon myself) as well as his guidance on how to carry out what
I had to do with files to create the sampleset as it is.
Graphics, fancy as they may look, are my work. At the time I was more into capturing as many
elements of both the organ as well as the church itself to create the dials etc. It was all
new to me and I was as excited creating these as with the wav files themselves..... like a
child unwrapping his Christmas presents! It was a thrill generating the realism of movement
from pairs of artwork for each element involved, mindful of how things appear to us in 3-D in
real life and applying them to 2-D images on a computer screen. It was fun throughout. I would
do things a little less flashy had I to revisit the sample-set but I'd like to retain it the
way Panos and I created it then for it sure brings back a lot of memories and nostalgia.
Whilst Panos went to meet the Lord 7 years ago (anniversary due next month, RIP), his heart
still beats in this instrument with every note played wherever in the world by whoever has got
the set. To date, I have distributed almost 1600 copies individually and personally to people
in 70 countries. Out of these just under 300 copies are for jOrgan.
Balzan organ has made history as being the very first digital replica of a historic instrument
in our tiny Island of Malta. I know no one who has done any such work ever. My aim at bringing
Malta onto the map of virtual instruments has truly succeeded with 3 other instruments added
since (Panos had started work on the second organ, that in Fontana, Gozo the sister island when
he fell suddenly ill and passed away).
I do hope that more people will enjoy these instruments. With a lot of help from several people
around the world, it has been possible to extend our humble treasures and share them with the
rest of the world. Now that I shall be retiring from my medical practice, I hope I can devote
more time to recording a variety of different, larger and smaller historic organs that are
spread around the two islands. The limiting factor is expert voluntary help with sound
processing and creation of sf2 and HW packages. Volunteers have become rather scarce with
leaders in these fields having withdrawn their services. The few that remain are at times very
difficult to work with! But I shall try at least a couple more whilst my health allows. There
are physical difficulties to surmount like climbing long, narrow, winding, spiral stairs to get
to the organs, the time allowed, permissions to access and record organs, carrying food, snacks
and coffee and medication that has to be kept cool (I am a diabetic...), carrying a bag laden
with the hardware needed as well as food are tiring... and what goes up has to come back down
(and what goes in has to come out at some point...... I'm sure you know what I mean..... usually
there are no toilets in choir lofts....). So there is a hell of a lot more than meets the eye....
Have fun and spare at thought at what went through to help bring that about.....
Mark MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Midi Soundbank preset-correlation and mapping
From John Beach on 2022-08-27 00:58
I happened upon the MIDI 2.0 announcement of August 17,2022
( https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/the-midi-association-announces-midi-2-0-development-tools )
and thought about the problem of non-standardization of soundbank presets (rank/stop names) by
Official Equipment Manufacturers (OEM) and whether this issue had been addressed in the MIDI 2.0
release.
I don't think it has, and so, I put in a search for "soundbank preset-correlation and
mapping, since .mid files, having System Exclusive Program Changes, would prevent playing them
by another type of organ. In the absence of standardization of organ soundbanks or libraries,
some program that, simply, reads the preset names and program change numbers of the different
banks of different organs is necessary to correlate the same stops of the separate organs to
playback using the same organ stops.
(Reconciliation of System Exclusive Elements) One of the returns to my search was the link below,
having to do with the structure of gaming software, and it piqued my interest concerning the
structure of games having an "initialization bank." As I read it, I thought of it as a
configurator/customizer of system hardware, or a .mid file triggering the playback of sounds
in a soundbank (since the GM.dls is used for games) and wondered if games (which I have NEVER
played) are, instantaneously and fluidly, reactionary relative to the interaction of the players,
or if a game is a predetermined/prescribed sequence of events that becomes boring (like the Atari
"Mario" of the 1980s, bouncing on a brick wall, batting objects to the same monotonous,
synthetic tones that must have driven many a mother to distraction) with its repetition.
In the description of "Soundbank, "Because all platforms are different, Wwise allows you to easily
tailor the SoundBanks for each platform and generate the SoundBanks for all platforms simultaneously."
If or since the Fluidsynth 2.0 Reverb has been designed with gamers in mind, I was interested to see
that this Wwise has its own sound engine and correlates audio and motion and deals with the
environmental variables of environmental obstruction and occlusion which are the causal factors of
reverberation.
While I agree with JohnR. that the reverb in Fluidsynth 2.0 is quite good, it is the unrealistic
cycling of of the looped steady-state of the wave file that is, still, very objectionable. If we
could just get that eliminated, it would be perfect. Having read the descriptions of the
abstractions with which this particular program deals, I am convinced that perfection is achievable.
https://www.audiokinetic.com/library/edge/?source=WwiseFundamentalApproach&id=understanding_
soundbanks_understanding_soundbanks
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Proper reverberation defined
From John Beach on 2022-08-30 17:17
The response to a search question "Does reverberation change the amplitude of a sound
wave?" returned the following: "Reverberation effects are frequently used in studios
to enhance the depth of sounds. Reverberation modifies the perceived spectral structure
of a sound but does not change the pitch. Basic aspects that affect a room's
reverberation time comprise the shape and size of the surrounding as well as the
substance used in the building of the room." (room, width and damping).
To the following question, "Does modulation change the pitch of a wave?" "Modulation
in music is a change in pitch, volume or timbre of an acoustic sound source over time.
In particular it is described as a change in the shape of waveforms of the sound waves
which generate ultrasonic waves."
The proper definition of "amplitude modulation" is "Amplitude modulation is a process
by which the wave signal is transmitted by modulating the amplitude of the signal. It
is often called AM and is commonly used in transmitting a piece of information through
a radio carrier wave. Amplitude modulation is mostly used in the form of electronic
communication."
Where Fluidsynth Reverb LEVEL violates the definition of reverberation is in the extent
to which it, audibly, changes the pitch of the sound. Properly, LEVEL should not affect
the unmodulated steady-state of the sound, but decrease the loudness of the sound relative
to its decay over a short period of time in seconds. The construct of an acoustic
environment is perceived to be an extantial constant in terms of its effect on sound.
"Reverberation modifies the perceived spectral structure of a sound but does not change
the pitch. "
Recently, I found a posting by Les Knolls from 2019 in which he stated that he was using
the "Jazz Club" reverb setting in Creative Environmental Audio Xtension, a named type of
reverberation that is not found in the list of reverb choices for the Realtek Onboard Audio
that is available with most PCs. Although he states that he is using it with some
modification (17.7 dB), the default produces an excellent "organ quality" of sound, giving
a closer, fuller "presence" and a grittiness to the sound which is very realistic.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
jOrgan info and jOrgan Wiki not working
From RickW on 2022-09-18 21:02
Has anyone else noticed a problem trying to research jOrgan details?
I am getting the message: this page isn't working. jorgan.info redirected you too many times.
I can't seem to find wiki information either.
Is it just me or my internet connection?
Regards,
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-09-18 22:06
Hi Rick,
I've just got the same. It is possible that Jonathan is in the process of changing the
jorgan.info over to another server. We have had email communication about it. It won't
affect the link at all once he has finished the process.
I wasn't expecting it quite so soon.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-09-18 23:31
Hi all,
Yes that is me as John said I have moved it over to another server and I am trying to
understand why the site isn’t loading. Rest assured nothing has been lost and once it's
all back online John can continue updating the site.
I will keep everyone updated in regards to this.
Regards,
Jonathan Aquilina
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-09-19 02:00
I do not know if this is on topic or related. I can only get jorgan to load on opera;
and i have 5 browsers.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-09-19 02:50
The DNS may not have updated yet in all areas. It will resolve eventually.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Chester Berry on 2022-09-19 03:03
Thanks, Jon, for all your work!
/s/Chester H Berry
Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-09-19 13:22
Good Morning Chester,
Not a problem at all.
On another good note the website is back online, I will need to just get John his FTP details
so he can connect to the server and upload any updates
Regards,
Jonathan Aquilina
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-09-19 14:56
On 2022-09-19 13:22, Jonathan Aquilina via jOrgan-user wrote:
"On another good note the website is back online, I will need to just get John his FTP details
so he can connect to the server and upload any updates"
Jonathan,
That is great news. I have, of course, verified that it is now working on the new server.
What I am especially pleased about, is that you were able to copy all the jorgan.info details
(far more than just the website!) over to the new server, meaning that I don't have several
weeks of uploading it all there myself! :-) :-)
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-09-19 15:31
Hi John,
Being an IT guy no way was I going to have you do all the work. Firstly its not in my nature,
I might be sponsoring the site but i wouldnt do that to the entire jorgan community.
In one way or another I would have come up with a way to copy over everything.
Regards,
Jonathan
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-09-19 16:25
Hi Jonathan
Thank you for what you are doing for the jOrgan community.
Regards
Rick. MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Stepped CC message control of Swell
From RickW on 2022-09-19 10:40
I feel like I have researched this as far as I can and hit a brick wall. I would be happy
to be proven wrong.
I have a console that provides 10x stepped (ON/OFF) MIDI messages for the Swell Shades
position of 2x Swell Chambers.
It would seem to me that I somehow need to "Reference" a series of "Keyer" Elements to a
"Continuous" Element, but the "New References" function doesn't think this is a valid
connection and doesn't offer the ability to make the "Reference".
From what I can see (having tried many options) the "Continuous" Element can only Reference
the "Synchronising" Element.
From my research, the "Synchronising" Element will set one "Continuous" Element to the same
value as another "Continuous" Element. This doesn't achieve the steps I need.
Am I missing something?
Is there a way I can use the "Messages" entries for the "Continuous" Element to read the
stepped on/off messages from this console?
