jOrgan-User Link

(Mailing List Recent Archive)

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PAST ARCHIVES (Click to access)

2022 Jan-Jun_____2021 Jul-Dec







jOrgan website for new users___Sticky Post

Raspberry Pi two monitors___By Freeman Gilmore___Newest post on 2022-11-27___3 replies

No sound___By Freeman Gilmore___Most recent post on 2022-11-04___11 replies

Setting stops with MIDI___By Jan Hartmann___Most recent post on 2022-11-03___10 replies

Sound modelling article___By John Beach on 20222-11-02

Stepped CC message control of Swell___By RickW___Most recent post on 2022-09-22___6 replies

jOrgan info and jOrgan Wiki not working___By RickW___Most recent post on 2022-09-18___9 replies

Proper reverberation defined___By John Beach_on 2022-09-02

Dr. Mark's Balzan on the RPi 3B+ (32bit)___By Marc-Paul__ Most recent post on 2022-08-28___11 reply

Midi Soundbank preset-correlation and mapping___By John Beach_on 2022-08-27

Fluidsynth Version 2 and jOrgan___By Dr. Mark Bugeja MD___Most recent post on 2022-08-27___3082 replies

Posts of Reply's do not get to List___By Marc-Paul__ Most recent post on 2022-08-25___2 replies

Windows 11 issues___By Marc-Paul on 2022-08-25

MIDI devices and mini KeyPads vs different Organ software___By Dr. Mark Bugeja MD___Most recent post on 2022-08-23___9 replies

jOrgan on Ubuntu Studio 22___By Marc-Paul___Most recent post on 2022-08-22___3 replies
 
Linux recommended Distribution?____By Marc-Paul_on 2022-08-20

Windows vs other___By Dr. Mark Bugeja MD___Most recent post on 2022-08-20___18 replies

jOrgan and FS___By Steve___Most recent post on 2022-08-14___1 reply

Pipedreams on the Auditorium Organ___By Marc-Paul on 2022-08-14

Raspberry Pi Issues___By Marc-Paul_Most recent post on 2022-08-17___2 replies

Fluidsynth Reverb LEVEL___By John Beach___MoMost recent post on 2022-08-06___10 replies

Fluidsynth SoundFont Discussion___By John Beach___Most recent post on 2022-08-06___3 replies

RPi "no valid disposition"___By Marc-Paul___Most recent post on 2022-08-05___10 replies

Dispositions w/qsynth Raspberry, Windows, Mac___By Marc-Paul___Most recent post on 2022-08-01___13 replies

Downloading to Raspberry Pi3 +____By Gavin Kieser____Most recent post on 2022-07-30____5 replies

Fluidsynth Reverb Problem of Amplitude modulation (Fluidsynth 2.0 with
 
jOrgan 4.0 Beta 1 64-bit)____By John Beach____Most recent post on 2202-07-28____11 replies

Qsynth____By John Beach____Most recent post on 2022-07-26____3 replies

Warning Message re Java Version____By John Beach_____Most recent post on 2202-07-13_____34 replies

Mac OS 12.5 on M1 processor     By Marc-Paul____Most recent post on 2022-07-12____1 reply

Issue with java_____By Pascal Collet_____MMost recent post on  2022-07-11_____4 replies

Warning Message from Raspberry Pi 4B_____By JohnR____ Most recent post on 2022-07-11_____2 replies

Issues    By David Riggs    Most recent post on 2022-07-01    8 replies



















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jOrgan website for new users



From JohnR

This website has been created to make it easier for internet users to discover jOrgan and to start using it. Its main pages are HOME, STARTING, ADDING, GALLERY, F.A.Q., THIS SITE and CONTACT.

The web address is https://jorgan.info

JohnR

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Issues          

From David Riggs on 2022-06-30 12:32

Hello,
I've been a member a few years now and, have had issues resolved by our kind and helpful 
members so, here is new one I hope for suggestions with.
I have to organ manuals that I am in the process of converting to midi. Being on a tight 
budget, I opted for to encoder bundles from midi boutiques. After wiring one manual and 
plugging in everything, it works as should except, if I press more than one key at a time.
At that point, both notes continuously cut in and out very quickly, almost giving a vibrato 
effect.
If I play a five note cord, the notes stop playing altogether. This all is being displayed 
on the virtual keyboard as well, the notes cutting in and out and notes playing with a 
large chord.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-06-30 14:11                              

Hi David...
             ...I have a Rodgers 605 that I gutted and am in the process of using 
Midi Boutique's hardware as well. 

It matters what kind of wiring system you are using.  (Buss keying etc.) In general 
it sounds to me as if a scan line is not getting a clear signal... be it from a diode 
bad or loose or shorted solder joint on a scan line. 

Do you understand how multiplexing works? 

What I would do is peg down a couple keys with something and very carefully flex the 
wiring harness to see if the problem moves or goes away. 

Short of that... checking the power supply to make sure it is between the voltages 
suggested... 5v and 8v I think.  That's a place to start. 

Let us know what happens.
Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________  

From Lynn Walls on 2022-07-01 01:41

I agree with Marc-Paul...It seems like a diode matrix problem.  What MODEL of MIDI encoder 
did you buy?  And what is the manufacturer/brand name and model of your keyboards?  Do the 
keyboards output one-for-one contact points? or are all key contacts wired internally to a 
8X8 diode matrix (scanmatrix)?

If the MIDI encoder expects scanmatrix input pins, then the keyboards must have scanmatrix 
output lines.

If the MID encoder expects one-for-one (one pin per keyboard key), then the keyboards must 
NOT have scanmatrix output: rather, they must have one output contact line/pin per keyboard 
key (plus one common, of course).

CLW

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From David Riggs on 2022-07-01 02:33

It seems like it was a voltage issue. I have two power supplies that I thought would work,
I didn't buy new because of that.

I DID order one from midi boutiques when I ordered the stop encoder. I tried it and, works 
flawlessly!

I am no electrician but, the only difference from to the other on the label is, my old ones 
out out 1.0A. The new one puts out 0.5 A. Apparently that's difference.

Thank you for the help!
Guess I'll be ordering two of those now.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-01 06:54                          

David Riggs wrote: "It seems like it was a voltage issue."

Hi David,

Your photos sent as attachments made your post too big to get through. However, I have been 
able to see them, as well as the actual text of your post. I have reproduced your post (above), 
without the photos.

The two power supplies you are holding are both 12V. output. The difference in power capacity 
should make no difference in this application.

We need more clarification. What voltage does the encoder need? And you really should explore 
what Marc-Paul and Lynn have indicated.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-01 09:28                      

The power supply on the Midi Boutique site is this:

output:12V, 1000mA DC, 12W max.

The HWCE2 midi encoder specs say:
...on-board diode bridge and voltage regulator - just apply 9-12V AC/DC from
adaptor or battery

This board can use an external  diode matrix or an external single contact
hookup board... depends on the keyboards you are using.

 Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From David Riggs on 2022-07-01 11:21

The adapter I bought from them to power the stop encoder, says the following
Input 100-240 volts-0.5A max 50-60 hz
Output +12 volts-0.5 A
Output power 6w max

I have switched back and forth three times between this and the old adapter. 
The above gives me no issues and the old one, every time.
I am using  manuals with buss bars and diode matrix. 
The only difference that I read, is the output voltage. The old being 1A and the new 0.5A
The old one doesn't list the output power which, is listed at 6 watts max for the new.

