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PAST ARCHIVES (Click to access)
2024 Jul-Dec______2024 Jan-Jun
2023 Jul-Dec______2023 Jan-Jun______2022 Jul-Dec______2022 Jan-Jun _____2021 Jul-Dec
jOrgan website for new users___Sticky Post
Question about MIDI CC 7 or CC11___By JohnR_Newest post on 2025-02-13___424 replies
Enumerate option___By Lynn Walls_Most post on 2025-02-08___411 replies
Using customizer to detect/set messages for swell shoe___By ron_Most recent post on 2025-02-04___42 replies
Java on Mac___By Bill Skees_Most recent post on 2025-02-02___41 reply
jOrgan 4.2 on Mac___By ken___Most recent post on 2025-02-02__47 replies
jOrgan RPI?___By Freeman Gilmore_Most recent post on 2025-01-18___45 replies
New jOrgan VPO - the ROMANTIC HARMONY___By JohnR_Most recent post on 2025-01-17__412 replies
Best jorgan theatre organ sounds___By Andrew Wos_Most recent post on 2025-01-07___41 reply
From JohnR
This website has been created to make it easier for internet users to discover jOrgan and to start
using it. Its main pages are HOME, STARTING, ADDING, GALLERY, F.A.Q., THIS SITE and CONTACT.
The web address is https://jorgan.info
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *
From JohnR on 2024-12-25 19:20
A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to one and all!
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jonathan Aquilina on 2024-12-25 19:25
Morning John,
Same to you and your family and to everyone on this list and their families 😊
Regards,
Jonathan Aquilina
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Dubery on 2024-12-25 20:25
And a happy and blessed Christmas to one and all from me too
John Dubery
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Chester Berry on 2024-12-26 00:25
And the same to you, JohnR, and to everyone else on this list!
/s/Chester H Berry
Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2024-12-26 08:20
A Blessed Christmas and a Happy and prosperous New Year to you all and your families.
Mark Bugeja
Maltese Historic Pipe Organs
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________*
END OF THREAD
New jOrgan VPO - the ROMANTIC HARMONY
From JohnR on 2025-01-02 10:50
Hi all,
I am pleased to announce a new jOrgan VPO, the ROMANTIC HARMONY. It is a 2-manuals and pedal organ,
with 37 stops. Some samples are recorded from pipe organs in the Sydney area and were used in my
previous jOrgan VPO’s. Others are from the same source but have been carefully “revoiced” from
information gathered from recorded samples of organs in Europe or the United States, almost all of
which are accessible on the Internet.
A serious attempt has been made to reproduce the sound of Romantic pipe organs of the late 19th
Century, but to do so without involving any copyright issues. No direct copying of files has been
done. This has required much extra time-consuming work. The method used builds on my previous
attempts at revoicing recordings I had already made, most of which come from local organs of that
period. In the case of one fairly important stop, I have compared the new sounds with those of the
sounds being imitated, and have been challenged to discern any difference. However, this applies
to the “”held on” sounds, and no attempt has been made to reproduce the starting sounds or any
release transients. I have had to be satisfied that the local organs were being made at much the
same time, in the U.K., and that they can be expected to have much the same transient
characteristics as those in Europe or the United States. The one exception is the Principal 4’ on
the Great. In this case I have created discrete attacks synthetically, to impart what I feel was a
much-needed improvement.
The disposition package includes two folders of jOrgan MIDI files, the same as in my previous VPO’s,
along with a pdf document dealing with using them in the jOrgan Recorder. I have rewritten that pdf,
as only a week ago I discovered that for ten years or more I have seriously under-estimated the
great usefulness of the icons which are displayed at the far left of the Recorder View. This has
allowed me now to alter any existing jOrgan MIDI files so that they can be played unimpeded on the
new ROMANTIC HARMONY and on any jOrgan VPO. I was able to make that improvement with great ease.
Three such modified files are all found in the “GBOmidi” folder. One is already loaded in the
disposition: the “reger3chor.mid”. The others are the Bach “bwv556.mid” and the Handel “concerto.mid”.
(I add that I have just re-read the new pdf and have realised that it needs to be improved. This
shall be done before the final release of the new VPO.)
The new VPO differs from my previous ones, where a small amount of detuning of some ranks was done to
make the result sound more authentic. This has not been done this time. I have noticed that the
Fluidsynth 2 Reverb greatly reduces the need for that detuning. (The detuning may not have pleased
everyone, but I do not recall anyone complaining, ever! I shall, before the final release, create a
second soundfont where that same detuning is applied).
I welcome any comments or suggestions, especially to show if there is any interest in a 3-manuals
version. I don’t wish to increase the size of the soundfont (about 200 MB), but it is possible to
re-assign or add existing stops to another manual without making much difference to the soundfont size.
Here is the link to the zipped file, which expanded becomes the disposition folder:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y0g0w4XOeepzqCZM8JzbEoTjYwSvrfLQ/view?usp=sharing
(You need to copy & paste this to your Internet Browser window.)
Best wishes,
JohnR
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From Chester Berry on 2025-01-02 11:05
John,
Thanks for all your work in preparing and distributing what sounds like a phenomenal VPO. I look
forward to spending time enjoying its delights!
/s/Chester H Berry
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From Marc-Paul on 2025-01-02 16:19
JohnR:
This is a stupendous offering and addition to the Organs available from you.
It is clear right away how much time and effort went into the console and sound... it is so
beautifully done.
Congratulations and Thank You for such an artistic triumph.
Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul
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From John Beach on 2025-01-02 17:09
JohnR., my comments, here, concern the wording you have used in " However, this applies to the
""held on" sounds, and no attempt has been made to reproduce the starting sounds or any release
transients."
By, "held on" sounds, do you mean the "sustained portion" of the recording of a sample, apart from
the "starting sounds," meaning "attacks," or "any release transients?" That is, ASDR, attack,
sustain, decay and release?
Which brings me to a serious question about ASDR. I can not understand why the order sequence is
attack, sustain, decay and release, particularly, as regards organ sound, since, we know, the organ
sustains tone so long as a key remains depressed or held (or ciphers). In the case of the organ,
the order, properly, is; attack, sustain, release and decay.
In the case of the pianoforte, it is true that the order is; attack, sustain, decay and release, due
to the fact of the piano being a percussion instrument, a hammer hitting a string, and, immediately,
being released to fall back to its rest position,(regardless of whether the key remains depressed,
such is the nature of the action in the pianoforte) thus, causing the string to begin the "decay"
portion of the sound sequence. Since string length (like pipe length) determines the actual pitch or
frequency of the sound, the detuning (or variation in pitch) due to the natural decay of the sound,
after release, is not, objectionably, noticeable. However, since this factor is an acoustic, space-
relative phenomenon, virtual instruments with recorded samples, with artificial reverberation (even
recorded samples from a specific, space environment), will have a decay that is NOT space-relative to
the building in which the virtual instrument is being played. To the untrained ear, this may not be
a noticeable or objectionable difference factor. To the purist, it may be noticeable and objectionable.
How often has it been said that the building- space acoustics are the most important stop in the
organ? This is, all, practically irrelevant because it is the enjoyment of music, as sound, that
is important. The overly technical is, really, not a consideration by the average listener. However,
since fluidsynth reverb has been a point of objection for us, the fact of the basic, looped wave file,
essential as an activator in MIDI, being the element whose frequency is distorted relative to
the "level" in fluidsynth reverb, the differences between virtual and actual, acoustic environments
become a considerable factor in the decay portion of the sequence.
John Beach
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-01-03 11:57
Chester and Marc-Paul,
Thank you for your posts, both expressing enthusiasm – Chester’s in anticipation (it was posted only
15 minutes after the release was announced), and Marc-Paul’s in his early sampling of what this new
jOrgan VPO has to offer (about 5 hours later).
Enthusiasm has, I think, been largely lacking from Mailing List posts for some time . It certainly
marked the early years of jOrgan, when a whole team of “hopefuls” kept up a barrage of requests for
new features to be added to a developing jOrgan program. True to pattern, an excited Sven Meier
would oblige with an astounding new delivery, to everyone’s benefit! And so it would go on.
Those days seem to be past, almost every feature one could dream for has been added, and jOrgan is
now a fully-developed program, which in my opinion is unexcelled in the VPO world, but largely under-
rated, with its impressive features ignored.