Can jOrgan be modified to allow "References" between "Keyer" Elements and "Continuous" Elements?
Is there some other way to achieve this?
Thank you
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-09-19 10:52
A few more thoughts to the original message.
I feel like I have researched this as far as I can and hit a brick wall. I would be happy
to be proven wrong.
I have a console that provides 10x stepped (ON/OFF) MIDI messages for the Swell Shades position
of 2x Swell Chambers.
It would seem to me that I somehow need to "Reference" a series of "Keyer" Elements to a
"Continuous" Element, but the "New References" function doesn't think this is a valid connection
and doesn't offer the ability to make the "Reference".
From what I can see (having tried many options) the "Continuous" Element can only Reference the
"Synchronising" Element.
From my research, the "Synchronising" Element will set one "Continuous" Element to the same value
as another "Continuous" Element. This doesn't achieve the steps I need.
Am I missing something?
Is there a way I can use the "Messages" entries for the "Continuous" Element to read the stepped
on/off messages from this console?
The "Continuous" Element only offers the "New Message" options of "Change" and "Changed"
It doesn't seem to think that "Activate" "Deactivate" are valid for this Element.
Can jOrgan be modified to allow "References" between "Keyer" Elements and "Continuous" Elements,
or to allow "Activate" "Deactivate" messages on "Continuous" Elements?
Is there some other way to achieve this?
Thank you
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-09-19 14:50
Rick,
I have just simulated a good solution to your need, using my Norden Schnitger disposition.
I had noticed that the pistons could be used to control the Volume settings. This was more
by accident than by design, but the end result is that it has provided you with the answer.
If you create ten special pistons and reference them all to the volume control, you can
activate them by the MIDI messages from the organ console, using the Customizer in the normal
way. You can go into Construct Mode and set a specific Volume value before operating the SET
piston and then the appropriate special piston. This, of course, has to be set up ten times.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-09-19 16:24
Hi John
Thank you for this. I will set it up and test it, but can see how it will work.
In having got to this point, I still wonder how hard it would be to allow some extra
references and messages in the jOrgan structure to give more flexibility between on/off
and continuous functions. The current allowed references and messages assumes very
specific functional application.
I know this means another update for jOrgan, but I have found a real world application.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-09-21 20:57
Hi John
I have run some tests on this, and while it looks promising, it is not quite achieving
the result I need. While it seems so close, the resulting behaviour is not musical.
I am able to achieve 10x steps of Swell opening, but I am not able to achieve any steps
of Swell closing. The Swell stays wide open until it gets a rising step anywhere below
its current position.
I tried creating another 10x "pistons" to "activate" a closing step on the closing swell
signals, but it just doesn't move at all up or down.
I tried with the 10x pistons having "Duration" set to each of the three alternatives
(None, Until Deactivated, Infinite) but this only affects the display of the piston being
pressed (triggered active) or not.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-09-21 21:45
Rick,
I'll have another look at my simulation, and see if I get the behaviour you describe.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-09-22 08:54
On 2022-09-21 20:57, RickW wrote:
"I am able to achieve 10x steps of Swell opening, but I am not able to achieve any steps of
Swell closing. The Swell stays wide open until it gets a rising step anywhere below its
current position.”
I tried creating another 10x "pistons" to "activate" a closing step on the closing swell
signals, but it just doesn't move at all up or down."
Rick,
You haven't given details of what this testing consisted of, so I am not sure what it all
means. But if you created another ten "pistons" to deal with "doors closing", then I think
you are almost there. The question is, in setting this test up, did you go through the
process of assigning volume levels to those extra ten pistons? And were those extra pistons
also referenced to the volume control?
I have just tested this out, using my Norden Schnitger disposition. I went into Construct
mode, brought up the volume control properties, and set the volume value to 1. I then used
the "SET" piston procedure to get the HW piston 5 to register that volume level of 1. I knew
that if I activate (manually) HW piston 1, the volume level goes to "0". In play mode, I
alternately (manually) activated HW pistons 1 and 5, back and forth. The volume control
certainly moved from fully open to fully closed and then fully open, or vice versa, depending
on which piston I was activating. This is all visible on the screen.
As far as I can see, the challenge is to get those 20 special pistons reacting in an
identifiable way to the MIDI on/off messages from the swell pedal. Obviously the Customizer
plays a part in that. If you draw a blank there, you may have to resort to modifying the
entries in the disposition, based on a knowledge of what the on/off messages are. Presumably
that is precisely what the Customizer does whenever, for example, one wants to get the stops
to respond to particular MIDI messages.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Setting stops with MIDI
From Jan Hartmann on 2022-09-29 08:15
Hi,
I'm playing MIDI-files from Musescore to Jorgan via LoopMidi, so I can follow the music
while listening to it. Notes are getting through fine, but I am unable to set stops. Some
dispositions come with MIDI files that set stops, but when I import these into Musescore,
stop settings seem to be lost.
I am able to record stop settings in the Jorgan recorder and export them to a MIDI file.
Is it possible to add this file at the front of an external MIDI file (e.g. from
classicalarchives.com) in Musescore, and play it with the right registration that way?
If not, are programs like Finale or Sibelius an option? And if everything else fails,
could this MIDI file be transferred to Jorgan by way of a separate MIDI transport program,
like MIDI-OX?
Is there a description how stops respond to MIDI Messages? I would prefer not to have to
write them out in detail, but to set them on the Jorgan console and record that.
Regards, Jan
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-09-29 13:45
Hi Jan
I have done a fair bit of work in this area with a slightly different focus.
My aim has been to have jOrgan fully interpret MIDI files created on a Johannus MIDI Sequencer
Recorder/Player connected to a real pipe organ with a Z-Tronics Relay, Capture action and MIDI
Interface.
As you have already discovered, the MIDI File Player embedded in jOrgan is very specifically
designed so that it replays a recorded jOrgan performance in every detail, but it will only
ever correctly replay in jOrgan in the exact jOrgan disposition.
I do believe it is possible to "see" the "Console Messages" if you analise the MIDI file in
an external editor, but I don't think there would be any way that information would be "read"
by jOrgan while being fed from an external MIDI player. Likewise, I don't believe there is any
way to intercept the jOrgan MIDI Player MIDI stream to be viewed by external software.
I have achieved my aim by adding MIDI Message triggers to every jOrgan Console Tab and
Function to match the messages being recorded in the real pipe organ system.
There is no reason why you couldn't achieve what you want to do, but it will mean you will
need to go into jOrgan "Construct" mode and add a "Connector" Element to connect to your
virtual MIDI cable, and add "Activate" and "Deactivate" messages to every Stop (in every
disposition you might want to use). It is achievable, but not without a considerable amount
of work.
I can go into more detail if you want to go down this path.
Regards,
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnB on 2022-09-29 17:34
Jan, I use, essentially, the same technique as you, playing .mid files in a separate midi
sequencer program, inputting to jOrgan via Loopbe virtual midi cable. I activate the jOrgan
record function, and activate the stops to be used, then, start the playback of the .mid
file in the external midi sequencer program.
Initially, jOrgan had a dedicated channel/track for the metadata (jOrgan-proprietary).
However, this is no longer visible in the jOrgan-proprietary .mid file which is recorded by
the jOrgan recorder. I believe it was, originally, channel 16. What is, also, interesting
is the fact that, in analyzing the Event List of the jOrgan-proprietary .mid file in the
external midi sequencer program, NO program changes (stop changes or metadata) will be
listed or shown. All that is apparent are the Note-On/Note-Off messages. So, how the
metadata (stop changes, couplers, tremolo, expression, etc.) are embedded by jOrgan is a
secret, known only to Sven. However, on playing back the jOrgan .mid file in the jOrgan
recorder, all the appropriate metadata effectuates all the changes that are made, manually.
To record a jOrgan disposition-proprietary .mid file in the method we are using, inputting
from an external midi sequencer program, making all the appropriate stop changes during
live simultaneous play/record of a .mid file requires a thorough review of the .mid file,
the times or measures at which stop changes want to be made, etc. It can be done and I did
it with the .mid file of the "Titanic" that Al Schroer made several years ago, adapting all
the stop changes to a disposition that I had created and have used for many years, now.
Setting the pistons for stop combinations is the best method to achieve rapid changes of
stops in mid-play of a .mid file. You have to be able to view, both, the jOrgan console
and the midi-sequencer, track windows, at the same time, in order to be able to make the
rapid changes of stops, couplers or effects such as tremolo or expression.
Actually, you can set the expression messages which are embedded in the .mid file by the
creator of it, to be intercepted by jOrgan with the following messages for the Expression of
the Division. Make sure that the "Change" (last entry) has the correct Division Channel
number after the "equal" (177=Great in my disposition). Assuming that the Swell is Channel 1
and that is the 176, the other divisions are given ascending numbers (177,178,179, etc.) in
the order in which they were created. Great-177, Pedal-178, Choir=179, etc. Then, the
expression (volume changes can be intercepted, also) changes will be made automatically,
if they are embedded in the original .mid file being played to input to jOrgan recorder.
Great (Enclosed) Engaging set 176 set 11 set value | mult 0.5 | add 0.5 | mult volume 127
Great (Enclosed) Engaging set 176 set 99 set 120
Great (Enclosed) Engaging set 176 set 98 set 8
Great (Enclosed) Engaging set 176 set 6 set value | mult 0.33 | add 0.66 | mult volume 80
Great (Enclosed) Change equal 177 equal 11 div 127 | get value
I hope this helps.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jan Hartmann on 2022-10-05 04:09
Thanks, Rick and John! Looks very complex to me. Couldn't Sven describe the format of
his MIDI stop changes? I guess they are some sort of MIDI text metadata. I saw something
like that in a description for using Musescore with Hauptwerk and GrandOrgue (which I
do not really understand):
https://musescore.org/en/node/270844#Assigning_and_changing_stops_in_your_score_(SDRC)
In the meantime, I'll record the initial stops for a MIDI organ piece with the Jorgan
recorder, and play that small MIDI file within the Jorgan recorder, and after that the
original one from Musescore. It would be nice if that was also possible for stop changes
during the Musescore playback, but I can't see how to do that.