Thanks for your help

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-01 12:23

David Riggs wrote:"The only difference that I read, is the output voltage. The old being 
1A and the new 0.5A"

Hi David,

I assume you mean that this is what the label says in each case, and that you are not 
referring to the use of a voltmeter. If all the adapters are working correctly, then they 
will be supplying an output voltage of +12 volts D.C. . The "1A and 0.5A" are simply 
referring to what CURRENT the adapters are capable of supplying without the 12 volts 
being unduly affected - namely up to (but not exceeding) 1 amp or 0.5 amp.  ("Amp" is 
short for "Ampere".)

Since you are having problems with the "old" adapter and not the "new", it seems that 
there may be something wrong with it. You will only know this by placing a voltmeter 
across its output terminals and seeing what the reading is - preferably without the 
encoder connected and then with the encoder connected. As I have already said, in this 
particular application the output current RATING is not likely to be important, as the 
encoder is not likely to require currents as high as both adapters are supposed to be 
capable of supplying. In fact you should notice that the adapter which is not 
satisfactory is rated as being able to supply 12 volts at twice as much current as the 
adapter which IS working! This leads me to suspect that there is something wrong with it.

There is something else you can try, if the leads or connectors (if any) allow it. Try 
using the new adapter with its output connected to the keyboard encoder AND the stop 
encoder at the same time. I would anticipate that it is capable of supplying enough 
current for that to be O.K. If you find you have no problems, then you have no need 
to buy an additional adapter!

Please report on what result you get.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-01 14:29                      

If your issue is fixed... then the adapter that does not work may be failing under 
load... or passing AC thru to the board.  The frequency of the AC may interrupt the 
scan matrix. 

The 1A is 1 amp... meaning Current.  0.5 is half an amp.  Generally read by an amp probe.
The 12v is volts.... Generally read by a meter. 

I just hope its working for you!
Cheers
Marc-Paul                               MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Mac OS 12.5 on M1 processor 

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-10 09:05                              

Greetings to all: 

I have just completed an installation of jOrgan 3.21.1 (w/fluidsynth) on a Mac Mini 
running the OS Monterey 12.5 with the M1 processor. 

Everything works as expected.
I am testing dispositions but expect no problems. 

I am looking forward to the Beta of Mac OS Ventura. 

Regards
Marc-Paul
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-12 15:38

Marc-Paul wrote:"I am looking forward to the Beta of Mac OS Ventura."

Hi Marc-Paul,

Thank you for your ongoing support of MAC users who wish to try out jOrgan.

Best wishes,
JohnR                           MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Warning Message from Raspberry Pi 4B 

From JohnR on 2022-07-11 17:26

Hi all,

If I use a command line to run jOrgan, I get the following message appearing 
in the Terminal after opening a disposition:

"fluidsynth: Using PulseAudio driver
WARNING: An illegal reflective access operation has occurred
WARNING: Illegal reflective access by spin.off.AWTReflectDispatcherFactory 
(file:/usr/lib/jorgan/lib/spin-1.5.jar) to method java.awt.EventDispatch
Thread.pumpEvents(java.awt.Conditional)
WARNING: Please consider reporting this to the maintainers of 
spin.off.AWTReflectDispatcherFactory
WARNING: Use --illegal-access=warn to enable warnings of further illegal 
reflective access operations
WARNING: All illegal access operations will be denied in a future release"

I repeated the exercise with jOrgan set up to use alsa instead of pulseaudio, 
and got the same warning message but without the opening line "fluidsynth: 
Using PulseAudio driver".

Does this mean that we may lose the use of Raspberry Pi for jOrgan, in a later 
update of the OS?

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-07-11 18:46

JohnR wrote:"Does this mean that we may lose the use of Raspberry Pi for jOrgan, 
in a later update of the OS?"

Hi John,

these warnings are generated by recent Java versions:

jOrgan uses some old API calls that are no longer encouraged to be used, 
for now we can just live with these warning.
We will find a solution for future Java version too.

This has nothing to do with fluidsynth's audio driver.

Regards
Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-11 20:39                                  

Sven Meier wrote: "these warnings are generated by recent Java versions"

Hi Sven,

Thank you very much for the explanation, and the reassurance that the matter 
can be dealt with when necessary.

Best wishes,
JohnR                                   MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Issue with java                    

From Pascal Collet on 2022-05-30 19:17
 
Dears,

I was running jOrgan 3.21 (32 bits) on a portable PC running Windows 10 Pro 
with JRE 1.8.  Since a few weeks, jOrgan and organ dispositions (no log) doesn't 
work anymore. It seems that SSD is accessed a few time and after this nothing happens.
So, I have try a few times to uninstall jOrgan and JAVA and reinstall JAVA and 
then jOrgan without success.  Having a look at the task manager without success, 
trying to look in the MMC that contains nothing (need a settings ?).

Could you give me some guidelines to fix this issue.

Pascal
BE-Rixensart

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-06-03 08:23          

Pascal Collet wrote:
"I have try a few times to uninstall jOrgan and JAVA and reinstall JAVA and then 
jOrgan without success."

Hi Pascal,

Your problem may be a 32/64 bits mismatch, or or some reason the Java has become 
version 11. jOrgan 3.21 will not work with Java 11, but 3.21.1 will.

I suggest you look at Apps & Features and see if there is a version of Java still 
installed. If there is, all you should need to do is install a matching version of jOrgan.

I also suggest that you follow the instructions on installing Java and jOrgan which 
are found on the STARTING page of the jORGAN DISCOVERY website ( https://jorgan.info ).

Make sure that Java is installed before you install jOrgan.

Please report on your progress.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Pascal Collet on 2022-06-15 17:20

Hi,

Thanks to recent messages, I could find the error log and extract that information.
Could you go ahead with this ?

Regards
Pascal 
 
'---------
juin 11, 2022 8:50:33 AM jorgan.bootstrap.Bootstrap start
SEVERE: bootstrapping failed
java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException
at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke0(Native Method)
at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(Unknown Source)
at sun.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Unknown Source)
at jorgan.bootstrap.Main.<init>(Main.java:31)
at jorgan.bootstrap.Bootstrap.start(Bootstrap.java:39)
at jorgan.bootstrap.Bootstrap.main(Bootstrap.java:48)
Caused by: java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
at jorgan.App.main(App.java:76)
... 7 more
Caused by: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Malformed \uxxxx encoding.
at java.util.Properties.loadConvert(Unknown Source)
at java.util.Properties.load0(Unknown Source)
at java.util.Properties.load(Unknown Source)
at bias.store.PropertiesStore.<init>(PropertiesStore.java:61)
at jorgan.spi.ConfigurationRegistry.<clinit>(ConfigurationRegistry.java:44)
... 8 more
-----------------------------------------------

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-06-15 18:41

Pascal Collet wrote:
"Hi,
Thanks to recent messages, I could find the error log and extract that information.
Could you go ahead with this ?" 

Hi,

could you send me the file .jorgan/jorgan-XX-XXX.properties please?
It seems to have an illegal character contained in it ... I wonder how that happened.

Then you can try deleting that file and restart the application.