I believe it is possible for those days to be returned. Regrettably it seems it will be without Sven’s
great and inspiring ability, but I believe it can be done. It is up to the jOrgan users to realise
what a magnificent computer program we have at our disposal, and to get enthusiastic about it,
expressing it here on the Mailing List and also elsewhere. My dream is that it can be done, if
together we explore further ways in which this astonishing treasure can be used to produce more and
more exciting outcomes!
Let us try to lift our game!
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-01-03 12:09
On 2025-01-02 17:09, John Beach wrote: 'JohnR., my comments, here, concern the wording you have used
in " However, this applies to the “”held on” sounds, and no attempt has been made to reproduce the
starting sounds or any release transients.’
By, "held on" sounds, do you mean the "sustained portion" of the recording of a sample, apart from
the "starting sounds," meaning "attacks," or "any release transients?" That is, ASDR, attack,
sustain, decay and release?'
John Beach,
Thank you for your thoughts.
You are quite correct in identifying what I meant by “held on” sounds. The ASDR (attack, sustain,
decay and release) parameters are of little use to makers of VPO’s which use recorded samples.
There is one exception, and that is when jOrgan is the program being used along with sound engines
which respond to the standard soundfont MIDI messages. In our case, we do make use (successfully, in
my opinion) of the Release parameter, to produce quite realistic release sounds. This avoids the
complication of using release samples, which itself introduces technical problems which can be made
less obvious to the ear, but not actually dealt with altogether. I believe there is a method which
does seem to be successful in overcoming this, but the fact that the inventor has not gone public
with it shows, perhaps, that he thinks it is unlikely to have much appeal.
In your closing remarks you express some disquiet at the use of artificial reverberation in public
spaces where there is already significant reverberation. I agree entirely. Here in Sydney I have
attended a recital where there was a new Hauptwerk-type VPO installation in a large church. My worst
fears were realised. To my ears the sound lacked character and interest, the high frequency
components of the sound being grossly dampened to the point of inaudibility. The organ community
here seems to be quite unaware of such problems.
Let me give you another example which seems off-topic but actually is relevant. Over a year ago I
invited a young organist friend and his father to my home to hear my jOrgan installation there,
followed by a visit to the church close by where I had converted the analogue electronic organ I
built for them in 1980, to a MIDI system with a jOrgan “BROADWAY “ disposition. It uses the
Fluidsynth Version 1 Reverb, but set at a very modest level. The church is dead acoustically. They
were very pleased with what they heard in each location. In the church they asked if the organ was
being used for recitals. I realised only much later that they had come to the church mistakenly
thinking they were to hear a pipe organ. After playing it and hearing it at length, these two pipe
organ enthusiasts had not realised that it was something else!
Best wishes,
JohnR
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From Marc-Paul on 2025-01-04 03:21
Hi JohnR:
Today I got around to testing the new Romantic Harmony on Mac. I am pleased to report that it works
fine with everything I have tested so far in jOrgan 3211.
I also have a 320 jOrgan installed for testing purposes. Fluidsynth won't develop on that version of
jOrgan... however, again for testing purposes I copied the fluidsynth files from 3211 to 320 and your
disposition worked fine.
I have the Mac setup capable of 4 stereo pairs, so I will look forward to dividing the outputs to see
how it sounds.
Again... thanks for Great work John.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
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From JohnR on 2025-01-04 08:50
On 2025-01-04 03:21, Marc-Paul via jOrgan-user wrote: "I have the Mac setup capable of 4 stereo pairs,
so I will look forward to dividing the outputs to see how it sounds."
Hi Marc-Paul,
How many actual stereo pairs of amps/speakers can this drive in your present set-up?
Best wishes,
JohnR
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From Marc-Paul on 2025-01-04 09:40
Hey JohnR...
...on the Mac OS X and to current OS I use 4 stereo
pairs. I have experimented with dividing the organ up in different ways...
and since I don't usually use large registrations... I have found some good
sounding arrangements. As an example... Great Principal and Flute on
different channels... Swell or Pedal separate. I usually use one of the
stereo pairs for things that are to loud like an over aggressive mixture or
other stop.
The same go's for the Raspberry pi... 4 stereo pairs... with Jack.
I am avoiding Jack on the Mac and PC. It's just to flakey no matter how it
is tweaked. I use VB audio cables to take audio from jOrgan to Loopback
(Mac) to Element for Oril River Reverb then to 4 stereo pairs. The Oril
River vst (free) works on PC and Mac. It's the only Reverb vst I have
tested that is capable of Organ bass without problem.
As far as speakers go... I use an Edifier R-1280T powered speaker that
allows two stereo inputs so I can alternate between versions of Mac or PC
for testing. They not large.. but I actually have 5 pairs. The treble is
very accurate. I have a whole wall of speakers in the Organ room... but I
do more experimentation now days.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-01-04 11:31
On 2025-01-04 09:40, Marc-Paul wrote: "...on the Mac OS X and to current OS I use 4 stereo
pairs. I have experimented with dividing the organ up in different ways..."
Marc-Paul,
Thank you for the prompt and detailed answer. I did a search, read some reviews, and saw that the
speakers are very good value for the low cost. Also, they are available here in Australia at much
the same price, allowing for the exchange rate. Surprising. For the record, they are a powered
PAIR of speakers.
I believe two stereo pairs is sort of optimum for a domestic situation, but not to separate out
stops or even organ departments. What I would do is separate out the pitch bands: one stereo pair
would use Octaves 1,3,5,7 and the other 2,4 and 6. Octave 0 (32 Hz to 64 approx) would go to a sub-
woofer.
The advantage of this arrangement is that it greatly reduces what I call the "Problem of Audio
Summation", where sounds are added together in the one audio channel. This is the case with all
electronic organs or VPO's unless definite steps are taken to avoid the issue. What happens is
that sounds of much the same level, but slightly different pitches, produce audible "beats" which
can be very annoying. This happens also on pipe organs, of course, but because the summation is
being done in the air rather than in the one audio channel, the beats are half as obvious, and
this can be enough to transform them from an annoying wobble to a pleasant undulation.
Another reason to adopt this practice is that it reduces the amount of Intermodulation Distortion
produced in a single audio channel. This issue has been over-rated at times, because the
intermodulation is produced not only by the loudspeakers (or amplifiers) being less than perfect,
but it is also produced at quite a high level by the human hearing! I have given the loudspeakers
I use at my home console a bit of a test, and I estimate that the I.D. they produce is at much the
same level as that produced by my own hearing! So even if they were perfect, producing no such
distortion, I would still hear much that same sound.
Mainly because of time constraints, I have never actually set up this two stereo channels (four
separate channels) arrangement at home. In a public installation I would prefer to use 8 channels
(4 stereo pairs) for even greater improvement. The extra cost might mean it will not be done.
Just to clarify a little, the installation in my local church which I mentioned in a previous post
uses just the standard one stereo channel, and no-one has complained. That simply shows that we have
got used to listening to that arrangement, and we don't notice that something unnatural is happening
(beats and resultant tones are louder than usual). My wife once commented that my electronic organs
"throb a bit". So she noticed ...
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2025-01-04 16:09
Hey JohnR...
I agree completely with your reasons. I have found that I like to separate
the stereo pairs and allow the sound to mix in the room. As I get older I
still love the massive sounds... but at home playing a few things... a good
principal chorus and Pedal gives me great satisfaction.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
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From Peter Hanlon on 2025-01-05 20:36
Dear JohnR,
The Christ Child has arrived for us, and a few days later your new VPO. We are truly blessed.
I would be regarded as a casual user, but truly appreciate the hard-yakka and inspiration that
has gone into it.
God bless you, and continue to watch over you,
Peter Hanlon
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-01-06 09:09___NEWEST POST
On 2025-01-05 20:36, Peter Hanlon wrote: "Dear JohnR,
The Christ Child has arrived for us, and a few days later your new VPO. We are truly blessed ..."
Dear Peter,
Thank you so much for your beautifully-worded post, which was very welcome, as it was indeed
quite unexpected. The fact that it came from a fellow-Aussie was a bonus.
My motive in spending much of my retirement trying to improve and promote jOrgan is that, along
with other VPO programs, here is the capacity to make something available and accessible which
approaches the beauty and grandeur available from good pipe organs, even if those programs will
never actually equal it. Music and beautiful sounds are not for everyone, but for those prepared
to give their rapt attention, it can point the way to far deeper realities than the things
limited to physics and chemistry. My hope is that for many, this may trigger a journey of
seeking and finding, of loving and serving, the living God, Who I believe to be the Source of all
these good things.