Cheers, Jan
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-10-18 10:24
I have been running a lot of MIDI files from an external sequencer in recent weeks,
a strange thing I am finding almost every time I open my jOrgan disposition, is that
my virtual MIDI connection LoopMIDI changes "Enumerate" MIDI device number in jOrgan,
so jOrgan dumps the Customizer MIDI Input device. So every time I open my jOrgan
disposition, I need to check the first couple of pages for MIDI input settings for
each division and console controls.
Just mildly annoying. I wonder why this is happening? I'm not disconnecting or
connecting any extra or different MIDI devices.
I thought "Enumerate" was intended to eliminate this possibility.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-10-24 06:27
On 2022-10-18 10:24, greenfox4075@gmail.com wrote: "I have been running a lot of MIDI files
from an external sequencer in recent weeks, a strange thing I am finding almost every time
I open my jOrgan disposition ... "
Hi Rick,
You say, "almost every time". Does this mean that sometimes it works O.K.?
This suggests to me a poor USB contact rather than a software corruption issue.
Would the use of MIDI-Ox identify whether the sequencer is sending inconsistent identification?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Howard A. Ashley on 2022-10-24 11:19
Please let me know if this gets through. I have been on this list for years but never know
if I'm being heard or not. Mostly I just lurk. But this particular topic resonates. There
is a software sequencer (free!) that is designed to capture all the stop changes and
expression pedal changes of an organ performance. Almost any organ but especially Hauptwerk
organs. Here is a link: https://www.organassist.com/ . Totally a game changer. I need it
because my legacy Rodgers 751 has no built in sequencer. I thought Hauptwerk had a
satisfactory one. This thread makes me think otherwise? The fact that the Organ Assist
software comes with so many Hauptwerk Organs installed makes me think it is necessary. If
your particular instrument is not represented you can create it by modifying the profile of
one that is close.
Howard
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Chester Berry on 2022-10-24 11:24
Howard A. Ashley wrote: "Please let me know if this gets through."
Received
/s/Chester H Berry, Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-10-24 17:03
Hi John
Thank you for continuing to think about this.
In this instance, I am running jOrgan on my Windows 10 laptop with no MIDI devices connected.
I am not ever connecting external MIDI devices to this computer (though I have in the past).
I am running jOrgan 3.21(64-bit).
I am using either Cakewalk or MIDIBar to play MIDI files using the virtual MIDI cable
loopMIDI with only 1 Port configured in the loopMIDI setup.
I have Cache and Enumerate set active in jOrgan configuration.
In Customizer today I get the MIDI inputs dropdown box showing: jOrgan MIDI Merger #0,
jOrgan MIDI Logger #3, jOrgan Null #4, RTPMIDI #6, loopMIDI Port 1 #7, Real Time Sequencer #12.
As I write this message all my MIDI inputs are showing blank, so I need to change them all
to loopMIDI Port 1 #7.
Last time I opened jOrgan I had to set them all to #6 as that was where loopMIDI Port 1 was
in the enumerated list. If I am remembering correctly, it seems to alternate between #6 and #7.
I save each time in the hope that I won't need to re-enter all 6 fields again next time.
(I have no need for Organ Assist as I have configured jOrgan to read every message and function
provided by the MIDI sequencer on the real organ that my jOrgan disposition emulates in every
detail.)
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-10-24 20:20
Further to my last message
I just rebooted, then checked jOrgan.
My previous input settings were gone, RTP Ethernet MIDI and loopMIDI Port 1 have swapped
from #6 and #7 to #7 and #6.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-10-24 20:55
On 2022-10-24 20:20, RickW wrote:"I just rebooted, then checked jOrgan.
My previous input settings were gone, RTP Ethernet MIDI and loopMIDI Port 1 have swapped
from #6 and #7 to #7 and #6."
Hi Rick,
I can't help wondering whether you are applying the Enumerate function to a situation
for which it was not designed. What happens if you turn the Enumerate off?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-11-03 13:25
Hi John
I think you are correct. Thank you again for going out of your way to think about mine and
others jOrgan problems. It always helps to have someone else to bounce things off of.
I have turned off MIDI Enumerate and jOrgan appears to be remembering the MIDI input Device
selections.
The situation with LoopMIDI and RTPMidi swapping Enumerate allocations may have something
to do with them both being from the same software developer?
In my current jOrgan use scenario, I am not using my 3x identical Acorn USB MIDI keyboards
(which do require Enumerate to be able to function)
So it seems the two different use cases require two different jOrgan setups in the underlying
jOrgan program, not able to be managed by separate dispositions.
Regards
Rick MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Sound modelling article
From John Beach on 2022-11-02 21:32
The article at the link below begins "Imagine the booming chords from a pipe organ
echoing through the cavernous sanctuary of a massive, stone cathedral."
https://news.mit.edu/2022/sound-model-ai-1101?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email
When I read it, I wondered how, specifically, the research might parallel or affect
that of digital reverberation techniques. I admit that I, first, thought of Impulse
Response as being, essentially, the same thing, but they are using it to "model vision."
3D geometry.
Given the effect of objects that baffle, 3D geometric, physical objects' effect on
reverberation, I wonder how it differs from that of the technique used to make an impulse
response file. The interpolation by digital signal processing of the sound wave file
or ensemble of sound waves, shaped or altered, relative to the wave file of the impulse
response, environmental acoustic model, electronically, seems to be a problematic,
artificial and unrealistic product caused by the constraints and nature of electricity.
It is electronic-artificial rather than acoustic-natural in origin, therefore,
fundamentally, different, like the difference between a pipe organ and a Hammond organ.
What do others think?
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-04 23:02
I have two computers one does not work: Help.
Works:
windows 11
I3
jre1.8.0_351
jOrgan v.4
BALMAN_J320_fs
No sound::/*
windows 10
I5
jre1.8.0_351
jOrgan v.4
BALMAN_J320_fs
ERROR Sound font "BALMAIN_HQ.sf2" cannot be loaded. Fluidsynth Sound
Organ and master volume max.
Tried reloading everything several times.
Thank you,;
ƒg
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-11-04 23:10
Hi,
copy the sf2 file from "works" to "no sound::/*", maybe the file is corrupted on the latter.
Regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-05 00:59
Sven:
Same, note, I have downloaded the 3 parts several times also.
Thank you, ƒg
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Pascal Collet on 2022-11-05 02:19
Hello, Is this the same size of memory (RAM) on both computers ?
Regards
Pascal
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-05 04:04
yes
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-11-05 06:44
Freeman,
Can you send me both .disposition files as attachments in an email? Please make it clear which
one is from the Windows 11, and which from the Windows 10. Make sure that the last time you used
them, you SAVED them when closing them down.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-11-05 12:06
I have had a friend mention yesterday about his jOrgan with Christie disposition stop making
sound after a Java update. Showing Fluidsynth error.
I sent him suggestions, but haven't yet heard back on any results.
I am currently running jOrgan v3.20 (64 bit). Java has recently updated to 8 351. My system is
working fine.
It will be interesting to pin down the problem.
32 bit possibly?
The more reports we get should help to narrow it down.
Regards
Rick.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-11-05 15:41
I am running jOrgan 321B3 in both 32 and 64bit on the same computer on Java 8.321 (build 1.8.0_321-b07)
without difficulty. I downloaded the Balmain disposition and installed it without difficulty in both
32 and 64bit. Fluidsynth works fine.
My system will not update Java any further... odd I think.
This is a Windows 11pro Ryzen based system.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-11-19 16:51
Hi all,
We have finally discovered the reason for Freeman's jOrgan problems. The answer was staring us
in the face in his very first post. A careful look at the "f" in his signature differs slightly
from the "f" elsewhere in his post. It uses an unusual character. That character also forms part
of his username in his Windows 10 computer. Windows had no problem with it, but jOrgan did, when
trying to load the soundfont file into Fluidsynth.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-11-20 02:40
Hi JohnR...
...so to be sure I understand. The ASCII character was
of a different reference number... is that correct?
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-20 03:54
I used ƒ (Alt+159) for my f. Linux was used to create the sound font so having the ƒ in the path
of the sound font file it could not be reached. (John may be able to explain this better)
Taking the folder that contained ƒ out of the path of the disposition folder containing the sound font
file solved the problem.
ƒg
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-11-20 05:07
Thanks...
...that's what I thought... I just wanted to be clear. Alt+159 sets the character.
This is important because I run PC, Mac and Raspberry side by side.
Cheers
Marc-Paul MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-21 06:20
I am new to jOrgan and will probably have many questions. I am buying hardware. I have a
Raspberry Pi 4. I would like to use two touch screen monitors to divide the stops and
balance the appearance. In checking eBay and youtube it looks like the best way to do
this is with two HDMI touch monitors which may require a USB input for the touch. And
it looks like the touch function has to be calibrated to what is showing on the screen.
This is all I know now and do not know if it works or even if it works with jOrgan.
The screen size would be 7 or 10 in. If anyone has experience with this, it would be
greatly appreciating your help:
1] Brand would you recommend?
2] Screen size?
3] Screen resolution?