Best regards
Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Pascal Collet on 2022-07-11 21:54                  
 
Hi Sven,
Sorry for the late reply (have had some holidays). 
When having a look in the user folder .jorgan/jorgan-XX-XXX.properties; 
i have explored other folders and in ./jorgan/  folder  there was a file  
"jorgan.....lck", look like locked ?
Delete the file and I could start the application again.  The issue didn't 
come again (making the daily tasks on this PC, only used for VPO).

Regards
Pascal                                  MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Warning Message re Java Version

From JohnB on 2022-07-12 11:54

Recently, I upgraded my organ PC from an HDD to an SSD.  On installing Windows 10 
and migrating programs, I got a notification that there was a newer version of Java, 
and I allowed the upgraded version to install. jOrgan would not run with the latest 
version, and the message, "this version of jOrgan (jOrgan 4.0 Beta 1 64-bit) requires 
Java 1.7.0.,"  and I reverted back to it.    I, still, get the notification of a 
newer version of Java being available, but I disregard it.

John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-12 14:13                  

JohnB wrote: "I got a notification that there was a newer version of Java"

Hi John,

To respond to your report we probably need a bit more information:
1. What version of Java was this newer one?
2. What version are you now using?
3. What is the full name of the xstream  .jar file which is listed last in the 
   C: \Program Files\jorgan\lib\ folder?

Best wishes,
JohnR

P.S. Note that I have altered the Subject Line to correspond with the subject matter.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-07-12 17:12

JohnR., I am using Java version,  jre1.8.0_331, on my  work PC, and the full name of 
the xstream-1.4.11.1.   The latest version that is offered by automatic notification 
is the version 8_333 update.
I had the problem on my organ computer and did not want to waste time. However, since 
I got the message from the jOrgan program that the version (4.0 Beta 1, 64-bit) that 
I have been using for several years "requires Java 1.7.0,"  and I had, manually, 
downloaded and installed that and saved the JRE file, in case I needed to re-install it, 
I reverted to it, and have no problem with jOrgan running as it should.
I don't usually have any problems with JRE updates and was surprised when I got the 
"This version of jOrgan requires Java 1.7.0."

John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-13 08:48                                          

Hi John,

Thank you for that information, and also for the expanded information in the email 
you sent me. I too prefer to download Java installers and do it manually, as this way 
I know what I am getting, and as I leave it in my Downloads folder, it is always easy 
to re-install using it, should that be necessary (as you have done). And like you, 
I usually ignore Java notifications to update.

Still, it is disturbing that the Java 8_333 update is causing the jOrgan version you 
are using to fail. Are you able to identify the app.log error file in your user folder, 
copy it and include paste it into a reply post?

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnB on 2022-07-13 11:26                          

JohnR wrote: "it is disturbing that the Java 8_333 update is causing the jOrgan version 
you are using to fail."

JohnR., I believe it has something to do with the fact that Windows has not had a chance 
to download all the security updates and any newer builds of the operating system since 
the installation of the original 2015 Windows 10 build that I had on a CD.   Since jOrgan 
runs fine with the JRE 1.8_221, and the JRE 1.8_331 is the one that it would not run under, 
I believe the problem is a Windows problem.

Tomorrow, I will let the organ PC update to see whether that takes care of the problem.  
I will, also, try to remember to check the app.log error file in the user folder and copy 
and paste it into a reply post.

Thanks.
John Beach                      MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Fluidsynth Reverb Problem of Amplitude modulation (Fluidsynth 2.0 with jOrgan 4.0 Beta 1 64-bit) 

From JohnB on 2022-07-22 23:42                  

Previously, I observed that the problem of amplitude modulation in Fluidsynth 
occurred at any LEVEL setting above 0.09, using a counter instead of a slider for 
the REVERB filter.   Again, as with the variable effect of the interrelationship 
of tuned circuits where the value of one part affects, or is affected by, the 
individual values of the other parts, the same is true for Fluidsynth Reverb.

For example, if ROOM and WIDTH are, arbitrarily, given values of 1.0, and DAMPING is, 
also, set to 1.0, the problem of amplitude modulation is eliminated, if only one stop 
or organ voice is engaged. As soon as more than one stop of the same footage is engaged, 
the problem is apparent, at those settings.   This seems to be related to the "loop cycle" 
of the steady state of the wave file in the soundfont.

This problem is, also, apparent if the same settings for "synth" Reverb in Polyphone are 
used, and the effect is more, annoyingly, noticeable at the higher frequencies of wave 
files used in the treble octaves above midi note number 72, (a 1-foot pitch, 523Hz 
frequency) and above.
 
I believe I have, in prior postings, expressed a wonder concerning whether the Fluidsynth 
developers were aware of, or concerned about this problem of amplitude modulation and 
whether anything can be done about it or if anything is, actually, being done about it.  
I think it deserves, at minimum, an explanation of the technical reasons why the problem 
occurs, and whether, or why,  it may not be remediable.
 
I have wondered, also, if the wave file loop is responsible for this problem, whether 
there is an optimal length (seconds) of a wave file for all frequencies from 16 Hz (32-foot 
stop) to 8372 Hz, which is, approximately, the highest frequency we would, normally, be 
dealing with in the soundfont specification.   Klangsynth is limited to the production of
one-second wave files.  Sample Set Creator allows for the specification of lengths up to 
8 seconds, and, of course, wave files can be edited for length in Audacity.
 
For those members of jOrgan who have Creative Labs soundcards, (personally, I have an 
Audigy 2 ZS on my work PC and my organ PC has an Audigy RX 5.0), the EAX Reverb in the 
Audio Console App that comes with both of the above-mentioned soundcards is a solution 
to the Fluidsynth Reverb problem.  You don't need Fluidsynth Reverb elements in any 
disposition if you have the EAX Reverb console.

The effect does not occur, and this is what convinces me that the problem is one in the 
Fluidsynth software rather than that it is related to any soundfont parameters or the 
length of wave files. 
 
I would be interested to know whether others, who have Creative Labs soundcards,  
have experienced the same results.   If so, there must be a solution to the problem in 
the software of Fluidsynth.....
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-23 01:32

Thanks John for  really clear thoughts on the matter of Reverb.
 

I've spent more time experimenting with Reverb than I should have over the years... 
simply because a little good reverb makes the practice seem more pleasurable.
 

My analysis is a little different... most likely because I also do chamber music 
recording and produce CD masters for which I use Sony Sound Forge Pro.  A tremendous 
effort goes into making the "hall" sound real.
 

As far as the organ goes... I have always attributed the unhappy sound in fluidsynth1 
to phase cancelation.  That's simply what is sounds like to me.
 

Qsynth with fluidsynth 2.2.1 seems much better... because I can use the same procedure 
that I use on EAX to achieve a good reverb.  In terms of procedure,  I select Principle 
stops w/mix and use a short key press and listen to the reverb.  In my mind I listen to 
high, medium and low pitch and adjust the highs out until it sounds realistic to me.  
Then I use a pedal Principal chorus to do the same thing and adjust the low frequency 
reverb until the "room" carries the bass.  The advanced EAX is superb.
 

The problems on the Mac are different because there does not seem to be a soundcard 
external that does a good job of EAX.  So I decided to search for plugins and after a lot 
of testing... settled on ELEMENT from Kushview with the Oril River Reverb plugin.  
Complicated to set up but so worth it.
 

The only test I can think of at this point for fludisynth... is to use two instances of 
fluidsynth... one for reverb only out thru two separate speaker systems and the other 
dry... to see if the problems you describe are still there.
 