Thanking you again,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From jmaher on 2025-01-07 00:28
Dear John R,
Thank you, thank you for a remarkably beautifully finished instrument. It has quickly become a
favorite. It also fits beautifully with your stated hope.
Blessings to you and yours,
John M
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-01-17 16:27
Hi all,
I have compiled and placed on Google Drive a second soundfont for the
ROMANTIC HARMONY VPO, where deliberate slight de-tuning of many notes of
the 16’, 8’ and 4’ stops has been applied. This is similar to what was
done for all of my jOrgan dispositions using recorded samples. It is an
attempt to simulate what can be heard in most pipe organs which have not
been very recently re-tuned.
As I recently remarked in this thread, electronic devices where sounds
are added together in the one audio channel can be expected to produce
undulations which are twice as deep as those produced “in the air” by
separate sound sources such as pipes, assuming that we are comparing
similar sounds. One way to avoid this effect is to multiply the number
of audio channels being used, so that much summation of the sounds is
occurring “in the air”. Even just doubling the number of channels should
be worthwhile, if care is taken in the way the sounds are routed to the
increased number of audio channels available.
As soon as I had finished the work on this de-tuned soundfont, I played
a jOrgan MIDI file using it in the ROM HARM disposition to hear how it
compared to a recording of a large pipe organ in a city church with
quite discernible reverberation (although not actually lasting all that
long). I was satisfied that there was a distinct similarity between the
two, regarding how obvious this out-of-tuness appeared to be. It is up
to the individual to decide which of the two soundfonts they would
prefer to be using, but at least this way you have a choice.
My listening test was using a jOrgan version which has the Fluidsynth
version 2 reverb. I have always been impressed by the quality of the
reverb it delivers, but I do acknowledge the considerable nuisance value
produced by the cyclic modulation, which the creators of the reverb
found was the only way they could achieve the high quality of sound they
were seeking. If we simply hold down single notes of single stops and
listen to that, it can be very objectionable. But I have found that if
instead we are using it with actual music, especially if there is that
out-of-tuneness occurring, along with the wind de-stabilizer effect
switched on, together with appropriate reverberation settings, the
cyclic modulation is nearly swamped altogether by all the other quite
random variations which can be heard.
I would value hearing the opinions of others who are prepared to compare
the use of the two soundfonts.
I have also placed on Google Drive a small mp3 recording where the new
ROM HARM disposition is using the de-tuned soundfont, with FS2 reverb
settings of Level=0.2, Damping=0.3, Room=0.8, Width=0.5.
Download link for REM_HARM_DET.sf2:
https
://drive.google.com/file/d/1KuoSMZEK0Pl911gQFYhOASoI4PpGVlB3/view?usp=sharing
Download link for reger3chor (3).mp3:
https
://drive.google.com/file/d/1A5fWrVxiQK7Aq_zlc9SsgjObxdKTLzyK/view?usp=sharing
(You will need to remove the separation following “https” to create a
viable link, which you should then copy and paste to your internet
browser address window. I am trying to avoid the use of hyperlinks in
our Mailing List posts.). Notice further that Google Drive sometimes
zips the files being downloaded, so you may need to decompress them.)
Best wishes,
JohnR
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2025-01-17 16:54
Hi JohnR:
Haven't tried the SF yet... but the Reger is lovely!
Cheers
Marc-Paul
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END OF THREAD
Best jorgan theatre organ sounds
From Andrew Wos on 2025-01-07 16:17
Hello
I played around with the freedom vtpo for a while and some of the sound samples are very good but
some sounded too ‘generic midi’ for my taste. I have the miditzer sfz files that were available to
improve its sound and loaded them in place of some of the freedom samples and was pleased. Are
there more samples of that caliber I can get somewhere for trumpet, kinura, etc?
Thanks
Andrew
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2025-01-07 17:13
Hello Andrew:
I depends on how much computer power you have... Mac, PC or RPi as to how much authenticity you can
create.
In my opinion good tremulants complicate matters in the Theater Organ world... in terms of getting
a good sound.
Miditzer is a great middle of the road instrument with the John Tay soundfont... I am assuming you
downloaded that upgrade.
If you can find someone who has Hauptwerk 4x and the Paramount 310... they were all free. Otherwise
the really good instruments cost some decent money.
I was fortunate to play the NY Paramount Wurlitzer for about 10 years and it helped me understand
what good sound meant. Of course the NY Paramount Wurlitzer had a LOT of tonal work in the Theatre
that others did not. Jesse Crawford and Dan Pape.
https://youtu.be/6eL7jZ-K4Kw?si=xb-cjc5DuLetu4lZ
Cheers
Marc-Paul
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________*
END OF THREAD
From Freeman Gilmore on 2025-01-07 16:11
John:
You wrote:
"For RPi 4 running 64-bit, click on this link and then on the .deb file:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-rpi/4.1/
For RPi 5 running 64-bit, click on this link and then on the .deb file:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-rpi/4.2 "
What is the difference between these?
Thank you, fg
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-01-17 08:47
On 2025-01-07 16:11, Freeman Gilmore asked about the difference between the RPi 4 and the RPi 5.
Freeman,
RPi 5 uses Fluidsynth version 3, and RPi 4 Fluidsynth version 2. Sven created the jOrgan version 4.2
to deal with this, just over twelve months ago.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2025-01-18 15:30
JohnR:
Recent News
Released FluidSynth 2.4.2
30 December 2024
Released FluidSynth 2.4.1
07 December 2024
Released FluidSynth 2.4.0
31 October 2024
Released FluidSynth 2.3.7
20 October 2024
Released FluidSynth 2.3.5
28 March 2024
...
Released FluidSynth 2.2.0
Posted on 02 April 2021 by Tom Moebert
Is this what you are saying:
RPi 5 uses Fluidsynth version [2.3,x] and RPi 4 Fluidsynth version [4.2.x]?
Sven created the jOrgan version 4.2 to deal with this [RPi 5] just over twelve
months ago.
[ jOrgan version 4.1 to deal with this [RPi 4].
Or does jOrgan 4.2 work with RPI 4 and 5?
Thank you, fg
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-01-18 16:27
On 2025-01-18 15:30, Freeman Gilmore wrote:
“JohnR: Does jOrgan 4.2 work with RPI 4 and 5?”
Hi Freeman,
I don't know. I only possess the RPi 4, and I know that jOrgan 4.1 works very well on it.
I was quoting accurately what I read in the Mailing List just over twelve months ago. Your research
tells me that part of what was written may not have been correct. So the precise Fluidsynth version
may not have been conveyed accurately. I have every reason to believe the bottom line: Sven created
jOrgan 4.2 so that jOrgan could be used with the RPi 5.
The moral: Don't believe every single thing you read in posts to the Mailing List. :-)
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Freeman Gilmore on 2025-01-18 17:10
Thanks John
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________*
END OF THREAD
From ken on 2025-01-27 06:15
Hi, all.
Is there a .dmg package for installing jOrgan 4.2 on Mac?
I am running MacOS Sequoia 15.2. on Apple Silicon.
Apple doesn't support installing a .deb package on Mac.
Thanks.
Ken Knollman
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2025-01-27 06:46
jOrgan for Mac OS X and beyond is 3.21.1. It works on all versions up to the current version.
It is a little tricky to install but once done works with in one restriction... which is that
if you make a change in Construct mode you must save and close jOrgan and then start jOrgan again.
It's a midi issue.
I have 3.20 up to 3.21.1 running with 5 stereo pairs output to sound cards. So far the dispositions
created in jOrgan 4x work fine.
I have detailed installation procedures previously.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-01-27 10:48
on 2025-01-27 06:15, ken wrote: "Is there a .dmg package for installing jOrgan 4.2 on Mac?"
Hi Ken,
The short answer is, No. Sorry.
However, I hope that such a version of jOrgan for Mac will be available before too long. Marc-Paul
is our expert on using jOrgan in Mac, and I suspect that he may play a role in this hope being
realised. (We haven't discussed it yet. But he won't be doing most of the work.)
At the moment, the only way for Mac users to access Fluidsynth Version 2 is by means of Qsynth and
a virtual cable. Marc-Paul has done that successfully and has written about it in posts to the
Mailing List. You can search for it in the Mailing List archive or look for the Subject Heading in
the Link lists, which also have a link to that archive:
( https://jorgan.info/link.html )
Best wishes,
JohnR
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-01-27 12:07
On 2025-01-27 10:48, JohnR wrote: "At the moment, the only way for Mac users to access Fluidsynth
Version 2 is by means of Qsynth and a virtual cable. Marc-Paul has done that successfully and has
written about it in posts to the Mailing List. You can search for it in the Mailing List archive
or look for the Subject Heading in the Link lists."