4] With all the USB connections would I need a powered USB hub or will power through Raspberry Pi be 0k?
5] At this time, not looking for help setting up the second monitor. For now, just getting jOrgan running,
Thank you. Ƒg
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-11-27 16:41
On 2022-11-21 06:20, Freeman Gilmore wrote: "I am new to jOrgan and will probably have many
questions. I am buying hardware. I have a Raspberry Pi 4. I would like to use two touch
screen monitors to divide the stops and balance the appearance."
Freeman,
The lack of response indicates not much use of the RPi. You already know of my use of two
official RPi 7" touchscreens with my home console. These are with two RPi 3B+'s, a model which
RPi are not continuing to release. So you have to use the RPi 4B or later. The RPi 4B gets
very hot and this needs a suitable heatsink case or a case with fan. Fortunately jOrgan does
not make it run very hot, as it does not make high demands of the CPU, but it still needs to
be kept in mind.
With my 7" screens I use the Pimoroni screen case to give extra physical protection. My RPi
Tutorial describes it in a lot of detail. This touchscreen has cables connecting directly to
the RPi board, and so no use is made of the USB ports. Note that this touchscreen makes no
provision for extra cooling, apart from ventilation.
I have found that this set-up totally meets my needs. I can fit 56 stops plus some other
controls, distributed across the two screens. No more than that, if the stops are to be
readable from the playing position. The two computers talk to each other using jOrgan's LAN
provision. It is not very difficult to modify existing jOrgan dispositions to fit this
touchscreen arrangement.
You already know about the website of my preferred RPi supplier here in NSW, called Core
Electronics. They are a serious supplier very committed to the RPi, and they seem to be
currently out of stock of the RPi 4B, which has quite bad implications for their financial
viability at the moment.
That website is a great resource for getting a feel for the RPi and its accessories. They and
other suppliers do offer some 10" touchscreens, but I have looked at some reviews of them, and
not one of those reviews is totally glowing. However, there is also an 8.9" touchscreen which
looks promising, with some excellent guidance material. The one review is very positive.
Unfortunately it is twice the price of the 7" touchscreen. Here is a link to that screen,
followed by a link to the Guide:
https://core-electronics.com.au/8-9-1920x1200-ips-touch-display.html
https://core-electronics.com.au/guides/raspberry-pi/dfrobot-8.9-ips-display/
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-27 19:09
John:
I am looking at two of these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255774202371?hash=item3b8d549a03:g:WbMAAOSw~m1i1QSX&amdata=
enc%3AAQAHAAAA8ALB5c4nkt%2BlHrCaIPb1CZwKtdoa72GxZB%2Fp4geJmYYxrg9SHxqmLGeV17q5xvQupu
5BoHKw0CG7QD2GTHPICZEJbWngRAP3oQxe%2F5v6%2Fh7nzvmGc3PsoOHhV0C7ai%2BIqn126crBN91Nt4xH
sEWv%2BQ%2FoZqFnYE7vCKPyyKq7gYbSluD%2BF0Rpw7JNJtaEPr17tmZMlX5t7mqYrGxFKqRAQtzMQo329X
VIG54ozAPrbJzuVZFHeH2Nm0D0LGZZdNynhKZ8eonaiS0M7cjivCZvqJ49PqUEFexO%2BZEBnrosEm7vQKkh
MD3oNu5PvcPl8jbMyA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBM6sTZ_pZh
About $140 of your money. HDMI video but touch goes in on USB. No external circuitry
and the cable are not plugged in at the edge. I know nothing more about them except what
is in the above URL. They do make 7" Plug and play on the pi, I do not know about the
second monster but, I have been told that the pic can be spread across both. The skin
would have to be reworked. The one you sent is much better. Not sold on Amazon or ebay.
I want to keep the cost down for now. You have told me about the store and I went there before.
I have one cheap keyboard to start. Used RBp 4 with a large heat sink that covers the
top of the whole pi 4 4GB and a sound card that I showed you. I have a pedalboard from a
Baldwin or a Hammond, they would have MIDI added.
I am in volume 2 of Bill Skees book and wanted to try some of what he has there. I get a sound
error, probably due to updates:
ERROR Device "Java Sound Synthesizer" is not available. Sound
Is there an easy fix? No need to spend a lot of time on it.
Thank you, ƒg
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-11-27 20:38
Freeman,
The touchscreen you have in mind looks good, but I am no expert in such things. The spec. says
that it is "unbranded", which suggests that if you want a second one in the future, you may have
trouble getting an identical one. Unfortunately, if there are no reviews (and even if there are
some!), there is often a risk involved in making the purchase.
Your question about a sound error suggests to me that you are trying to use the "Example"
disposition in the jOrgan folder. It does not surprise me if it no longer gives sound. Java has
certainly moved on since that disposition was created.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-12-01 16:04
John:
I ordered 2, see how it goes.
Is your Schnitger pipe organ in Norden disposition one of the shared ones?
Thank you, ƒg
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-12-02 07:29
John:
I found the Schnitger pipe organ, did not know you made the disposition.
Thank you ƒg MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
From Andrew Wos on 2022-12-07 02:32
Hello,
I finally have a little extra time on my hands and wanted to try to setup a 'good' jorgan
computer again. I am starting with a fresh win10 pro laptop and Behringer Uphoria UM2 USB
audio interface. I installed Java 8 351 64 bit and then jOrgan 3.21.1. I got sound using
the dsound driver. I want to do more with the sound routing however. I have a license for
Cantabile, a VST host and Reverberate LE. It looks like I would use a backend on jOrgan that
supports ASIO / Jack. Then I could use Jack to route to Cantabile. Add revert with
Reverberate LE and then route out to the sound card. I can't get the backends that support
ASIO / Jack to work. I select them but then have no sound items at all in the fluidsynth
object audio device drop down.
Is there a known working config as far as Java version, jorgan version, ASIO4ALL version,
Jack IO version that should do what I want? I can try loading WIn7 on the laptop if that is
more compatible but not sure if all the hardware drivers exist for WIn7.
Thanks in advance!
Andy
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-12-07 08:58
On 2022-12-07 02:32, Andrew Wos wrote: "I can't get the backends that support ASIO / Jack
to work. I select them but then have no sound items at all in the fluidsynth object audio
device drop down.
Is there a known working config as far as Java version, jorgan version, ASIO4ALL version,
Jack IO version that should do what I want? I can try loading WIn7 on the laptop if that is
more compatible but not sure if all the hardware drivers exist for WIn7."
Hi Andy,
We had a long thread about the backends not working with Windows 10 over a year ago, after
Windows 10 was released. The problems were never resolved. The thread is archived on
https://jorgan.info/link.html , probably within the Jul-Dec 2021 period. Sven recently created
a backend to demonstrate the Fluidsynth 2 Reverb. It gets WASAPI to work with Windows 10, and
this may work with Jack- I don't know. But it is worth trying. However, it may be that you
find the FS2 Reverb satisfactory, in which case you don't need Jack or Cantabile.
The Graham Goode and BCA backends gave no trouble with Windows 8 and probably also Windows 7,
as far as I recall. I don't think that we have any reports about their use with Windows 11.
Please keep us informed about what progress you make.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-12-07 10:16
Andy,
Sorry. I meant to include these details from Sven's post of the 5th August:
"You can try out fluidsynth 2.2.8 with this backend for jOrgan:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/fluidsynth/Fluidsynth%202.2.8/
You have to unzip the file into your /lib/fluidsynth folder of your jOrgan installation,
then select the backend "fluidsynth-2.2.8" in the jOrgan settings."
To find those settings, click View > Configuration > fluidsynth.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2022-12-07 12:41
I can confirm that Portaudio back-ends don't work on Windows 11, running jOrgan at 32 bit
(with 32 Bit Java).
I will also suggest that all else being equal, latency is higher using dsound Fluidsynth
in 32 bit, than in 64 bit.
The Fluidsynth gain settings are also quite different, with 32 bit being significantly
louder than 64 bit.
I had thought previously there was little difference between 32 bit and 64 bit for jOrgan.
I had also thought that it was necessary to match the Bit version of other software jOrgan
was being connected to (and that this was the main factor in choosing which Bit version
to run).
Whilst it is imperative that the Bit version of Java and jOrgan are matched (for Fluidsynth
to work), the Bit version of music software feeding MIDI via virtual MIDI cable to jOrgan
doesn't matter. It might well be that jOrgan may need to match the Bit version of software
it is sending to, however if this is just MIDI then I don't think it will matter.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Andrew Wos on 2022-12-07 12:54
I will try fs 2.2 8. Should I use jorgan 3 or 4 with that backend?
Andy
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-12-07 21:04
On 2022-12-07 12:54, Andrew Wos wrote: "I will try fs 2.2 8. Should I use jorgan 3 or 4
with that backend?"
Andy,
As you are using 64-bit, I would recommend jOrgan 4.0 Beta 1, mainly on the assumption
that the latest version will have the most up-to-date security provisions.
Note that after making the settings in Configuration/Fluidsynth, you probably need to do
a re-start for the changes to take effect.
You still have to give attention to the audio driver setting in the Fluidsynth Properties
List (in Construct mode). My guess is that choosing wasapi is likely to give you the best
(i.e lowest) latency. I think also that you will need to adjust the buffer settings
somewhat - probably increasing them, but without spoiling the latency.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-12-07 22:05
On 2022-12-07 12:41, RickW wrote: "I can confirm that Portaudio back-ends don't work on
Windows 11 ..."
Rick,
Thank you for your report, and for your guidance and suggestions. I was hoping for some
improvement over Windows 10, but what you have found is not surprising.