To put is simply, Advanced EAX can make you think you are in the Hall or Theatre of your 
dreams.  Fluidsynth is just not there yet.  But consider the price.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-23 21:19

JohnB and Marc-Paul,

I believe that Fluidsynth is now released as Version 2.2.7, and I assume that this is somewhat 
later than what jOrgan 4.0 has. Indeed, I read that in FS 2.1.0 there was a new reverb engine, 
and that chorus became "stereophonic". I have no idea where this relates to jOrgan 4's 
Fluidsynth version.

Marc-Paul, I seem to recall that earlier this year (?) you mentioned in a post that you used 
Qsynth to control Fluidsynth while using jOrgan. But I also believe that with MAC computers 
(which presumably you were using), jOrgan does install Fluidsynth along with the user being 
able to adjust the Fluidsynth parameters via Properties. Can you confirm this, and can you 
describe just how you use Qsynth while using jOrgan? I am particularly interested in how we 
can use jOrgan along with, say, the latest Fluidsynth version, just to try out whether the 
reverb is at last acceptable.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-24 09:29

These downloads are available for Qsynth:

qsynth-0.9.7-51.4.x86_64.AppImage

qsynth-0.9.7-51.4.win-x64-setup.exe

qsynth-0.9.7-51.4.rncbc.suse.src.rpm

qsynth-0.9.7-51.4.rncbc.suse.x86_64.rpm

qsynth-0.9.7.tar.gz

Here is where they are:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/qsynth/files/qsynth/0.9.7/

Install and start Qsynth.  The first instance starts by default "Qsynth1".
Click on "Setup".  The first tab is MIDI, select your "MIDI Device" (will
change later) and Bank Select mode, etc.  Click the Audio Device dropdown
and select yours.  Click "Soundfonts" and navigate to its location.  Click
OK to restart the engine.  Add another instance by hitting the "+" and load
same/another soundfont.

Start jOrgan.  Replace instances of fluidsynth with "Generic Sound".  For
the output of Generic Sound... use something like loopMIDI to connect to
Qsynth.  So if you want Gt, Sw, Ped, then make three instances of loopMIDI
and in Qsynth also.  Reboot Qsynth and jOrgan and in construct mode... in
the Generic Sound output select the loop midi port that connects to the
soundfont in Qsynth... which is also set in Qsynth: the instance selected,
Setup, MIDI tab, Midi device.

So jOrgan outputs midi data (Generic Sound) via loopMIDI (free software) to
its soundfont in Qsynth... which gives Gain, Reverb and Chorus for each
instance of a soundfont.  As a bonus click on the Channels and see the midi
data coming in to Qsynth and Stop Names for selected instance.

The last paragraph seems the most clear in terms of MIDI data path.  Three
"Generic Sound" elements in jOrgan for Gt. Sw. Ped as an example.  Three
loopMIDI paths to Qsynth.  Three soundfonts hosted in Qsynth. That receive
MIDI data via loopMIDI from jOrgan.

Clear as mud... right?
 
I made a small disposition from the enhanced Jeux soundfont and it works
fine.  I will clean it up a bit and make it available to experiment with.

Cheers
Marc-Paul  

P.S. I was using jOrgan 3.21beta3 on PC

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-24 11:40

Marc-Paul wrote:"These downloads are available for Qsynth"

Hi Marc-Paul,

Thank you for all that detail. You may have already told us, but does installing 
Qsynth automatically install the latest version of Fluidsynth with it, or do we 
have to install Fluidsynth separately?

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-24 12:49

I only know about Mac and PC... but yes... it's in the install.
Download and enjoy.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Graham W on 2022-07-24 14:20                       

I don't know if folk are aware that the reverb engine in fs was replaced in v2.1.0. 
Freeverb was replaced by a Feedback Delay Network engine. I would suggest you install 
the latest version of fs over the top of your install.

Regards
Graham

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-24 21:51

Qsynth currently uses:  FluidSynth 2.2.6

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-07-24 23:41

Marc-Paul said:"Qsynth currently uses:  FluidSynth 2.2.6"

Do we, still, have to wait for an update to the portaudio/dsound backends in order to use 
new releases of fluidsynth in jOrgan?   I have downloaded them from sourceforge, the link 
from the jOrgan.info site, and the one I am currently using is 2.2.3 Win 10_x64, which 
must be a couple of versions old and, thus, outdated.  Are newer releases of Fluidsynth 
usable with jOrgan portaudio/dsound ALL, without any changes to the latter? 
 
John Beach              

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
From John Beach on 2022-07-27 11:26             

I have found the optimal configuration and settings for Qsynth with jOrgan.  
My initial mistake was in thinking that there had to be one instance of Qsynth 
for each soundfont in the disposition.  This was not necessary, and, in fact, 
did not work.  

So, I setup the Qsynth1, configured for Input driver, winmidi, 
and output to  Loopbe Midi and opened the soundfonts of the disposition on the 
soundfont tab in Qsynth.   In jOrgan, I deleted the four reverb elements and 
Qsynth handled the reverb via the virtual midi cable.  The problem of amplitude 
modulation is not apparent using Qsynth.   The version of Qsynth is 6.1.1. and 
the version of Fluidsynth (in Qsynth) is 2.2.1 .  

Perhaps, it is my own subjective hearing, but I find the sound quality to be 
subdued or ever so slightly muffled using Qsynth.  However, the control of
the reverb effect is much better using Qsynth than the elements in jOrgan.  
Again, for those having Creative Labs soundcards and EAX, the reverb effect is the 
best of all.

Thanks to Marc-Paul and JohnR. for their input on this topic.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-27 13:45                      

This sounds really good JohnB,
 

I would like to ask which audio interface you are using… as I seem to be getting 
a little cleaner sound out of WASAPI than dsound.

Thanks
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-07-28 01:25

 
I was a bit hasty in thinking I had found optimal settings for Qsynth.  I was deceived 
by the fact that, in the soundfonts tab of Qsynth1, the number to the left of the 
soundfont name is a MIDI CHANNEL number, NOT a RAM bank number.  In jOrgan, a keyboard 
is an organ division and is assigned a fixed,  MIDI CHANNEL number, (regardless of the 
fact that it may be "floating" in playback of a midi file due to the polyphony 
considerations).  The fact is that a soundfont's presets are assigned as ranks/stops to 
different divisions (keyboards).  Apparently, Qsynth does not handle the output from 
Loopbe virtual midi cable  in the same way that jOrgan does with respect to the 
recognition of the numbered presets in the soundfont. 
 
In my use of jOrgan, I output the Channel/track messages from an external midi sequencer 
program, playing a .mid file, assigning the MIDI Channel numbers to the individual tracks 
of the .mid file for the divisions in jOrgan (Swell=1, Great=2, Choir=3, Pedal=4, Solo=5, 
Echo=6) via Loopbe, inputting to jOrgan, which, in turn, outputs the organ disposition 
sounds using dsound to audio output to the soundcard speakers.  Soundfont bank numbers 
in jOrgan are fixed, (in my most frequently-used disposition, there are 13 soundfonts, 
3 of Flutes, 2 of diapasons, 2 of Mixtures, 2 of Reeds and 2 of Strings, 1 of Percussion 
and 1 of Environment sound=blower).    While divisional midi channels are consistent in 
jOrgan with presets assigned to a division, the concept of MIDI CHANNELS relative to 
Soundfont presets is not assignable in Qsynth and, therefore, is not handled accurately.  
Of the four bank types, gm, gs, mma, and  xg, mma seems to be the one that would be 
applicable to the non-standard bank/preset composition of user-made organ soundfonts.   
How Qsynth handles this, I do not know, but I do know that the sounds that I am supposed 
to get are not what Qsynth is playing.
 