Hi Ken,
I think I have found Marc-Paul's post - in the 2nd half of 2022. The link to that is
https://jorgan.info/base/arch/l/link2022b.html#B35 . If that doesn't work (it may be slow because
of the bookmark) try removing the "#B35" and see if it now works.
The Subject Heading is "jOrgan on RPi 3B+ 4(B) running Bullseye working with Qsynth".
I warn you that Marc-Paul's success was with Raspberry Pi. I believe he is not enthusiastic about
trying to use Jack with Mac computers.
Best wishes,
JohnR
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2025-01-27 16:05
Hi JohnR...
...and thank you for looking those things up. Development of
JACK on Mac OS has stopped. Along with its implementation on Windows being
so fussy... that is why I have found alternatives.
Getting sound out of jOrgan in Mac OS is very different than PC and Rpi.
Apple seems to make a lot of changes to the OS that complicate audio
communication. Once one understands what Mac OS requires... it can be quite
rewarding.
Just for the record, once jOrgan is working on the Mac, I use VB audio
cable to move the audio to Loopback. Then I send that audio to a VST host
called Element... for hosting a reverb plugin called OrilRiver. It is the
only plugin that I have found besides native Creative SoundBlaster that can
handle organ pedal. I am working on a video/audio demo of that whole setup
and hope to post it in the near future.
Also... that same chain works in Windows 11... which means that JACK is
unnecessary.
I am dealing with multiple stereo pairs... that's why I am interested in
these things.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From ken on 2025-01-31 05:39
John, Marc-Paul, thanks for your replies.
I am running jOrgan 4.2 on a Raspberry Pi 4B with a 7" touchscreen on the organ.
This arrangement makes it difficult to build and edit the disposition, so I have been using VNC
from my Mac (large screen) to edit on the Pi.
I had been having trouble with the wireless on the Pi frequently dropping out, frustrating that
effort, so I had considered just running jOrgan on the Mac to do the edits and copying the files
to the Pi.
Unfortunately, running a down level version of jOrgan on the Mac is not going to work.
Fortunately, after googling some Pi forums, I found the solution to the wireless problem, which
is now resolved.
Kind Regards,
Ken Knollman
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-02-02 14:00
On 2025-01-31 05:39, ken wrote: 'I am running jOrgan 4.2 on a Raspberry Pi 4B with a 7”
touchscreen on the organ.'
Hi Ken,
I use a Raspberry Pi 4B, but as a desktop, along with a large monitor screen. It does almost
everything I want. But I also was having trouble with inconsistent access to the WiFi, and I
suspected the metal case I was using. I changed to a plastic, ventilated case, along with a
heatsink stuck to the CPU, and the problem disappeared completely.
Best wishes,
JohnR
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2025-02-02 15:46___NEWEST POST
On Thursday, January 30, 2025 12:40 PM, Ken wrote:' I am running jOrgan 4.2 on a Raspberry Pi 4B
with a 7" touchscreen on the organ.'
Greetings...
...have you thought about running VirtualBox on your Mac and using a some
flavor of Linux?
I use VirtualBox on Win11 for different OS's. I am going to load it on one of my Mac's and
try it out.
There are versions for Intel and Silicon Macs.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________*
END OF THREAD
From Bill Skees on 2025-02-02 04:00
If I upgrade to the latest version of Java for the Mac, will my jOrgan 20.1 still run correctly?
Thanks,
Bill
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2025-02-02 08:14
Hi Bill...
...on my Mojave Mac i5 I have been using the latest Java for
some time with no difficulties. I booted up the machine I put together to
test ElCapitan and upgraded the Java to 8 and jOrgan seems to work just
fine.
As a plus... and a test... I installed Hauptwerk 4 and it works fine also.
It usually wants Java 6. Hauptwerk 4 has a "free" edition... and a nice
basic organ.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________*
END OF THREAD
Question about MIDI CC 7 or CC11
From JohnR 2025-02-04 13:18
Hi all,
This question is related to the ROMANTIC HARMONY jOrgan VPO which I "released" last month.
I have not yet placed the web link or any details on my "shared dispositions" page, and so I
am regarding the first release as a beta version. There is an issue which I have noticed already.
It involves the use of all those stop volume controls which are on the "Settings" console, and
it concerns only the Swell stops. There is a conflict if the Swell continuous filter has the
same Control Change number (in its MPL message) as that used in all the continuous filters to
control the stop volumes. Whatever adjustment has been made to the volume of any of the Swell
stops, that setting will be "over-written" by any change made by the Swell pedal. That's what
I have discovered by accident. (It doesn't seem to work the other way: changing the volume
setting on a Swell stop does not seem to change the operation of the Swell pedal continuous
filter at all. Can anyone suggest why that is?)
However, that is not the main question for which I am seeking an answer. I need to know if
commercial Swell Pedal encoders always send CC7 messages ("Volume" in the MIDI spec.), or do they
always send CC11 messages ("Expression")? You can easily tell what is happening in your console at
home if you turn the organ on, bring on the Monitor View, select the MIDI Input option, and make
a change to the position of your Swell pedal. I need a number of people to report back, so that we
can see if there is anything like a consensus. In fact, you don't even need to go through all
those steps. A simpler method would be to turn the organ on, go into Construct mode, and see what
the MPL message is for the CC number on your Swell Pedal. The Customizer will have recorded the
number there: either 7 or 11.
Best wishes,
JohnR
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2025-02-04 17:30
JohnR., in a disposition where there are, both, Swell (Expression CC#11) and Loudness (Volume CC#7),
the MPL messages
are:
Expression
Engaging set 176 set 11 set value | mult 0.5 | add 0.5 | mult volume 127
Engaging set 176 set 99 set 120
Engaging set 176 set 98 set 8
Engaging set 176 set 6 set value | mult 0.33 | add 0.66 | mult volume 80
Change equal 176 equal 11 div 127 | get value
Volume
Engaging set 176 set 7 set volume 127 | mult value
Change equal 176 equal 7 div 127 | get value
Reference your rank, special connector and any synchronizers to the continuous filter.
The controllers are independent and will function to receive any change messages from the organ
console's physical pedals or from a .mid file, played back using a midi sequencer program and a
virtual midi cable, outputted to jOrgan, input, in jOrgan, from the virtual midi cable.
Hope this helps.
John Beach
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-02-04 20:28
On 2025-02-04 17:30, John Beach wrote: "The controllers are independent and will function to
receive any change messages from the organ console's physical pedals"
Hi JohnB,
Thank you for your reply with all its detail. But I don't think you have understood the reason
for my post. The tests which I described show that the Swell department's controller (i.e.
continuous filter) and any additional "controller" of a stop in that department are NOT
independent, if the Control Change message is the same for each. Yes, CC#7 is for Volume and
CC#11 is for Expression, as I stated in my post. My tests also indicated that ANY Control Change
number will not do. I changed "7" to *8" in one test, and nothing happened.
What you have listed is the MPL messages cluster we would expect to see in a jOrgan disposition.
I was not asking for that. I was asking what the MIDI messages are, which the MIDI encoders in
the home (or church) organs our users are familiar with are sending, when they move the Swell
pedal(s) in those organs. Are they CC#7 or are they CC#11?
CC#11 for a Swell Pedal is what they should be, according to the MIDI Specification. But it
wouldn't surprise me if many makers of MIDI encoders are using CC#7 instead. (Most "controllers"
will normally react to either 7 or 11 in exactly the same way - to control the Volume, unless
steps are taken to introduce special audio frequency attenuation characteristics - as happens in
some of Paul Stratman's most recent dispositions. I am simply running a poll, to see if there is
a clear preponderance of one of those two numbers. I shall then adjust my ROMANTIC HARMONY
disposition accordingly.
Best wishes,
JohnR
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-05 01:12
John,
I took a look at the ROM HARM dispo that you released last month. I could not find a Continuous
Filter element that has a "Change" MIDI message that would capture a physical expression/swell
pedal action. The Continuous Filter element named "Volume - Swell" (which I am assuming is the
element that is supposed to capture the MIDI input for a physical swell pedal) does NOT have the
required "Change" MIDI Message Type that would be needed to capture the swell shoe movements. In
Addition, this element's "engaging" MPL has a data-1 value of "set 7", which, if sent to the
referenced ranks, would override all the "set 7" values established by all the individual rank
volume controllers. This data-1 on the SWELL Continuous Filter should be "set 11" ... NOT "set 7".