Sven's backend, released in August, which I have recommended to Andy, does provide access
to WASAPI, and this should be useful to people who wish to use jOrgan in multi-channel
situations. I expect that it allows a better latency than does dsound, but this is a bit
of guesswork. The different outcomes you have described re 32/64-bit operation is rather
surprising.
Best wishes,
JohnR MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Bad News for Raspberry Pi users
From JohnR on 2022-12-09 12:47
Hi all,
Rick reported recently that one of his friends using jOrgan on an RPi now cannot use it since
the OS was upgraded. I can report the same thing on the RPi4 I use as a Desktop, having had to
replace my Buster installation with the new Bullseye one.
Marc-Paul is the same. His attempts to get his preference of jOrgan with Qsynth and Jack to
work with Bullseye are not yet succeeding, and it doesn't look good. It is not only jOrgan
which is giving trouble.
At least Buster is still available as the Legacy OS. But this will continue only for a period,
after which Bullseye will become the "new" Legacy.
Here is the error report:
Dec 09, 2022 11:57:21 AM jorgan.Version log
INFO: jOrgan null
os.arch = arm
os.name = Linux
os.version = 5.15.76-v7l+
java.home = /usr/lib/jvm/java-11-openjdk-armhf
java.version = 11.0.16
java.runtime.name = OpenJDK Runtime Environment
java.runtime.version = 11.0.16+8-post-Raspbian-1deb11u1
user.dir = /home/john
user.home = /home/john
user.country = US
user.language = en
user.name = john
Dec 09, 2022 11:57:22 AM jorgan.gui.LAF install
INFO: setting look and feel 'javax.swing.plaf.metal.MetalLookAndFeel'
Dec 09, 2022 11:57:33 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_OPEN_FILE action is not supported on the current platform!
Dec 09, 2022 11:57:33 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_QUIT_HANDLER action is not supported on the current platform!
Dec 09, 2022 11:57:33 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_PREFERENCES action is not supported on the current platform!
Dec 09, 2022 11:57:33 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_ABOUT action is not supported on the current platform!
Dec 09, 2022 11:57:46 AM jorgan.fluidsynth.Fluidsynth <clinit>
INFO: native failure
java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: /usr/lib/jorgan/lib/libfluidsynthJNI.so: libfluidsynth.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
at java.base/java.lang.ClassLoader$NativeLibrary.load0(Native Method)
at java.base/java.lang.ClassLoader$NativeLibrary.load(ClassLoader.java:2445)
at java.base/java.lang.ClassLoader$NativeLibrary.loadLibrary(ClassLoader.java:2501)
at java.base/java.lang.ClassLoader.loadLibrary0(ClassLoader.java:2700)
at java.base/java.lang.ClassLoader.loadLibrary(ClassLoader.java:2630)
at java.base/java.lang.Runtime.load0(Runtime.java:768)
at java.base/java.lang.System.load(System.java:1837)
at jorgan.util.NativeUtils.load(NativeUtils.java:54)
at jorgan.util.NativeUtils.load(NativeUtils.java:43)
at jorgan.fluidsynth.Fluidsynth.<clinit>(Fluidsynth.java:211)
at jorgan.fluidsynth.play.FluidsynthSoundPlayer.createSynth(FluidsynthSoundPlayer.java:116)
at jorgan.fluidsynth.play.FluidsynthSoundPlayer.update(FluidsynthSoundPlayer.java:58)
at jorgan.play.OrganPlay.createPlayer(OrganPlay.java:267)
at jorgan.play.OrganPlay.<init>(OrganPlay.java:100)
at jorgan.play.OrganPlaySessionProvider$1.<init>(OrganPlaySessionProvider.java:45)
at jorgan.play.OrganPlaySessionProvider.create(OrganPlaySessionProvider.java:44)
at jorgan.session.spi.SessionRegistry.create(SessionRegistry.java:36)
at jorgan.session.OrganSession.lookup(OrganSession.java:208)
at jorgan.play.OrganPlaySessionProvider.init(OrganPlaySessionProvider.java:36)
at jorgan.session.spi.SessionRegistry.init(SessionRegistry.java:29)
at jorgan.session.OrganSession.<init>(OrganSession.java:98)
at jorgan.gui.OrganFrame.openOrgan(OrganFrame.java:331)
at jorgan.gui.OrganFrame$RecentAction.actionPerformed(OrganFrame.java:447)
at java.desktop/javax.swing.AbstractButton.fireActionPerformed(AbstractButton.java:1967)
at java.desktop/javax.swing.AbstractButton$Handler.actionPerformed(AbstractButton.java:2308)
at java.desktop/javax.swing.DefaultButtonModel.fireActionPerformed(DefaultButtonModel.java:405)
at java.desktop/javax.swing.DefaultButtonModel.setPressed(DefaultButtonModel.java:262)
at java.desktop/javax.swing.AbstractButton.doClick(AbstractButton.java:369)
at java.desktop/javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicMenuItemUI.doClick(BasicMenuItemUI.java:1020)
at java.desktop/javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicMenuItemUI$Handler.mouseReleased(BasicMenuItemUI.java:1064)
at java.desktop/java.awt.AWTEventMulticaster.mouseReleased(AWTEventMulticaster.java:297)
at java.desktop/java.awt.Component.processMouseEvent(Component.java:6635)
at java.desktop/javax.swing.JComponent.processMouseEvent(JComponent.java:3342)
at java.desktop/java.awt.Component.processEvent(Component.java:6400)
at java.desktop/java.awt.Container.processEvent(Container.java:2263)
at java.desktop/java.awt.Component.dispatchEventImpl(Component.java:5011)
at java.desktop/java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Container.java:2321)
at java.desktop/java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Component.java:4843)
at java.desktop/java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.retargetMouseEvent(Container.java:4918)
at java.desktop/java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.processMouseEvent(Container.java:4547)
at java.desktop/java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.dispatchEvent(Container.java:4488)
at java.desktop/java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Container.java:2307)
at java.desktop/java.awt.Window.dispatchEventImpl(Window.java:2772)
at java.desktop/java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Component.java:4843)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEventImpl(EventQueue.java:772)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventQueue$4.run(EventQueue.java:721)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventQueue$4.run(EventQueue.java:715)
at java.base/java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
at java.base/java.security.ProtectionDomain$JavaSecurityAccessImpl.doIntersectionPrivilege(ProtectionDomain.java:85)
at java.base/java.security.ProtectionDomain$JavaSecurityAccessImpl.doIntersectionPrivilege(ProtectionDomain.java:95)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventQueue$5.run(EventQueue.java:745)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventQueue$5.run(EventQueue.java:743)
at java.base/java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
at java.base/java.security.ProtectionDomain$JavaSecurityAccessImpl.doIntersectionPrivilege(ProtectionDomain.java:85)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(EventQueue.java:742)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilters(EventDispatchThread.java:203)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForFilter(EventDispatchThread.java:124)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(EventDispatchThread.java:113)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(EventDispatchThread.java:109)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(EventDispatchThread.java:101)
at java.desktop/java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(EventDispatchThread.java:90)
Any thoughts?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-12-10 01:38
Hi John,
thanks for pointing out the new Raspi OS.
Don't fret, I will update the raspberry package soon.
Question: Should we go straight to the 64bit version?
Anyone using a Raspi version *not* listed here:
3B
3B+
3A+
4
400
CM3
CM3+
CM4
Zero 2 W
Regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-12-10 03:23
It great to hear from you Sven!!!!!
In the past week I have done extensive testing. The symptom with Qsynth is that the soundfonts
actually play but the pitch is way low and very soft. Fluidsynth won't even start. My thought
is that the sampling rate and bit depth are off. I don't really know.
As soon as I went back to Buster everything worked OK.
I have just this morning made a 64 bit OS and am going to test it. I also booted the RPi 4 from
a SSD and it works quite well.
For me... I need Qsynth, a2jmidid and JACK to work in the 64bit mode or I will stick to 32bit jOrgan
and all around.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-12-10 06:32
On 2022-12-10 01:38, Sven Meier wrote: “Should we go straight to the 64bit version?”
Sven,
I incline towards the 32 bit version for the time being, but I don't really know about it. What
advantages do you see in going straight to the 64-bit?
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Sven Meier on 2022-12-10 07:31
Just to do the transition once and be done with it:
https://raspberrytips.com/raspberry-pi-os-64-bits-vs-32-bits/
An additional performance boost is always appreciated.
As far as I understand all (?) RasPis support 64bit.
Regards
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-12-10 16:07
On 2022-12-10 03:23, Marc-Paul wrote: "I have just this morning made a 64 bit
OS and am going to test it. I also booted the RPi 4 from a SSD and it works quite well.”
Marc-Paul,
I am sure that you will test it for Qsynth and Jack. I would also be interested in hearing
how well VLC Media Player works (if at all). In practice I often use VLC on my RPi desktop to
listen to .wav files. For this it is very convenient. But occasionally I also use it to view
MP4 files, which means video. It is also important that Audacity works on it, and, of course,
LibreOffice.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-12-10 17:03
Hi John...
Actually everything works except jOrgan in the 64bit... and Qsynth works
well with the midi input from Jack-Keyboard... so the future looks bright.
Booting from a SSD was easy to setup and I expect more reliable... and
faster all around.
VLC works super.
I have posted to the forum... my procedure works fine to power a self made
disposition from the Jeux soundfont... someplace to start from. The problem
was that the last update corrupted the soundfont I was using.
Kindest Regards MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
jOrgan on RPi 3B+ 4(B) running Bullseye working with Qsynth
From Marc-Paul on 2022-12-10 16:56
Greetings RPi fans…
…below is how I made jOrgan work in RPi OS Bullseye.