I have gone to the following website for guidance 
https://wiki.cdot.senecacollege.ca/wiki/Quick_%26_Simple_-_Setting_up_Jack_Server_and_Q-synth  
but I have not been able to find any advice on configuring Qsynth to do what I need to.
 
As I said before, Creative EAX works beautifully for me and, unless I can manage to configure 
Qsynth to work with multiple soundfonts, accurately, I will forego attempting to use its reverb 
as a substitute for jOrgan's fluidsynth reverb elements.
 
Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
 
John Beach                      MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *





















































Fluidsynth Version 2 and jOrgan

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-27 20:32             

Hi all,

Whilst trying to keep up with the posts on this forum, I have taken a back seat 
position for a while. Soon retiring from my profession and I hope to participate 
more, God willing.

I note that the latest FS is v 2.2.8. How does one incorporate this into jOrgan? 
The file structure of the package apparently does not allow a simple "drag files 
and folders into and replace" the lib folder or fluidsynth folder in jOrgan.

Has this latest FS been tested by anyone? It is several version beyond what you guys 
seem to discuss. I think the latest version discussed here has been 2.2.1.

Regards,
Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-28 01:18

Greetings Mark...
                                 ...the only way I have been able to use Fluidsynth 2.2.6 
is as contained in Qsynth.  That's what our most recent discussions have been about.
 

I have successfully... and JohnB has successfully used Qsynth as the soundfont host and that 
also gives us  access  to better reverb controls.
 

Its not much of a job to setup Qsynth from jOrgan.  Let us know if you want a procedure.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-28 01:49

Thanks for your offer to help out.

FS is the engine that has been used almost exclusively with jOrgan and done so easily, 
without much fuss and without third party software as intermediary. Is this no longer 
possible with the latest versions?

It would be interesting to see what has improved with version 2.2.8 compared to previous 
(e.g. 2.2.6 that you mention) and whether we would need to complicate matters at all by 
having to resort to using Qsynth or any other software.
 
Even from the sample-set creator's point of view, and I am one such person, the simpler 
the task, the easier it would be to adapt my 4 main sample-sets and possible future ones 
to jOrgan. Using sf2 fonts is already a headache for me and I have had to delegate the 
work to others in the past, familiar with sf2 versus using wav files directly.

As a last resort, I suppose knowing how to use Qsynth would be useful. I have never 
downloaded it let alone experimented so I am dealing with a piece of software that is 
entirely new to me.... another little adventure into unfamiliar territory. I hope there 
are no tigers hidden amongst the bushes... 😂 As I wait for that final call from the 
Almighty, I am realising I tend not to be so inclined to learn new complicated things 
preferring a day out in the Sun on a sandy beach instead. Keeping my lines busy will not 
stop that call getting through sooner or later!

In shorter words, I hope it can be kept simple to sustain my interest.

Mark
(Maltese Historic Pipe Organs)
http://mhpo.epizy.com

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-28 05:02

PS.... I hope that my bit of humour came through from my post successfully.... 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-28 05:07

Indeed... I would love to spend a day on a sandy beach in the shade sipping mint julips! 

But alas... there are no beaches here and I don't drink anything but coffee and iced tea... 
which makes me a different kind of two fisted drinker. 

HA HA HA... my attempt at humor. 

Sorry for the diversion.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

  ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-28 06:18                  

John Beach wrote:"Sorry for any confusion I may have caused."

Sven,

It seems to me that, with due respect and gratitude to Marc-Paul and John Beach for the time 
they have spent discussing the use of Qsynth with jOrgan, the best way forward is to bring 
out new versions of jOrgan which bundle the latest version of Fluidsynth with its improved 
reverberation. Is this something you will be able to do for us before long?

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-07-28 12:49

JohnR., if the newest version of Fluidsynth is packaged  in new releases of jOrgan, 
will there be a need to update the portaudio/dsound backends that have been done by 
Graham Goode?

I have simply downloaded the new version of Fluidsynth and unzipped it, changed the 
name of the folder to "default" and, after deleting the previous, inserted it into 
the Fluidsynth folder in the "lib" folder of jOrgan.

John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-28 15:16

John Beach wrote: "JohnR., if the newest version of Fluidsynth is packaged in new 
releases of jOrgan, will there be a need to update the portaudio/dsound backends 
that have been done by Graham Goode?"

Hi John,

I have no idea, but given the disaster area the backends became with whatever changes 
Microsoft made when they brought out Windows 10, I am not hopeful. All you can do is 
try them as they stand. As far as I know, they have not been updated since Windows 8 
was released.

Regarding the second matter, I congratulate you on your resourcefulness. The question is, 
does it work, allowing you to assess the "new" reverb?

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-07-28 18:47

JohnR.,  it was not really "resourcefulness," at all.  I think you mistook the Fluidsynth 
release version  with the Fluidsynth portaudio backend, this latter of which is the folder 
whose name is changed to "default" and inserted in the Fluidsynth folder of the jOrgan 
installation.  As to the individual parts of the "bin" and "lib" folders which are 
original with the Fluidsynth release version and which may be included in the 
Portaudio/dsound backends for jOrgan, I have no idea, or how they may be modified for 
jOrgan. A comparison of the files in the different "bin" and "lib" folders does not give 
a clue, so I am thinking that the backends which are created for jOrgan are not a simple 
substitution of readily identifiable files that are, already, in the Fluidsynth release 
version.  So, you are correct that Sven will have to include the changes from Fluidsynth 2.2.8 
and, my guess is that Graham will have to do the creation of the portaudio/dsound backends, 
since jOrgan releases do not include those.

One thing I find a bit confusing is the fact that any installation of jOrgan, even a separate, 
duplicate version, installed under a different identification number (jOrgan3211, for example, 
as contrasted with jOrgan40Beta1) will look for the most recently used disposition, and when 
opening that disposition, will NOT use the constituent parts of jOrgan from the version which 
opened it, rather defaults to all the referenced parts that are in the disposition, per se.  
That is, if you wanted to test the installed version of Fluidsynth, you can't do it because 
the disposition references the parts of jOrgan from the version with which it was edited, 
jOrgan 40Beta1 with Portaudio backend, as compared with a new installation of jOrgan 3211 with 
the packaged Fluidsynth without the portaudio backend. You can do it if you use  the packaged 
example files in the disposition folder of the newer installation.   That fluidsynth-example 
file is the version that is packaged with the jOrgan release.

John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-07-28 20:58

Hi,

I don't have any Windows system running anymore.

If someone can adjust the default backend definition 
https://github.com/svenmeier/jorgan/blob/master/jorgan-fluidsynth/lib/win/amd64/backend.xml
we can use it for future Windows releases for jOrgan.