Just because the incoming CC number of a Swell/expression pedal is 7 or 11 is of no consequence.
That 7 or 11 value would only be used by the "Change" MPL of it respective Continuous Filter to
capture the movement values of that physical swell pedal. The resulting outbound CC number going
to the referenced Rank elements would be either 7 or 11 as set by the "Engaging" MPL's data-1 value,
irrespective of the CC number of the inbound CC number of the physical swell pedal.
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2025-02-05 02:09
JohnR., sorry, I thought you meant the volume levels of the individual ranks on the alternate
page of console showing the sliders for them in your Romantic Harmony disposition. Nice job!
I have used it. I suspect that midi-equipped organs from organ manufacturers would use
controller CC#7 for volume control and CC#11 for expression. My observations about the
difference in the effect of CC#11 as contrasted with CC#7 is, still, true. CC#11 is smoother,
without the hesitations and objectionable, audible static of CC#7. This is or was an
electrical issue that was noticeable in .mid file playback, where there were abrupt changes in
volume messages. The "event list" of the .mid file could be edited to remove the changes, or
to change the volume to expression which, completely, eliminates the problem.
It will be interesting to learn what the results of your survey of users with midi organs are.
John Beach
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-02-05 12:38
On 2025-02-05 01:12, Lynn Walls wrote:'John, I took a look at the ROM HARM dispo that you released
last month. I could not find a Continuous Filter element that has a "Change" MIDI message that would
capture a physical expression/swell pedal action.'
Lynn,
Thank you for your post and for all the information it contains.
I discovered a few months ago that probably all my jOrgan VPO's based on recorded samples were
lacking that "Change" line. Since this went back quite a number of years, I wondered why it had
never been reported. Although my home console of two manuals etc. has a swell pedal, I have never
connected it up. However, close by there is my local church where I had midified the analogue
electronic organ I designed and built for them back in the late 1970's. It is still in use, but
now has the jOrgan BROADWAY disposition creating its sounds. I knew that the swell pedal there
worked, so I called in and checked the disposition details. The "Change" line was missing. I
concluded that the line was in fact not really needed. I can of course add it to those
dispositions, but it will have to take its turn on my lengthy "To do" list. Also on that list is
your MPL Tutorial, which still needs to be added to the jOrgan InfoBase.
Regarding the need for my poll, it occurs to me that if in fact some manufacturers of encoders
might have them sending swell box MIDI data calling it CC#7 (although the dispositions correctly
had their swell continuous controller expecting CC#11), we should surely have had SOME posts over
the years complaining that their swell pedal control was not working. I don't recall any. Do you
have some thoughts about this?
Best wishes,
JohnR
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-06 12:31
Hi John
I can report that Rodgers organs with MIDI send CC#7 messages by default, but can be changed to
CC#11 if required in settings.
Regards
Rick
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-02-06 15:11
Hi Rick,
Thank you very much. You are the first to report. Your answer validates my concern about some
manufacturers setting up their encoders incorrectly. If a major player such as Rodgers gets it
wrong, we can expect that there will be others.
I have, by the way, realised why there have not been complaints about jOrgan dispositions with
faulty swell pedals. Whatever the encoder sends (CC#7 or #11), the Customizer will set up the
Continuous Controller to respond to that. There will be no problem.
However, there is a problem if we employ the same CC message as does the Swell department
Controller, with the Controllers for those stops expecting the very same CC message. Even if
this happens only in 50% of cases, where the user's console Swell Pedal is sending MIDI
messages under CC#7, that is still an unsatisfactory situation. It will be very bad for
jOrgan's reputation.
I am in the process of polishing up my "official" release. There are now a few minor changes I
have felt should be made, and I intend to remove the Volume-altering Controllers from the stops
in the Swell department. Only the Swell Pedal Controller will remain active for those stops. The
Great and Pedal stops can remain as they are, as they do not share in this problem.
This is an issue also for Mark Bugeja, as I think at least one of his VPO's released last year
employed these Stop Volume adjustments. That's where I got the idea from. I have previously used
the idea for the Pedal Bourdon 16', and of course for that stop there is no conflict with the use
of the Swell Pedal.
Best wishes,
JohnR
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-06 16:19
Hi John
Glad I could help.
The second part of your findings has had me baffled, but the light bulb 💡 in my mind has just
turned on.
MIDI addressing "under-the-hood" in jOrgan shouldn't be affected by or even monitoring in any way
MIDI coming from a "Console" or external MIDI source UNLESS the Element in jOrgan is Referenced
(To/From) a "Connector" Element.
You need to check References (To/From) your Rank Adjustment Elenents, and delete the "Connector"
Element.
(Don't delete the Connector Element, only delete References (To/From) it to all Elements that are
not expecting external MIDI triggers.)
The only Elements that should Reference the Connector Element are those expecting external MIDI
messages.
I.e Keyboards/Pedalboard, Swell, Pistons and possibly Stops.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Regards
Rick.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2025-02-06 16:21
Do I hear my name being mentioned? 😂
I have two organs that might be effected: Ta' Xbiex and Siggiewi as the jOrgan version of each
was your work (J Reimer) and that of J Maher. For me you were two guardian angels with a
mission from heaven. Thank you both.
I have not had time to play the sample-sets myself as I ought to. I'm even dragging my feet at
processing the Marsa sample-set which is a very small instrument! I get a bigger kick knowing
others are interested and playing them.... or at least I hope they are. One thing is for certain -
no one has shown enough interest yet to obtain my complete version of Ta' Xbiex set, yet. This is
the one with all the tabs layout and functionality as the original instrument is. This fact,
together with the highly obnoxious idea of commercialisation of GrandOrgue by an Italian organist/
developer along the lines of Hauptwerk, has not helped nurture my motivation to do any more sample-
sets at all. However, I expect jOrgan to be positively impacted by the so-called developments in
GO and HW (and there are others) since jO will remain the only free software with free sample-sets
in existence. GO's loss will be jO's gain. All the other software require connection to the
internet, an iLok account and regular paid subscriptions in order to play the sample-sets even
after having paid a lot of money for the software and more for each sample-set. It's as ridiculous
as having to pay a fee each time you need to open the door of your car and drive it even after
having paid good money to buy the car and more for the fuel it needs to run.....
I may have transgressed..... but this is all the more reason to keep jOrgan alive and strong,
correcting things that need to be corrected.
I have had no feedback on my latest sample-sets either way so I cannot provide any information to
help. Whilst I have followed most of the posts on the matter, I must admit I am not sure I do grasp
the essence of the problem enough to make my own tests.
What should I be looking for? Is it problems with how the swell pedal works or sounds or is it swell
stop settings?
What should I do to the sample-sets to "correct" whatever it is to be corrected? Would it be
deletion of MPL messages or changing set=7 to set=11?
I look forward to further replies on the subject.
Regards,
Mark
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-02-06 17:09
On 2025-02-06 16:19, RickW wrote:"You need to check References (To/From) your
Rank Adjustment Elements, and delete the "Connector" Element."
Hi Rick,
Thank you very much. It is gratifying when another jOrgan user responds to a request and gives
it serious thought. I know I use a lot of words in my posts, but I hope that none is actually
superfluous to the discussion.
I think you will find that any Stop Volume continuous filters references FROM the Connector have
been deleted. I was aware of this need, but my 85 year-old (memory)is finding it hard to get
everything right first go.
Best wishes,
John
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-07 00:30
John,
There is no need for you to remove the Volume-altering Controllers from the individual ranks
in the Swell department. They are using CC 7 and they SHOULD be using CC7. The only change you
need to make is to modify the "Volume - Swell" Continuous Filter to use "set 11" as its data-1
value in its "Engaging" MPL instead of "set 7".
It was the use of CC 7 in the Swell controller's "Engaging" MPL that was overriding the CC 7 of
the individual rank controllers. Changing the Swell controller to CC 11 removes this conflict
and allows the individual rank controllers to do what you originally intended them to do.
REMEMBER, CC 7 and CC 11 NEVER conflict with each other: the true volume level of each MIDI
channel is always the product of its current CC 7 value times its current CC 11 value.