The previous RPi OS Buster is no problem. My experience was that the last update broke Qsynth.
That in fact is not what happened. The last update corrupted my soundfont. I just did a full
install of Bullseye from scratch of both 32bit and 64bit to compare what works and all the apps
I use work in both… except of course jOrgan itself.
Here’s what you need besides jOrgan. Qjackctl, a2midid, Qsynth (fluidsynth 2x), Jack-Keyboard
(for testing). All are in repository. I use rpt-midi to network in the midi data stream from
a Mac OSX. Use your usual.
General Understanding:
Midi data into jOrgan. Midi data out of jOrgan via Generic Sound by "a2jmdidid".
"a2jmdidd" creates a link/route in JACK which can be set to Qsynth.
The audio output (soundfont) from Qsynth can be routed to your soundcard in JACK.
NOTE: If you stop JACK you will have to restart a2jmidid.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Start in reverse order... that is with JACK. Run Qjackctl to start JACK. Then use these
settings:
Setup/Settings/Parameters: Driver: alsa, Interface: hw:Headphones (for internal), MIDI Driver: none,
Sample Rate: 44100 (usually), Frames and Periods: default.
Click the Advanced TAB: Set Output Device to: hw:Headphones,0 (for internal). Set Channels I/O to
2 and 2. I have found it useful in certain cases to set Start Delay to 3 or 4 seconds.
HIT OK. Start JACK. Open Graph.
Notice Green System Playback 1 & 2. These are your audio outputs. Move everything else out of the
way if you wish. We will be working in this window as we go along.
Either Run or Terminal: a2jmidid. Terminal shows you settings... Run does not.
Notice in the JACK Graph window that two boxes of RED have appeared. We will be using the left box
shortly. Notice names in left RED boxes... especially the 2nd entry.
Now open Qsynth and notice the JACK graph apperance of it. In Qsynth notice the two Active check
boxes and uncheck if desired.
Click Setup. MIDI Tab. Set MIDI Driver: to jack. MIDI Device: no entry. MIDI Channels 16 for each
former fluidsynth instance.
Audio Tab. Audio Driver: jack. The other settings are the usual: ie Sample Rate: 44100 etc.
Soundfont Tab. Load your soundfont. Hit OK.
On the main Qsynth display click Options. On General tab click check box Output peak level meters.
This helps in troubleshooting. Click OK.
We are now ready for jOrgan. I have put my jOrgan files in "Public" like I would for a Mac OS.
But the default install is perfecly OK.
Start jOrgan. As an example I am using a small Jeux disposition I created. Customize with your
midi interface. On Sound Element select VirMIDI (hw1,0,0) Save your settings.
Correct other errors in the disposition in the usual way. Save and come out of Construct mode.
Press any key on the jOrgan keyboard or midi keyboard and notice the lower right hand corner of
jOrgan to see if midi output is visible.
Now go back to the JACK graph window and connect the RED "VirMIDI 1-0" (2nd entry on left) to the
RED midi_00 on qsynth. This routes midi data from jOrgan to Qsynth via aj2midid.
The audio out of Qsynth here on JACK graph goes to System or your sound card as designated in Jack
Setup.
You should now have sound from pressing keys in jOrgan.
You can have more than one Stereo pair from jOrgan by using another instance of this chain.
This works on both 3B+ and 4B in the newest OS updated.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-12-12 17:19____________________
On 2022-12-10 16:56, Marc-Paul wrote: " …below is how I made jOrgan work in RPi OS Bullseye."
Marc-Paul,
Thank you for your instructions. I am so pleased that you have restored use of jOrgan to my
RPi4 Desktop, which now has the Bullseye OS. The sound of the FS2 reverb is excellent ... so
long as one doesn't just hold down a single note! :-)
But in most musical contexts I find it very enjoyable.
Best wishes,
JohnR________________________MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
From Sven Meier on 2022-12-20 02:10
Hi all,
I've uploaded jOrgan 4.1 for Raspi OS bullseye. From now on only the 64bit version will
be supported:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-rpi/4.1/
(Current build for Ubuntu is available too here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-package/4.1/ )
Have fun
Sven
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-12-20 04:45________
_______
Greets RPi users
Thank you Sven!!!
On a clean install of Bullseye jOrgan 4.1 worked the first time with fluidsynth as
I created a small definition based on the Jeux soundfont.
I think I will try Raspbian Bullseye on an old Mac Mini to see if that would be
a viable OS.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
From Marc-Paul on 2022-12-23 11:21
I am trying to install jOrgan in Debian 11 Bullseye. The installer says
“The following packages have unmet dependencies:” with nothing else.
I have installed Java 11 and checked for sure it’s a 64bit system with
64bit OS. The computer is a intel based mac mini. Everything else seems
to be OK.
Any Debian/Linux help would be appreciated.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2022-12-23 13:35
Update:
I did not see the last line of Sven’s email… that jOrgan for Ubuntu was updated.
I installed Ubuntu studio and so far jOrgan works fine… I am continuing to test.
I am hoping that the Ubuntu OS will be easier for someone with an older mac to
setup and use.
These older Mac Mini’s have Thunderbolt, USB, Firewire and a decent audio chip.
They are easily upgraded with RAM and SSD. Most of the USB audio cards are
recognized.
They are really reasonably priced on ebay.
Cheers
Marc-Paul______MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
From John Dubery on 2022-12-24 22:13
Happy Christmas all,
Many years ago Thomnas Adams wrote a set of Variations on Adeste Fideles (O come
all ye faithful), a Christmas carol) - you can find the music on free-scores.com.
I've done a recording of it on my virtual restoration of the Kelmscott organ (John
Reimer's Earlwood 4), which is a late 18th century English chamber organ - another
jorgan disposition I may well release sometime.
As there is no MIDI file provided this was OMR'd using audiveris with a fair bit of
manual intervention.
You can find the recording at:
OGG file:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bYhwa8ypi6XYH-W0mQN810iJnq-4CfyV/view?usp=sharing
WAV file:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FHNKm-uQoOoeYYhg10J1S5fCvkSoeRuF/view?usp=sharing
Score edition © 2018 by Maurizio Machella
Disposition credits: John Dubery, J Reimer, P Ghekas
License: CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0
John
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Dubery on 2022-12-25 02:22
Happy Christmas - with gifts - Dixon-inspired upgrade and Christmas MIDI file
Happy Christmas again all,
Also this year I have an update to my jorgan Dixon-inspired disposition for you all.
The disposition contains some small and mid-sized instruments for jOrgan inspired
by the writings of George Dixon
Updates for this year:
* a new small instrument added (Ellenborough Methodist Church)
* a fixed sample
* add the wind destabiliser from John Reimer's Norden Schnitger disposition
* add several MIDI files including J. E. West: Fantasy on Two Well-known Christmas
Carols
* various small tweaks and description improvements
So - 2 files - one with the disposition (incl. sf2), one with some MIDI files for it:
DixonInspired r2230.zip
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AnodsdVC98OwI-Af2poIzG9QMjzRurwk/view?usp=sharing
DixonInspired-MIDIFiles r2231.zip
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11Qpqg6fQIVzHX63b0gf-77RRij2WsIVb/view?usp=sharing
many blessings,
John
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-12-25 04:22
Thanks John. I downloaded these.
A Blessed Christmas to you and all.
Mark
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2022-12-25 08:30
Hi John,
and a Happy Christmas to you, and to all.
Thank you for that quite lovely recording, and for the work that went into
producing it.
I recorded the sounds of that organ in Kelmscott, Western Australia many years ago.
Access was easy, as the minister at the church at the time was a friend from here
in Sydney. Years later, because of jOrgan, I was able to use the recordings in making
the hybrid samples for the disposition. The Kelmscott organ has now been restored,
returning it to what was thought to be a likely original specification. That may even
include a Sesquialtera.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Dubery on 2022-12-25 09:59
John,
The Cornet/Sesquialtera in my disposition are correct to the original and
hence also the restored instrument.
I started without knowing about the physical restoration, then found out about
it and brought my version into line.
John
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Bill Skees on 2022-12-25 13:36
Hi All,
I did something similar a few years ago, using instrument voices from the Allman jOrgan.
I think you can find it at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI0YPmUowr4&list=OLAK5uy_lDVnHTFv6FnY07X9D64mPlk9I2HEF1xAE&index=17
Good luck,
Bill
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-12-25 14:06
Merry New Year and Happy Christmas!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDErxftOJbM
ƒg
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Chester Berry on 2022-12-26 04:34______
Happy Christmas / Best of New Year wishes
To everyone on this list, the Happiest of Christmases and the most joyous and
prosperous of new years!
/s/Chester H Berry MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
From T Gleeson on 2023-01-16 02:03
Hi,
Just joined the mailing list and wanted to say hello and a BIG thankyou.
I had what must have been a prototype pipe organ sample thing years ago and
lost it. I've been trawling the internet for it ever since and then came
across jOrgan purely by chance.
The organs are absolutely fantastic and give me the shivers when I play them!!
The interface is also quite impressive with the stops clearly labelled and the
ability to store presets – brilliant!!!
I am not much of a keyboard player but can knock out a few hymns when I'm asked
to at the local church (which has its own 2 manual pipe organ but which sounds
a bit dull).
I am hoping I can set up the jOrgan player to be able to record in Studio One –
I'm getting a signal into my interface, the midi records on the track but the
organ doesn't sound on playback so I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions?
This is so I can 'tweak' my performances before playing to the congregation.
So thanks again for the amazing instruments – you never know I may become an
organist yet!!