There are plenty of other backends for inspiration here 
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/fluidsynth/

You can download the fluidsynth release from 
https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/releases/tag/v2.2.8

Best regards
Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-07-29 00:54

backend.xml
(~1 KB)
Sven, CAVEAT LECTOR,  attached is a copy of the backend xml edited to reflect 
the changes in Fluidsynth 2.2.8.  I assume that some changes must need to be made 
to the portaudio.dll in the default folder of fluidsynth, because editing the 
backend (xml)  and making the latest substitutions to the versions of .dll files 
in the Fluidsynth "default" folder of the lib folder of jOrgan, ( from Fluidsynth 
2.1.0_PA-ALL a64) on starting jOrgan (4.0 Beta1 in Windows 10 64-bit) failed to 
show the dsound or portaudio drivers or soundcard output options and, also, 
failed to load any of the soundfonts of a regularly-used disposition.   Or, does 
this indicate the fact that Fluidsynth 2.2.8 is not installed in jOrgan?
Needless to say, I made a backup of the original portaudio default folder for 
Fluidsynth and the original works as it should.  I was being an amateur.......

John Beach

ATTACHMENT:

FluidSynth - PortAudio_ALL (64-bit) contents: · FluidSynth 2.2.8 release built with 
DSound and PortAudio (64-bit) · PortAudio 19 built with ASIO, WASAPI, and WDM Kernel 
Streaming (64-bit) · GLib 2.0 ASIO is a trademark and software of Steinberg Media 
Technologies GmbH. ASIO Interface Technology by Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH.
 
This version of Fluidsynth is released under the GNU Lesser General Public License 
version 3 2.2.8 Graham Goode (ggoode.sa@gmail.com) 
libintl-8.dll 
libglib-2.0-0.dll 
libgthread-2.0-0.dll 
portaudio_x64.dll 
libfluidsynth-3.dll 
Gnome library 
http://developer.gnome.org/glib/ gnome_24.png Fluidsynth 
http://fluidsynth.sf.net fluidsynth_24.png PortAudio 
http://www.portaudio.com portaudio_logo_24.png ASIO 
http://www.steinberg.net Asio_logo_24.png

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-29 06:48

Sven Meier wrote:"You can download the fluidsynth release from
https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/releases/tag/v2.2.8"

Hi Sven,

Thank you for your reply. It is the case that my post was really about releasing versions 
of jOrgan which bundle the latest Fluidsynth version, rather than getting the backends to 
work. I note that in your words which I have quoted above, you are addressing that matter 
to some extent. My question is, What are we supposed to do with that easily-downloadable 
release? Is there a simple answer to that question?

John Beach in his latest post speaks of doing what he is attempting, as an AMATEUR. This is 
another way of saying that he does not really know enough to be confident of his actions, 
and in this he is speaking for me and for most of us in the jOrgan community. I know of 
only two members of this community who have the necessary knowledge: yourself and Graham 
Goode. I imagine that there are a few others who probably have enough technical background 
to master these things with very little effort, but they have not offered to help us out 
with the backend problems or with new jOrgan releases.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-07-29 11:35

Hi John,

I was writing about adjusting the *default* backend, which comes bundled with jOrgan.

In you jOrgan installation there should be a folder lib/fluidsynth/default:

- delete every file inside this folder *except* backend.xml
- put the contents of the fluidsynth distribution into the folder
- list all .dll files in the backend.xml
- *make sure jOrgan works fine with the new fluidsynth version*

It seems fluidsynth is now coming with portaudio support by default, so update <name> and <description> too.

Send me the folder and I'll exchange it in our source repository github.com/svenmeier/jorgan

*Then* well have to find someone to build a new jOrgan release for Windows.

Regards
Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-29 17:17

On 29/07/2022 09:09, Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote to Sven in an email:

"Dear Sven,

I am providing a link for the default folder with the changes you proposed, 
and as I understood them.
https://mega.nz/file/C2B2DTxC#_tMHXe1bQPDB6M00xAg2HNHFdVOEAeFKkzx4VP7IYpo

As I stated, it did not work at least for me using jOrgan 4.0beta1. Maybe I'm 
doing something wrong.

Regards,
Mark"

I tried again. Now it worked.... but I am not sure there is an improvement over 
what it was before. Perhaps others could look into the matter and use the folder 
I created.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-07-29 17:44

Thanks Mark,

that looks like a good start.

Note that we only need the files from fluidsynth inside the /bin subfolder.

It seems I was mistaken and there isn't portaudio support built-in actually :(.
I probably looked inside the wrong zip yesterday (i.e. the custom backends on 
sf.net/p/jorgan) .
Could others try this out and give their feedback? Does it run for you? Is there 
any noticeable improvement at all?

Best regards
Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-07-29 18:43

Dr. Mark,  I downloaded your "default" and the backend.xml looks almost exactly like 
the one I sent to Sven, but I did not edit the top line which was original with the 
portaudio backend that Graham Goode had written.  The problem I see, in both cases, 
is that there is no mention of a portaudio.dll file which, I believe, is where the 
dsound/portaudio driver issue must be resolved and which must, also, address the 
subject of audio output devices, unique to each user's system hardware configuration.  
So, I think it is, absolutely, essential that some combination of the files from the 
new version of Fluidsynth 2.2.8, and the content of the various portaudio backends 
that are available for download must be made in order for the fluidsynth sound,  
dsound/portaudio/waveout audio driver selection to be available in jOrgan (4.0Beta1) 
and the available audio output hardware choices to be presented in the dropdown 
window of jOrgan fluidsynth sound. 

Either the portaudio.dll file must be updated or I have not, properly, done the 
edition of the backend.xml.  As I told Sven, I do not have the knowledge or 
experience to open the portaudio.dll file and edit it in Notepad++.  So, unless 
there is someone else on the forum who can do that, I think Graham Goode will have 
to make the necessary changes. 
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-29 18:48                     

Hi John B,

I too am completely clueless.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnB on 2022-07-29 19:25

 
Sven, I made a clean, new install of jOrgan 4.0 Beta1 and modified the original 
backend.xml to 2.2.8, leaving the all the files in the fluidsynth>default folder, 
exactly, as they were installed.

Then, I made a substitution of the installation libfluidsynth-2.dll with the new 
Fluidsynth 2.2.8  libfluidsynth-3.dll, making the change in the backend.xml.  
I changed nothing else in the dll files.  On opening jOrgan, there was no listing 
of dsound driver choices or audio output hardware choices.  I substituted the other 
dll files from the bin folder of the new Fluidsynth 2.2.8 and that made no difference 
on opening jOrgan.  I, still, did not get a driver or audio output choices.  
Apparently, the problem lies in the new Fluidsynth 2.2.8  libfluidsynth-3.dll file 
with respect to the dsound driver.
No soundfonts load without the driver.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-07-30 01:05                     

Since the issue of the audio driver in Fluidsynth sound is not resolved with the 
libfluidsynth-3.dll file, I am assuming that this is an issue that must be addressed 
(as per the info on the link below) that
this is an application (jOrgan) developer issue or option, not done by Fluidsynth 
developers.
 
https://www.fluidsynth.org/api/CreatingAudioDriver.html
 
Perhaps, the above will be of help.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-31 21:07                                                       

Using a Windows 10 laptop (Home version, I think), I have just tried to use Mark's default folder with 
jOrgan 21.1.1 (64-bit). I would have preferred to do it with jOrgan 4.0 Beta…   but when I ran that, 
without the "new" default folder, it presented "Fluidsynth failure". However, the same thing happened 
with jOrgan 21.1.1, which played a disposition, with sound, before I substituted the new default folder. 
At this point there was "Fluidsynth failure".