In MPL terms: (final volume level) = (CC 7 data-2 value) X (CC 11 data-2 value)
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-07 00:38
Oh! And by the way...Don't forget to add a "Change" MPL to the "Volume - Swell" Continuous
Controller so that the user may configure/attach an external, PHYSICAL expression/volume pedal
to operate it. As it stands, it can only be operated with the computer mouse or a touch-screen
display.
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-07 00:57
John,
Removing the Stop (rank) Volume references from the Connector does not really do anything
FUNCTIONALLY. Those controllers could never have been modified by an incoming physical volume/
expression pedal anyway because none of them had a "Change" MPL.
Removing them from the Connector simply removes a superfluous reference that was not doing
anything anyway.
However, if you ever want the Rank controllers to be operable by some kind of physical MIDI
"box of volume knobs/sliders", you will have to add "Change" MPLs to each of them and
re-Reference them back to the Connector.
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2025-02-07 04:38
Hi Lynn,
In this image which I have uploaded, you will notice that I changed the set 7 to set 11 in
Engaging message for the Volume - Swell as you recommended.
What is the message that would need to be introduced for Change?
set 176, set 7, set value | mult 0.6 | add 0.4 | mult volume 127? - or -
set 176, set 11, set value | mult 0.6 | add 0.4 | mult volume 127?
Mark
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-07 07:52
Mark,
First of all, you need to determine two pieces of information about the MIDI messages produced
by your physical expression/volume/swell pedal.
You need to know the MIDI channel number specified in it's MIDI messages, and you need to know
the controller number (7, 11, or whatever) specified in its MIDI messages. Please note that an
expression/volume/swell controller does not necessarily HAVE to use MIDI channel 0 or CC 7 or
CC 11. It may use ANY channel number from 0 to 15 (although channel 0 is most common). And it
may output ANY controller number in the range of 0 to 127 (although CC 7 and CC 11 are most
common). The use of either CC 7 or CC 11 is really mandatory ONLY for outbound MIDI messages
(specified in the "Engaging" MPL) going to the sound source (synth, fluidsynth, etc.), simply
because most sound sources only accept CC 7 and CC 11 for volume control.
Anyway, the format of the "Change" MPL that you ask about is:
equal 176+c, equal x, [normalization computations] | get value
where "c" would be the MIDI channel number used by your physical controller, and "x" would be the
controller number (7, 11, or whatever) that the physical controller uses.
For example, if your physical controller outputs its MIDI messages on MIDI channel 0 using CC 7,
then the appropriate "Change" MPL would be:
equal 176, equal 7, [normalization computations] | get value [i.e., 176 + 0 = 176]
If your physical controller outputs its MIDI messages on MIDI channel 15 using CC 11, then
the appropriate "Change" MPL would be:
equal 191, equal 11, [normalization computations] | get value [i.e., 176 + 15 = 191]
And if your physical controller outputs its MIDI messages on MIDI channel 4 using CC 121, then
the appropriate "Change" MPL would be:
equal 180, equal 121, [normalization computations] | get value [i.e., 176 + 4 = 180]
NOTE #1: [normalization computations] refers to a string of MPL computations that would be
necessary to recompute (adjust) the data-2 value produced by the physical controller into a
range of values acceptable to the associated "Engaging" MPL.
You would never use the computational sequence: "set value | mult 0.6 | add 0.4 | mult volume 127"
as shown in your "Change" MPL example. The MPL "set" operator is only appropriate for outbound
MIDI MPL -- or in some MPL situations where you want to store an intermediate computational value
in an arbitrary variable.
NOTE #2: I only refer to MIDI channel numbers from 0 to 15 -- NOT from 1 to 16 -- because the MPL
in jOrgan requires all channel numbers to be specified in the 0-15 range...which is the actual
channel number range used in actual MIDI messages. The use of MIDI channel numbers in the 1-16
range only appears in various forms of documentation meant for human consumption, probably because
humans are told that a MIDI device can accommodate 16 MIDI channels, and thus customarily think of
them as being numbered 1 through 16.
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Mark Bugeja on 2025-02-07 08:35
Thanks Lynn. What if the swell pedal is plugged into one of the keyboard and using the listen
(record) option in the customiser?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-07 10:04
Can I just add, there is a third Unique identifier for these Swell messages we are discussing,
and for any other MIDI Message.
DEVICE, the MIDI Device, Channel, and CC Number are all part of the "address".
A MIDI message can be on the same MIDI Channel and use the same MIDI CC Number, but if it comes
from a different MIDI "Device" it will be interpreted as "different" from another of the same
Channel and CC Number.
Regards
Rick.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2025-02-07 12:29
That is why there is the "Enumerate Devices" option under MIDI in Configuration / Properties
(View Menu) .... which should be checked to make it easier to identify each identical device,
one from the other.
Mark
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-07 17:09
That is only needed if you have multiple devices with the same device name.
Without setting Enumerate Devices, multiple devices with the same name are hidden under one Device
entry, and the others are unable to be selected and used in jOrgan.
On Fri, 7 Feb 2025, 11:30 am Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote:
‘That is why there is the "Enumerate Devices" option under MIDI in Configuration / Properties
(View Menu) .... which should be checked to make it easier to identify each identical device,
one from the other.’
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 01:36
On 2/6/2025 4:35 PM, Mark Bugeja wrote: 'Thanks Lynn. What if the swell pedal is plugged into one
of the keyboard and using the listen (record) option in the customiser?'
Irrelevant. Whether the swell pedal is a free-standing MIDI device or is connected to and routed
through a keyboard, its MIDI output is still a stream of Continuous Controller (i.e., 176) messages.
You still have to configure it the way I described in my previous post. jOrgan's "Customizer" only
helps you to configure Keyboards (Note On/Note Off MIDI messages). All other forms of MIDI input
must be accommodated by entering "Construct" mode and manually configuring the appropriate elements.
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 01:53
On 2/6/2025 6:04 PM, RickW wrote:
'Can I just add, there is a third Unique identifier for these Swell messages we are discussing,
and for any other MIDI Message.
DEVICE, the MIDI Device, Channel, and CC Number are all part of the "address"...'
Rick,
There is no entity in jOrgan known as the "address". The MIDI DEVICE is not part of the MIDI
message data in any way. At best the MIDI device name is simply an indicator of where the MIDI
message stream is coming from. It's sort of like the name you give to the water faucet. The
water faucet (e.g., the MIDI device) may be named "HOT" or "COLD", but its only function is to
produce a stream of water (e.g., MIDI message stream). The temperature of the water (e.g., MIDI
message content) is a particular attribute of the water -- not of the faucet.
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-08 08:01
But the streams of data from different "devices" never mix.
The identical MIDI Message (Channel and Message) from two different Devices is seen as different
messages.
If it not "Connected" to the correct Device, it will be ignored.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 08:42
On 2/7/2025 4:01 PM, RickW wrote:
'But the streams of data from different "devices" never mix’.
Not normally, anyway.
‘The identical MIDI Message (Channel and Message) from two different Devices is seen as different
messages.
If it not "Connected" to the correct Device, it will be ignored.'
...just as two identical MIDI messages from the same device are different messages.
Of course, different Devices produce their own individual streams of MIDI messages. The reason
they are never confused (mixed) in the MIDI stream seen by a given Continuous Filter element is
because that a particular target element (Continuous Filter) is usually referenced from only ONE
Connector element and therefore sees only the MIDI messages from that ONE MIDI Device specified
in the Connector's properties.
Although I have never tried it: I would imagine that if a particular Continuous Filter element
were to be referenced from more than one Connector element, it would see the mixed MIDI stream
from all the Devices specified by all those referencing Connector elements. And, additionally,
it (the Continuous Filter) would NOT be able to distinguish which MIDI messages came from which
Device (Connector).
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Marc-Paul on 2025-02-13 05:50___NEWEST POST
Hi JohnR:
My Allen 605 has all but quit working in terms of the "computer board
components". I have been using a midi adapter that was custom made for this
generation of Allen for some time... and fortunately it works fine. It
pulls the Allen proprietary multiplexing and converts to standard midi. I
disconnected the Crescendo pedal and mechanically slaved it to a Yamaha
resistive pedal which goes to an Anatek Pocket Pedal. Both the
Keyboard/Pedal midi data and Expression Pedal midi data go into the Anatek
Pocket Pedal. The two streams come out in a traditional midi cable which
goes into a midi interface to the computer via USB. I use that for jOrgan
without difficulty. Also Hauptwerk recognizes that data on CC11 Expression.