Kind regards,
Tony
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Chester Berry on 2023-01-16 02:52
Tony,
Welcome to the list! I'm so glad to hear that you are finding much of value here.
I wonder sometimes how long we will have ANY of the current digital organ builders
with us, when people can build their own, and create exactly what they want with
the tools Sven Meier has provided in jOrgan.
Very best wishes and warmest welcome!
/s/Chester H Berry
Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2023-01-16 04:03
Hi Tony...
...it would be helpful to us to know if you are using a PC or a Mac
and what OS.
If I understand your issue correctly... you wish to record in Studio One and then
play it back to jOrgan. So you need to hear jOrgan as you are recording... which
means that you can then edit your midi tracks and also playback to jOrgan. The
midi chain would be midi controller, sequencer, jOrgan.
You may have to use loopMIDI or rptMIDI to make that happen... depending
on your computer OS. Both are free from https://www.tobias-erichsen.de/software.html.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Ton- Gle on 2023-01-16 04:08
Hi Marc-Paul,
Yes that's it exactly. Basically I want to record jOrgan in S1 using a midi keyboard.
Should have said I'm using PC, S1 Artist 5, Windows 11 i7 16gb RAM.
Hope that helps.
Thanks,
Tony
Kind regards,
Tony Gleeson
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2023-01-16 08:26
Tony,
It was good to have a new user of jOrgan sending a post to the Mailing List,
and I found it heart-warming to read how appreciative you are of what jOrgan
has to offer.
You don't make it clear whether you are already using the Recorder feature
which jOrgan has. This produces midi files of your own playing and of whatever
stops you are using, with the usual file extension of .mid . However, those
are not altogether standard midi files, and should be regarded as in-house.
They work fully only with jOrgan and probably only if one has the same
disposition loaded as was used to create the file. I know that they can be
edited in a midi editor, although this remark probably does not apply to
changing the information regarding the use of the stops.
One accesses the Recorder by clicking on View > Recorder.
I have given a brief description of the use of the jOrgan Recorder in my
INSTRUCTIONS file ( https://jorgan.info/INSTRUCTIONS.pdf )
Best wishes,
John R
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Ton- Gle on 2023-01-16 08:48
Hello John,
Thanks for the info.
I've had a long fascination with and appreciation of organ music. Goes back
to having an amazingly good (to my ears) organ and player at the church I went to
as a kid. That kind of stuff stays with you.
Have often been to recitals and been in awe of what organists do.
Guitar was my first instrument though self taught and only got into keyboards when
at college...so a little too late! Went through the usual stages of being in
bands etc.
Now I try to play too many instruments but enjoy the learning process (my latest
project being melodeon lol).
I've only had a quick look at the recorder which would require me to be much more
adept at playing than I currently am. So I plan on recording in my Presonus Studio
One DAW giving me the ability to record parts to tracks individually when the
technical side is beyond me. Someone here suggested midilooper (?) as a mediator
between jOrgan and my DAW so I'll check that out later this week.
Kind regards,
Tony
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2023-01-16 09:05
Hello Tony, and welcome to jOrgan
You don't say what disposition you are using.
As a couple of members have already responded, there are two ways you can record
MIDI with relation to jOrgan.
One way is to use the inbuilt MIDI recorder function. If it is not shown on the
particular disposition you are using, it can be added.
The major benefit of using this method is that registration changes made by
touch-screen, mouse or computer keyboard are also recorded and therefore reproduced
in the MIDI file.
The other way is to use an external (hardware or software) MIDI sequencer/recorder,
and capture the MIDI exactly as it is being fed into jOrgan.
To do this in software, you need to use a virtual (or software) MIDI connection.
MidiYoke, LoopMIDI, LoopBe are options to achieve this.
Let us know what disposition you are using, and based on these descriptions, which
way you would like to proceed and we can help further with specific questions to
get to going.
Regards
Rick.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Chris Pearson on 2023-01-17 01:10
Hi, All
Yes, nice to see that there is still an interest in organs, be it VPO or
the real MacCoy.
A warm welcome to you, Tony.
I watched a TV prog a few weeks ago about the number of UK churches closing
and organs being scrapped.
Some are being rescued, restored and then sold abroad.
Pushing 80, I know not how long I will be with you and my hearing is getting
progressively worse, I can hear only up to 4 kHz max. :-(
I have four VPOs which I haven't upload yet to my usual repository on
Mediafire which need a little polishing before I do.
If there is a demand for these I will go ahead with the work.
They are:-
1/. St Martins, Memmingham, Bavaria. (nice recording on YT) Marcel
Lanquetuit - Toccata in D major - Jane Parker-Smith - Organ of St Martin,
Memmingen, Germany - YouTube
2/. A 4 manual in the style of Cavaille-Coll, console based on N.D. de Paris.
3/. A 3 manual in the style of Father Henry Willis.
4/. St John the Divine NYC.
Regards
Chris Pearson
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Denis on 2023-01-17 02:08
Welcome Tony, I believe you will find the group very helpful in any organ
endeavors you may take on. Glad you joined.
Hi Chris, long time no hear from. OBTW I passed the 80 mark a couple of years
ago - not a lot of fun. The 4 manual Cavaille-Coll looks very interesting. If
I can help in any way, please let me know.
Regards,
Dennis
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2023-01-17 03:26
Hi Chris...
...thankyou for mentioning the instruments you are working
on. Please consider this note about a hundred thumbs up for
getting those published.
What an incredible gift.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Bob Brown on 2023-01-20 04:49
On Jan 16, 2023, Chris Pearson wrote: "I have four VPOs which I haven't
upload yet to my usual repository on Mediafire which need a little polishing
before I do. If there is a demand for these I will go ahead with the work.”
Hi Chris
That would be a yes, yes, yes and yes-please from me.
I'm new to the VPO world, but have played several medium sized 3 and 4
manual pipe organs as well as many smaller ones and a good few digitals.
My preference is for 3 manuals and 30 to 50 stops and British voicing,
but your suggestions are all extremely interesting.
All I need now is some free time to turn 3 ex-digital keyboards into a
3 manual stack.
Best wishes
Bob Brown
Perthshire UK_______________MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
No midi device showing jOrgan Pup distro
From Kevin J King on 2023-01-23 08:38
Hi,
I used with success an old jOrgan Puppy Linux operating system during the 2020
lock down. Unfortunately the laptop died, so I moved over to Hauptwerk.
However, I've acquired a spare laptop and have installed the jOrgan disto again.
I believe it has about 25 organs, some of which are now obsolete on the 'net.
Everything works (it's jO 3.14) but it will not see my Yamaha keyboard with its
special 5 pin midi interface. The interface is designed especially for Yamaha and
was originally quite expensive. I had to get drivers installed for it to operate
under Hauptwerk on Windows.
On jOrgan, under midi devices it is not shown, I've tried jack control and its
midi ports but again no sign of the midi device. I've also tried another PC and
it exhibits exactly the same behaviour.
Will the midi to USB interface just work as plug and play in Linux, even if it
requires a driver in Windows? I'm stumped - I could I suppose try another midi
keyboard!
Regards Kevin.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2023-01-23 12:10
Hello Kevin...
...here's what I would do.
Install Ubuntu Studio on the Laptop. Sven has revised/renewed a version of
jOrgan (better reverb in fluidsynth) that works perfectly.
Then plug in the usb midi interface and see if Ubuntu knows it... my guess
is that it will. It has worked on my old M-Audio firewire interface... of
course that is using a Mac Mini that has Firewire built in.
I spice up Hauptwerk definitions with jOrgan... as well as using it stand alone.
Good-Luck
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Kevin J King on 2023-01-23 18:45
Thanks that sounds like the better solution?
Is there anyway to use the definitions on the jOrgan pup iso? I've expanded
thr image and all I can see is a 600mb .sfs file.
Regards Kevin
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2023-01-24 02:47
I don't know anything about the pup.
You can install Ubuntu Studio on a flash drive and try it... all the
instructions are on the Ubuntu Studio site along with the free downloads etc.
You could also do a Raspberry Pi. I have my RPi booting from a SSD and it
quite satisfactory with the revised jOrgan... not to mention the OS has
recognized every USB creative sound card I have plugged into it.
Good Luck
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Kevin J King on 2023-01-24 04:23
Thanks,
Now installing Ubuntu Studio! This will be on a Microsoft Surface Pro.
I hope to dual boot it with Windows.
I'll update this discussion when I'm successful.
Regards
Kevin
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Kevin J King on 2023-01-25 06:54
OK, change of plan. Installed jOrgan 3.21 on my Surface Pro. Works a treat
and detects my midi devices.
However I'm using the Stratman English Cathedral Organ- it's a wonderfully
comprehensive disposition, - but I feel the sound isn't quite as perfect as
I'm used to with hauptwerk. In particular it sounds almost mono instead of
stereo.
Is there anyway I can improve on the audio? The samples themselves are
very convincing.
Many thanks
Kevin_____________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2023-01-25 09:49
Hello again Kevin...
...I've been doing research comparing electronics instruments, what I
know about Dolby audio setup and recording of classical chamber music.
I have studied how Hauptwerk divides the audio on version 4 and the
current version 7.
I am currently dividing soundfonts to reflect the C/C# split in pipe chests.
I am working with 4 stereo pairs. So the end result will be either
Principals C/C#, Flutes-Reeds C/C# or Great separated from Swell etc.
So far I am quite satisfied with the sound vs Hauptwerk.
I have also tested 5 different USB sound cards (soundblaster) M-Audio
Firewire and the PreSonus FireStudio Project. The FireStudio wins hands
down... not a surprise as it cost more that all the others combined.