Here is the error log:
Jul 31, 2022 8:28:18 PM jorgan.Version log
INFO: jOrgan null
os.arch = amd64
os.name = Windows 10
os.version = 10.0
java.home = C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.8.0_321
java.version = 1.8.0_321
java.runtime.name = Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment
java.runtime.version = 1.8.0_321-b07
user.dir = C:\Program Files\jOrgan
user.home = C:\Users\r
user.country = AU
user.language = en
user.name = r
Jul 31, 2022 8:28:18 PM jorgan.gui.LAF install
INFO: setting look and feel 'com.sun.java.swing.plaf.windows.WindowsLookAndFeel'
Jul 31, 2022 8:28:28 PM jorgan.fluidsynth.Fluidsynth <clinit>
INFO: native failure
java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: 
C:\Program Files\jOrgan\lib\fluidsynth\default\bin\libfluidsynth-3.dll:
Can't find dependent libraries
    at java.lang.ClassLoader$NativeLibrary.load(Native Method)
    at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadLibrary0(Unknown Source)
    at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadLibrary(Unknown Source)
    at java.lang.Runtime.load0(Unknown Source)
    at java.lang.System.load(Unknown Source)
    at jorgan.util.NativeUtils.load(NativeUtils.java:54)
    at jorgan.fluidsynth.windows.BackendManager.loadLibraries(BackendManager.java:99)
    at jorgan.fluidsynth.Fluidsynth.<clinit>(Fluidsynth.java:208)
    at jorgan.fluidsynth.play.FluidsynthSoundPlayer.createSynth(FluidsynthSoundPlayer.
java:116)
    at jorgan.fluidsynth.play.FluidsynthSoundPlayer.update(FluidsynthSoundPlayer.
java:58)
    at jorgan.play.OrganPlay.createPlayer(OrganPlay.java:270)
    at jorgan.play.OrganPlay.<init>(OrganPlay.java:101)
    at jorgan.play.OrganPlaySessionProvider$1.<init>(OrganPlaySessionProvider.java:45)
    at jorgan.play.OrganPlaySessionProvider.create(OrganPlaySessionProvider.java:44)
    at jorgan.session.spi.SessionRegistry.create(SessionRegistry.java:36)
    at jorgan.session.OrganSession.lookup(OrganSession.java:212)
    at jorgan.play.OrganPlaySessionProvider.init(OrganPlaySessionProvider.java:36)
    at jorgan.session.spi.SessionRegistry.init(SessionRegistry.java:29)
    at jorgan.session.OrganSession.<init>(OrganSession.java:100)
    at jorgan.gui.OrganFrame.openOrgan(OrganFrame.java:350)
    at jorgan.gui.OrganFrame$RecentAction.actionPerformed(OrganFrame.java:466)
    at javax.swing.AbstractButton.fireActionPerformed(Unknown Source)
    at javax.swing.AbstractButton$Handler.actionPerformed(Unknown Source)
    at javax.swing.DefaultButtonModel.fireActionPerformed(Unknown Source)
    at javax.swing.DefaultButtonModel.setPressed(Unknown Source)
    at javax.swing.AbstractButton.doClick(Unknown Source)
    at javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicMenuItemUI.doClick(Unknown Source)
    at javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicMenuItemUI$Handler.mouseReleased(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.AWTEventMulticaster.mouseReleased(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.Component.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
    at javax.swing.JComponent.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.Component.processEvent(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.Container.processEvent(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.Component.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.retargetMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.Window.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventQueue.access$500(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventQueue$3.run(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventQueue$3.run(Unknown Source)
    at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
    at java.security.ProtectionDomain$JavaSecurityAccessImpl.doIntersectionPrivilege
(Unknown Source)
    at java.security.ProtectionDomain$JavaSecurityAccessImpl.doIntersectionPrivilege
(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventQueue$4.run(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventQueue$4.run(Unknown Source)
    at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
    at java.security.ProtectionDomain$JavaSecurityAccessImpl.doIntersectionPrivilege
(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilters(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForFilter(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
    at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(Unknown Source)


Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-07-31 23:10

This has been the debugged error that is common to ALL the attempts that have been 
made to create a backend with the new libfluidsynth-3.dll. Apparently, the links or 
paths to dependent libraries or the order and inclusivity of those that must be 
present in the "default" folder of the Fluidsynth folder in jOrgan are not correct.

I am wondering if any of the geeks or nerds among us.....Jonathan Aquilina, perhaps, 
have any input in this regard???


"INFO: native failure
java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: C:\Program
Files\jOrgan\lib\fluidsynth\default\bin\libfluidsynth-3.dll:
Can't find dependent libraries"

John Beach 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-31 23:18

In my set up, my files are located here:
C:\Program Files\jOrgan 4.00b1\lib\fluidsynth\default\bin...

I don't know whether it should cause the issue you report.

Mark

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From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-31 23:27

I too have been getting that too..... I don't know why it worked, once....

When I look into audio driver, there are no options visible so nothing selectable, 
when the new default folder is selected in the configuration of fluidsynth.

Perhaps Sven / Graham can shed some light into how to resolve this.

Mark

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From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-01 00:48

I have played around with the file structure and transferring files to mimic the older 
versions that worked. Nothing I did would eliminate the fluidsynth failure. Something 
must be wrong with the new FS2.2.8 that prevents it from working or something is wrong 
with the retained files that may be pointing to the wrong files from the new FS folder. 
I suspect the new libfluidsynth-3.dll may have something to do with it.

Mark

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From John Beach on 2022-08-01 04:56                     

To prevent further wasted and pointless effort with respect to the creation of a 
dsound/portaudio backend for the newly released version of Fluidsynth 2.2.8, I need to 
tell you that an inspection of the libfluidsynth-3.dll using Notepad++ reveals that the 
entry for the latest version of fluidsynth> libfluidsynth-3.dll for the reverb function 
is below:
Using the numbered reference lines on the left side of the page, scroll down to the 
numbered line entries that are copied just below.
Quote
1067    rev_preset is deprecated and will be removed in a future release!
            rev_preset: too few arguments
            rev_preset: Failed. Parameter out of range?
1070    %s: needs 1 or 2 arguments
Unquote
 
I believe that, from this, we can infer that the problem with the reverb LEVEL amplitude 
modulation has not been addressed and so there is probably no need to pursue the issue further.
 
John Beach

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From JohnR on 2022-08-01 09:12                  

John Beach wrote:"there is probably no need to pursue the issue further."

Hi John,

I don't think that is the case just yet. We do not know precisely what those developer's 
remarks are referring to, except that it is to do with the Fluidsynth reverb. In addition, 
whenever some satisfactory Fluidsynth version is released, we shall have to solve the 
problem of building a backend for jOrgan. If Sven has the time and desire to solve the 
issue now rather than later, and seeing it is still a hot issue for some of us, I think 
it is probably a good time to keep addressing it.

Best wishes,
JohnR

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From JohnR on 2022-08-01 11:39

Sven,

I notice that Mark's default folder has the /lib/ turning up twice. It is also in 
the /bin/ - which is not the case in the Fluidsynth 2.2.8 download.

Perhaps this doesn't matter?