My computer midi interface has multiple outputs so I can send midi via
Bluetooth into some other device for experimentation... for example an iPad
running some kind of organ or piano.
Cheers
Marc-Paul
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________*
END OF THREAD
Enumerate option
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 02:05
On 2/6/2025 8:29 PM, Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote:
'That is why there is the "Enumerate Devices" option under MIDI in Configuration / Properties
(View Menu) .... which should be checked to make it easier to identify each identical device,
one from the other.'
I have found that the "Enumerate Devices" option is useful only when jOrgan is being run in a
Linux/Pi system. If running jOrgan in a Windows system, this option is redundant because all
MIDI devices are already uniquely named.
Worse: if you turn on "Enumerate Devices" in a Windows system, jOrgan appends a unique number
to each device name. Then if you happen to unplug one of your MIDI devices (keyboards,
controllers, etc.) from a USB port or re-plug it into a different USB port, the Windows MIDI
device name stays the same, but jOrgan may re-enumerate all the attached MIDI devices and assign
them different unique numbers than they previously had. When this happens, you end up with all
your MIDI devices having different names due to the appended unique number that has been changed.
So then, you have to reconfigure all your jOrgan Connector elements to accommodate the changed
"re-enumerated" MIDI device name scheme.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-08 08:10
On Sat, 8 Feb 2025, 1:06 am Lynn Walls wrote:
‘I have found that the "Enumerate Devices" option is useful only when jOrgan is being run in a
Linux/Pi system. If running jOrgan in a Windows system, this option is redundant ...’
This is not the case.
My own jOrgan setup (now on Windows 11, but started this problem with Windows 8.1) simply will
not function without the MIDI Enumerate function activated.
My 3x identical USB MIDI keyboards all show up in Windows Device Manager as listed items with the
same name.
In jOrgan, without Enumerate MIDI devices activated, only 1 keyboard shows in the available devices.
The others are not able to be linked, and there is no way to know which keyboard you have lucked
into linking.
The Device Name is a very important aspect in connecting MIDI Devices.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-02-08 08:22
On 2025-02-08 02:05, Lynn Walls wrote: "if you happen to unplug one of your MIDI devices
(keyboards, controllers, etc.) from a USB port or re-plug it into a different USB port, the
Windows MIDI device name stays the same, but jOrgan may re-enumerate ... "
Fortunately Rick has warned about this problem when using Windows, in his tutorial on the use
of "Enumerate". The link to this tutorial is prominently shown on the "Enumerate" page of the
jOrgan InfoBase. I plan to include a mention on the FAQ page of the jORGAN DISCOVERY website.
Best wishes,
JohnR
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 08:51
OK, I'll grant that identical device names can appear in Windows. I have had only one situation
where two identical MIDI devices (LaunchPads) were connected to a Windows 10 system, and Windows
gave them unique names. But jOrgan's annoying re-enumerating phenomenon that I described
previously still occurs if you unplug and replug your MIDI devices into different USB ports.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 09:06
Also, the Enumerate Option's renumbering issue would not be so annoying if jOrgan only appended
the unique-ifying number to only the devices it finds with identical names. But when the Enumerate
option is enabled, it attaches that unique number to every MIDI device -- even the already uniquely
named ones -- which only aggravates the re-numbering problem.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-08 09:58
On Sat, 8 Feb 2025, 7:44 am Lynn Walls wrote:
“if a particular Continuous Filter element were to be referenced from more than one Connector element,
it would see the mixed MIDI stream from all the Devices specified by all those referencing Connector
elements. And, additionally, it (the Continuous Filter) would NOT be able to distinguish which MIDI
messages came from which Device (Connector)."
Yes, that is likely what would happen.
I have helped a friend with a very customised jOrgan setup where it has been necessary to have two
Connector Elements in the Disposition.
It is critical to name them in a meaningful way so as not to get them confused when linking
References.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-08 10:05
The MIDI Merger function in jOrgan, similar to Omni used in other MINI software is a way to get
MIDI streams from two different devices to Mix.
I don't personally see an application for this in a contemporary MIDI set-up with mainly USB-MIDI
devices.
Understanding how different MIDI Devices keep their MIDI streams separate is important in a
complex console set-up.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-08 10:12
On Sat, 8 Feb 2025, 8:07 am Lynn Walls wrote:
“Also, the Enumerate Option's renumbering issue would not be so annoying if jOrgan only appended
the unique-ifying number to only the devices it finds with identical names. But when the
Enumerate option is enabled, it attaches that unique number to every MIDI device -- even the
already uniquely named ones -- which only aggravates the re-numbering problem.”
The Enumerate function is for Devices that use Windows generic MIDI Driver. These don't provide
unique Device Names, and don't provide a way to create a unique Name.
If your set-up doesn't have any identically named devices, then I can see there is no need to
use the function and that it would be annoying in the way it operates.
I don't know how many jOrgan users we have lost buy having this function off by default.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 11:20
On 2/7/2025 5:58 PM, RickW wrote:
"I have helped a friend with a very customised jOrgan setup where it has been necessary to have
two Connector Elements in the Disposition.
It is critical to name them in a meaningful way so as not to get them confused when linking
References."
Yes. It's a good idea to append the Device names of both the Input and Output properties to the
Connector's Name property. That way you can see at a glance exactly which MIDI Devices that a
given Connector element is handling.
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 11:27
On 2/7/2025 6:05 PM, RickW wrote:
"The MIDI Merger function in jOrgan, similar to Omni used in other MINI software is a way to get
MIDI streams from two different devices to Mix.
I don't personally see an application for this in a contemporary MIDI set-up with mainly USB-MIDI
devices.
Understanding how different MIDI Devices keep their MIDI streams separate is important in a complex
console set-up."
I agree. I have never seen a situation where you would need to merge two or more MIDI Device
streams into one stream.
I can imagine that if you had more than one keyboard/console setup and wanted to play either one
or the other through the same jOrgan disposition without having to reconfigure jOrgan, you might
want to merge the corresponding keyboards of each console into a single MIDI stream. Of course,
you would only be intending to play only one of the keyboard sets at a time.
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________*
END OF THREAD
Using customizer to detect/set messages for swell shoe
From Ron on 2025-02-04 13:48
I have been slowly working on my own jOrgan set up. Our organ at church is down and serviceman
can’t get there this week. I’m going to try to take my setup to fill in with. How do I properly
detect swell shoe messages? Everything I have done winds up with a bunch of jiggle when I move
the shoe. I’m I using an LED and photo resistor with a mechanical shield between them salvaged
from a Hammond spinet. Obviously not a dirty contact with this setup. It bounces around and
eventually reaches the right setting, but it is far from smooth. I want to get it working before
Sunday. If it would be better to manually add a change message please lead me along. Sunday will
be here soon! Thanks!
Ron Biddle
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-02-04 15:46
On 2025-02-04 13:48, Ron wrote: "How do I properly detect swell shoe messages?"
Ron,
If it "eventually reaches the right setting", that suggests to me that you have already used
the Customizer correctly to detect the swell shoe messages.
The routine is
1. Click on File, then on Customize.
2. Get to Page 3, select the MIDI device from the options (click scroll arrow at right).
3. Click in the Volume "Change" cell.
4. Move the swell shoe somewhat.
That's all.
Your description of what happens suggests that if it settles down eventually then the movement
of the swell shoe is somehow transferred to some part of the set-up which is sensitive to
movement, such as wiring connections or whatever. Can you look at the jOrgan MIDI Monitor View
(Input and not Output) and see if the listing of MIDI messages after moving the swell shoe gives
any sort of a clue?
I assume that the photo resistor is part of a voltage divider getting its source voltage from
the encoder, so ruling out any possibility of an excessive D.C. voltage being present ...
Best wishes,
JohnR
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2025-02-04 18:05
Ron,
the volume CC#7 is not smooth in the same way that expression CC#11 is smooth. This has been
a problem since its inception. It is best to use expression to vary loudness during actual
playing. This is much more effective and avoids the problem of incremental, graduated
(sequential nodes that are handled as start1-stop,start2-stop,start3-stop by the Volume CC#7
controller) where you hear the static in the sequences of change because of the midi messages
being sent as the pedal is depressed. It would seem that this problem could have been
corrected, but apparently, it is the action of the pedal rotating a variable resistor and the
electrical-value changes, plus and minus, being input as midi data to the sound/audio output
and the process is simply not smooth with the Volume CC#7.