Two USB cards are favored. The old SB0490 SoundBlaster USB. (Dolby 5.1
3 stereo pairs. Sampling rate restrictions.) And the newer SB1810... 4
stereo pairs.
In the simplest terms with 3 stereo pairs... dividing stops out on the
Great and then a separate Swell works very nicely.
You will need to learn how to use Jack Audio connection kit or equivalent.
That's my 2 cents worth. (Actually about all my sense.)
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Kevin J King on 2023-01-25 18:50
OK, thanks very much. I'm just using the internal sound card on the Surface,
it's OK with Hauptwerk but obviously I appreciate it can be improved upon.
I'll look to getting a usb sound card as suggested.
What I like about jOrgan is the fact I can load a large instrument without
running out of memory. On Hauptwerk I'm forever deciding which ranks I can
do without, especially on a cathedral sized organ, to get it to load. And
often those strings are the attraction in the first place.
Thanks again for excellent support with regards to jOrgan.
Kevin_______________________MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
From Arun herberts on 2023-01-24 04:20
Hi,
I connected three same model Midi keyboards for great, swell and pedal
but only one keyboard is showing up in the mIdi input selection drop down.
Could anybody help me?
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2023-01-24 05:23
Hi Arun...
Under View/Configuration/Midi you could try "Enumerate devices" and see if
that helps. You will have to reset any devices already set.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2023-01-24 06:00
I am thinking of doing the same thing. The MIDI channel number is the same
on all three. (cheap junk). They are USB MIDI out and I do not know if
USB will sort this out. I have one and it works fine.
If you want to get started cheap to begin with and it will work this may do it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144463955801?hash=item21a2b90759:g:7tQAAOSwcGhiMY0u&amdata
=enc%3AAQAHAAABAMffcb%2F999AJkalDxvbjbyNuvaVOfvFn1Yo05sLaI15JM%2Fu8wlwo%2F4Kxik77a
AAl037jNOKAx1b53SzvbNmJa%2BIV4wAvqzvj3pbTkm%2FEvsiar7fAixHLz14vIoIN88xUSLUNyrexwwO6
sV95fWJjTZtBRnIq7uniPUfJwuV0lI6td9o99JLQGPbDhvHWuOBTKPZrOVB8bNV8kIAGpVRUyilRtVsDAj
PZXwSrkrspqkMAXuZ%2FhhPjyfMSRLEk%2F3dNlVL%2FV6R3Pr%2BWlhddWw8XimK5boH1d3ZCVK9hLgYsU
6dqs2p9GLU5Z%2BB89aQve1oaHoiwztoDDplNI1NuvjlMhfM%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6TA4_-7YQ
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2023-01-24 08:56
Hi Freeman...
You might not have a problem if you can select different midi devices in
jOrgan. They can all transmit on the same channel if it comes from a
different device with the enumerator.
Good Luck
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2023-01-24 09:40
Paul
"Devices" Swell, Great, Choir? I do not have 3 keyboards of the same kind
and on the same channel. The one I have is the one from ebay, one channel
USB out. The others would be on the same channel. How would jOrgan handle
this? I think each would be assigned a different USB number by the computer.
So, would you have to do a keyboard setup each time by turning one on at a
time? (Assuming that it will work)
Thank you, ƒg
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2023-01-24 17:10
Hello Arun
Yes, jOrgan has a solution for this issue.
Open jOrgan (don't need to have a disposition open)
Go to, View - Configuration - MIDI, check "Enumerate devices"
Restart jOrgan
This fix was created after I think Windows 8, where a new generic MIDI
Driver was introduced by Windows that doesn't differentiate the name of
multiple MIDI devices using the generic MIDI driver.
Once this is done, you will see each individual device. You will just need
to physically test each one to find the correct Division it needs to be
allocated to based on your physical layout.
Also once this is done, because each keyboard is a separate MIDI (USB)
Device, there is no problem for each to transmit on default Channel 1.
(It is only old 5 pin DIN plug MIDI devices all routed through one MIDI
Interface that need to be allocated different MIDI addresses.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2023-01-24 17:19
There is a simple setting in jOrgan which once set, solves this problem.
Open jOrgan (no need to have a disposition open)
Go to; View - Configuration - MIDI, check "Enumerate devices"
Restart jOrgan
Each MIDI Device available will show up with a # and a unique number.
Any previously hidden identical named devices will now show up.
I actually personally think this should be default to ticked on.
How many people get stuck with this and don't go to the trouble of joining
the mailing list to ask for help?
This issue has been around for about 10 years now. I think it was with
the introduction of Windows 8 where a new generic Windows MIDI driver was
introduced that doesn't show unique device names.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Arun herberts on 2023-01-24 18:09
Thank you Marc and Rick for your swift response. All three manuals started working.
Regards,
Arun.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2023-01-24 19:54_______________
Thanks for the follow-up.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2023-01-26 13:29
Rick:
I am building two organs, one with my grandson. All the stuff is at his
place so I cannot look to see that # number at this time. I only have
one of the keyboards and plan to buy four more if this will work.
I have a question about the number. How is this # number assigned?
Is this number assigned by the operating system, the polling number (address)
for USB port? If so it will be different each time the OS is turned on
(is my understanding). This would require keeping everything turned on,
or set up each time in use.
What is troubling to me, three identical keypads with the same default
channel hooked to the same USB hub could each appear as individual USB devices.
Thank you, ƒg
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2023-01-26 14:50
On 2023-01-26 13:29, Freeman Gilmore wrote:
“Rick:
What is troubling to me, three identical keypads with the same default
chanel hooked to the
same USB hub could each appear as individual USB devices.”
Hi Freeman,
Rick has written a tutorial which will answer some of your questions.
There is a link to it on this page in the jOrgan Infobase:
https://jorgan.info/base/e/Enumerate.html
I have posted this to save Rick from going through some of the information
found there.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2023-01-26 16:59
Thanks John
Yes, that document really does cover everything.
Hi Freeman
Yes, along with the "Enumerate" function, is the option to "Cache devices".
This does take care of your concern.
If you read the document that John has linked, it will go into the full detail.
But in a nutshell, it is important to always plug USB devices into the same USB
Port (or Hub position) as when they were originally configured.
This is not a jOrgan issue, this is to do with how Windows handles USB devices.
Yes, it will work. Please be careful to keep things in the same ports, and
have everything powered up and recognised by Windows before opening jOrgan.
Regards
Rick
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
Fluidsynth Mapping of Ranks and Presets in Soundfonts
From Ken Knollman on 2023-01-26 07:15
Hi, all.
I have been trying to understand how Fluidsynth maps ranks to Soundfont
Presets. To do this, I have created a new disposition using the Klop
soundfont, comparing results from my new disposition with the Klop
disposition. I have followed GrahamG's " Building a Custom jOrgan
Fluidsynth Disposition" from the jOrgan Tutorials page. With the exception
of creating a graphical console, I have followed all of the steps for
importing all of the ranks from the Klop soundfont file, set up the
Fluidsynth Sound element, set up 3 virtual keyboards and assigned all
stops accordingly. I have set up the properties on the Fluidsynth Sound
element to be identical to those found in the actual Klop disposition.
Opening the soundfont in Polyphone, I see there are 3 banks of presets,
one for each division with 6 to 10 presets per bank. What I am experiencing
is that Fluidsynth is not recognizing the banks in the soundfont.
Everything seems to default to bank 0. What I am seeing when importing
the soundfont into jOrgan is the preset names, but no references to the
banks or preset numbers. When I select a stop from either bank 1 or bank
2, what I am hearing is the rank from the bank 0 preset.
I have examined and compared what I believe are all the relevant elements
and properties between the Klop disposition and the simple one I have created,
and other than the fact that the names of the ranks and stops in the Klop
disposition have been changed from what has been imported from the soundfont,
I can find no explanation for this issue. I have changed some of the names
in my disposition as well, but to no avail.
I would appreciate if someone can explain what I am missing. Thanks.
Ken Knollman
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From JohnR on 2023-01-26 08:27
Hi Ken,
The answer is simple, as you have probably expected.
What you need to do in Construct mode is to bring up the Messages View
and select each rank, one at a time. On the 3rd line of the Messages for
a selected rank, you will see "Engaged set 192, set x", where is x is
actually the preset number as designated in the soundfont. This can be
altered by the user.
The second line ends with "set 0, set 0". I think that the second "0"
indicates "Bank 0" (which some people would call Bank 1). I am a bit vague
on this, as I have never had to alter it. I think I have read that
Fluidsynth is set up to use this bank only, but someone more in the know
may like to comment.
Best wishes,
JohnR
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From Ken Knollman on 2023-01-26 09:08
Hi, John.
So, the third "set" term in the second "Engaged" line appears to select the bank.
The preset number in the third "Engaged" line already appears to be set in all ranks.
Thanks!
Ken Knollman
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From Sven Meier on 2023-01-27 10:46
Hi Ken,
jOrgan ignores all bank information when importing a Soundfont. You can
specify an bank number explicitly, but this is applied to presets in the
Soundfont.
You will have to add bank select messages to each Rank element. Check the
"messages" tab in jOrgan and compare its contents between your disposition
and the Klop one.
Best regards
Sven
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From Ken Knollman on 2023-01-27 12:06_________NEWEST POST
Hi, Sven.
John Reimer has filled me in on setting the bank select in the message for
the rank. I understand now.
I have another question - about the Memory element. Is there a way to
execute a save on the xx.memory file independent of saving it with the
disposition file using the Executor element? I ask because I would like
to save the combinations every time I perform a Captor (Set Combination)
operation.
Thanks!
Ken Knollman
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