John Beach
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________*
END OF THREAD
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 01:53
On 2/6/2025 6:04 PM, RickW wrote:
'Can I just add, there is a third Unique identifier for these Swell messages we are discussing,
and for any other MIDI Message.
DEVICE, the MIDI Device, Channel, and CC Number are all part of the "address".'
Rick,
There is no entity in jOrgan known as the "address". The MIDI DEVICE is not part of the MIDI
message data in any way. At best the MIDI device name is simply an indicator of where the MIDI
message stream is coming from. It's sort of like the name you give to the water faucet. The
water faucet (e.g., the MIDI device) may be named "HOT" or "COLD", but its only function is to
produce a stream of water (e.g., MIDI message stream). The temperature of the water (e.g., MIDI
message content) is a particular attribute of the water -- not of the faucet.
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-08 08:01
But the streams of data from different "devices" never mix.
The identical MIDI Message (Channel and Message) from two different Devices is seen as different
messages.
If it not "Connected" to the correct Device, it will be ignored.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-08 08:10
On Sat, 8 Feb 2025, 1:06 am Lynn Walls wrote:
"I have found that the "Enumerate Devices" option is useful only when jOrgan is being run in a
Linux/Pi system. If running jOrgan in a Windows system, this option is redundant ..."
This is not the case.
My own jOrgan setup (now on Windows 11, but started this problem with Windows 8.1) simply will
not function without the MIDI Enumerate function activated.
My 3x identical USB MIDI keyboards all show up in Windows Device Manager as listed items with the
same name.
In jOrgan, without Enumerate MIDI devices activated, only 1 keyboard shows in the available devices.
The others are not able to be linked, and there is no way to know which keyboard you have lucked
into linking.
The Device Name is a very important aspect in connecting MIDI Devices.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From JohnR on 2025-02-08 08:22
On 2025-02-08 02:05, Lynn Walls wrote: "if you happen to unplug one of your MIDI devices
(keyboards, controllers, etc.) from a USB port or re-plug it into a different USB port, the
Windows MIDI device name stays the same, but jOrgan may re-enumerate ... "
Fortunately Rick has warned about this problem when using Windows, in his tutorial on the use
of "Enumerate". The link to this tutorial is prominently shown on the "Enumerate" page of the
jOrgan InfoBase. I plan to include a mention on the FAQ page of the jORGAN DISCOVERY website.
Best wishes,
JohnR
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 08:42
On 2/7/2025 4:01 PM, RickW wrote:
'But the streams of data from different "devices" never mix.
Not normally, anyway.
The identical MIDI Message (Channel and Message) from two different Devices is seen as different
messages.
If it not "Connected" to the correct Device, it will be ignored.'
...just as two identical MIDI messages from the same device are different messages.
Of course, different Devices produce their own individual streams of MIDI messages. The reason
they are never confused (mixed) in the MIDI stream seen by a given Continuous Filter element is
because that a particular target element (Continuous Filter) is usually referenced from only ONE
Connector element and therefore sees only the MIDI messages from that ONE MIDI Device specified
in the Connector's properties.
Although I have never tried it: I would imagine that if a particular Continuous Filter element
were to be referenced from more than one Connector element, it would see the mixed MIDI stream
from all the Devices specified by all those referencing Connector elements. And, additionally,
it (the Continuous Filter) would NOT be able to distinguish which MIDI messages came from which
Device (Connector).
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 08:51
OK, I'll grant that identical device names can appear in Windows. I have had only one situation
where two identical MIDI devices (LaunchPads) were connected to a Windows 10 system, and Windows
gave them unique names. But jOrgan's annoying re-enumerating phenomenon that I described
previously still occurs if you unplug and replug your MIDI devices into different USB ports.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 09:06
Also, the Enumerate Option's renumbering issue would not be so annoying if jOrgan only appended
the unique-ifying number to only the devices it finds with identical names. But when the Enumerate
option is enabled, it attaches that unique number to every MIDI device -- even the already uniquely
named ones -- which only aggravates the re-numbering problem.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-08 09:58
On Sat, 8 Feb 2025, 7:44 am Lynn Walls wrote:
"Although I have never tried it: I would imagine that if a particular Continuous Filter element
were to be referenced from more than one Connector element, it would see the mixed MIDI stream
from all the Devices specified by all those referencing Connector elements. And, additionally,
it (the Continuous Filter) would NOT be able to distinguish which MIDI messages came from which
Device (Connector)."
Yes, that is likely what would happen.
I have helped a friend with a very customised jOrgan setup where it has been necessary to have two
Connector Elements in the Disposition.
It is critical to name them in a meaningful way so as not to get them confused when linking
References.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-08 10:12
The Enumerate function is for Devices that use Windows generic MIDI Driver. These don't provide
unique Device Names, and don't provide a way to create a unique Name.
If your set-up doesn't have any identically named devices, then I can see there is no need to
use the function and that it would be annoying in the way it operates.
I don't know how many jOrgan users we have lost by having this function off by default.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 11:20
On 2/7/2025 5:58 PM, RickW wrote:
"I have helped a friend with a very customised jOrgan setup where it has been necessary to have
two Connector Elements in the Disposition.
It is critical to name them in a meaningful way so as not to get them confused when linking
References."
Yes. It's a good idea to append the Device names of both the Input and Output properties to the
Connector's Name property. That way you can see at a glance exactly which MIDI Devices that a
given Connector element is handling.
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Lynn Walls on 2025-02-08 11:27
On 2/7/2025 6:05 PM, RickW wrote:
"The MIDI Merger function in jOrgan, similar to Omni used in other MINI software is a way to get
MIDI streams from two different devices to Mix.
I don't personally see an application for this in a contemporary MIDI set-up with mainly USB-MIDI
devices.
Understanding how different MIDI Devices keep their MIDI streams separate is important in a complex
console set-up."
I agree. I have never seen a situation where you would need to merge two or more MIDI Device
streams into one stream.
I can imagine that if you had more than one keyboard/console setup and wanted to play either one
or the other through the same jOrgan disposition without having to reconfigure jOrgan, you might
want to merge the corresponding keyboards of each console into a single MIDI stream. Of course,
you would only be intending to play only one of the keyboard sets at a time.
CLW
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Roy Radford on 2025-02-08 19:40
I'm pretty well out of the loop these days, haven't played or played with jOrgan for several years
now but my setup uses three M-Audio keyboards which I set to different MIDI channels and merge
using MidiMerger. I normally leave it switched on because re-starting is a bit of a pain,
involving re-establishing MidiMerger each time.
Have fun,
Roy. (UK)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From RickW on 2025-02-09 09:57
Hi Roy
With the "Enumerate MIDI Devices" function, that has been in jOrgan for close on 10 years now,
you don't need to set your keyboards to different MIDI Channels.
You can turn your keyboards off and have them come back on all at default MIDI Channel 1, and
not need to go into the keyboard settings every time you power them up, to change two of them
to different MIDI Channels.
In Settings MIDI, tick Enumerate MIDI Devices. I think you then need to restart jOrgan.
In the Customizer you will select each different "Device" from the dropdown list for each
Manual/Division in your Disposition. Each item in the list will now have a "#" and a unique digit.
You just need to test which one needs to be in each position.
Once done, you won't need to change anything again, unless you unplug your USB cables and put
them back in different sockets.
Regards
Rick.
On Sat, 8 Feb 2025, 6:41 pm Roy Radford wrote:
"I'm pretty well out of the loop these days, haven't played or played with jOrgan for several
years now but my setup uses three M-Audio keyboards which I set to different MIDI channels and
merge using MidiMerger. I normally leave it switched on because re-starting is a bit of a pain,
involving re-establishing MidiMerger each time."
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From John Beach on 2025-02-09 16:23
My current jOrgan set up includes 3 keyboards and pedalboard. All the keyboards are USB and they
are identified exactly by Model name and number in jOrgan. Two are Nektar, one an SE61 and the
other SE49. The third is an Acorn Masterkey 61. Acorn was purchased by Nektar and the keyboards
are nearly identical, except for color. They, all, are connected via a USB Hub 4>1. The
pedalboard is an old Hammond organ, 25-note pedalboard that I modified using a 32-note kit from
Midiboutique and uses a Yamaha UX-16 USB-MIDI cable. I have never had a single problem with
jOrgan recognizing each keyboard and the division to which it is assigned ...
John Beach
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Roy Radford on 2025-02-09 19:27
Thanks for the tip, Rick though, as I said, I'm not really active in jOrgan these days.
Have fun,
Roy. (UK)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________*
END OF THREAD