Best wishes,
JohnR

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From John Beach on 2022-08-02 01:32

The discussion at the link just below concerns the issue of the quality of the 
fluidsynth 2.0  reverb being related to the sample rate used for the soundfont.  
I tried different sample rate settings using the playback of Bach's organ sonata 
BWV 526 which has notes that are held for long periods, sufficient to make a 
good analysis of the effect.  What is incomprehensible is the fact of the 
difference in the reverb in Polyphone 1.9 or 2.3 (is there a difference in 
Fluidsynth version from Polyphone 1.9 to 2.3??) where the exact same settings 
of Room, Width, Damping and Level, as I used in a jOrgan fluidsynth disposition 
have no looped warp and woof or modulation related to the LEVEL amplitude.  
The tones are clear with no evidence of variation in steady-state tone.  This 
is, equally, true whether a single flute or a flute chorus was used in playback. 
Why this is, and what it indicates with respect to the treatment by Fluidsynth 
reverb elements in jOrgan is a mystery.   However, it is obvious that the effect 
is limited to jOrgan.   It was not evident in Qsynth.  So, it must have to do 
with some difference that is unique to jOrgan.   I have a question that seems 
pertinent.  In the download, zip file for Fluidsynth 2.2.8, in the bin folder, 
there is a Fluidsynth.exe (application) file that is not incorporated, in any 
way, into the jOrgan >Fluidsynth>default folder, nor in the Fluidsynth Executable 
Jar file in the lib folder of jOrgan.  Is there, in fact, any upgrade or update 
in the Fluidsynth.exe that would change from version to version.  I am assuming 
that changes are found in the content of the libfluidsynth.dll (and version 
numbers –2.0,3.0, etc.)
 
 
https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/issues/581 (I believer "derselbst" is 
one of the developers of fluidsynth, so I think his comment is informed and very 
relevant).  Interesting that he calls the effect a "wobble."  I could not help 
wondering how JohnR. achieved that in his Earlwood disposition and if reverse-
engineering would correct the problem in Fluidynth reverb........
 
In jOrgan 4.0B1 64-bit, I believe that I detected the looped, warp and woof 
(variations in amplitude modulation) in all of the sample rates at which I 
listened, both 22050, 44,100 and 196,000.  The latter, 196K seemed to have fairly 
good sound at the upper frequencies, but I would like to know what others find 
with respect to listening at different sample rates. 
 
 
John Beach

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From John Beach on 2022-08-02 01:51                          

The discussion becomes even more pertinent and to the point at the link below. 
 
https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/pull/584

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From Sven Meier on 2022-08-05 05:59                     

Hi all,

you can try out fluidsynth 2.2.8 with this backend for jOrgan:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/fluidsynth/Fluidsynth%202.2.8/

You have to unzip the file into your /lib/fluidsynth folder of your jOrgan installation, 
then select the backend "fluidsynth-2.2.8" in the jOrgan settings.

Have fun
Sven

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From John Beach on 2022-08-05 12:20                                                  

Sven, the backend works, flawlessly, with jOrgan 4.0 Beta 1 64-bit (Win10) and I will report 
fluidsynth reverb settings after I have seen whether the problem of amplitude modulation 
has been gotten rid of.

John Beach

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From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-05 17:03

I tried with jOrgan 3.21beta3. It did not work.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnB on 2022-08-05 17:55

I have tried the newest Fluidsynth backend 2.2.8.  (Dr. Mark, did you change the name 
of the unzipped backend to "default" and put it in the Fluidsynth folder in jOrgan?)  
I found that both the dsound and wasapi drivers work well and I tried them at 44,100 
and 196,000  sample rate and, though it may be purely subjective, I think that 196K 
was better.  The settings of Fluidsynth Reverb were the highest that Paul Stratman 
had established several years ago.  
 
My perception of the elements of reverb is that the only wave file that is a part of 
the "mix," is the Impulse Response (IR.wav) that is used as the user-variable boundaries 
of the environment into which a sound is released.   The idea that the wave files of the 
soundfont are (artificially-electronically) modulated relative to the parameters of the 
impulse response (if factually correct), in order to simulate a given-sized environment, 
does not seem logical.  But something of this sort has to explain the difference between 
Fluidsynth Reverb's amplitude modulation effect and Creative Labs EAX which does not
treat the soundfont wave files in the same manner.  The EAX studio in which parameters 
can be changed is a completely separate entity, apart from the wave file as the 
fundamental actuator in MIDI.

Since we know that EAX studio can effectuate reverb without the problem of loop-cycling 
(warp and woof) and produce an unmodulated steady-state tone, the quality of which remains 
the same whether the perceptible size of the environment is a bathroom or a cathedral, 
the same capability must be true for Fluidsynth Reverb.   Apparently, reverb is the 
electronic commixing of the wave files of the soundfont with the impulse response wave of 
the reverb application.  As the commixture is amplified, the effect is to emphasize the 
loop of the soundfont wave files, the cycling of the steady-state and any warp and woof 
that may occur during the cycling.  If this is related to sample rate, compounded by 
frequency/pitch, I can understand the complexity of the problem.  This, however, does not 
explain why EAX Studio does a great job with the reverb parameter elements and we, still, 
have remnants of the problem in Fluidsynth.
 
The other question I have is whether the entry in the Fluidsynth 2.2.8, libfluidsynth-3.dll 
which mentions the "rev preset is deprecated and will be removed in a future release,"  
concerns this problem and we need to be patient? 
 
That said, while it may not be perfect, it is usable and it can be attenuated by a lower 
setting of the LEVEL.  Again, the whole equals the sum of its parts,  and you have to play 
around with all the parts until you get an acceptable result.  
 
John Beach

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From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-05 18:08

Hi John B

You do not need to change the name (we had done something similar with Graham's backends 
Fluidsynth 1.1.11. The important thing to remember is to select the appropriate backend, 
whatever you want to call it, from the menu (view > configuration > fluidsynth). I observed 
that you need to apply / save and restart jOrgan too.

Mark

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From John Beach on 2022-08-05 23:58     

A further analysis using a keyboard for sustaining play of single and multiple stops in 
jOrgan 4.0 beta 1 64-bit, using both wasapi and dsound with Fluidsynth 2.2.8 Reverb 
indicates that no change to the reverb amplitude modulation and "looped-cycling" (warp 
and woof) problem of the wave files of the soundfont at LEVELs between 0.04 and 1.00 has 
been addressed.
 
As I mentioned in previous emails, this problem does not occur in Polyphone with the exact, 
same settings of the Reverb elements.  The playback of the steady-state of the wave file 
is a sustained, unmodulated tone that does not betray the fact of the sound being a looped 
recording, wave file.  In Polyphone, the production of the sound is as good as that in 
Creative EAX with a "Cathedral" setting of the reverb.   So, the problem is unique to jOrgan 
and, specifically, to the LEVEL Parameter of the Reverb element.  Is this a kind of 
continuous filter element, essentially, MIDI CC #91 (RPN) with other NRPNs assigned to Depth 
CC#92 having to do with tremolo, and, apparently, LEVEL, being an amplitude (volume) control, 
since, in fact, it has the effect of muffling or reducing the loudness of audio output 
between 0.01 and 1.0, and, also, causing a very audible amplification of the looped, 
steady-state with warp and woof in audible cycles. 
 
Personally, I don't understand what tremolo/vibrato has to do with the fixed 
configuration of an environment into which a sound is emitted.  It does not seem 
that electronic simulation of the effect of reverb would require use of a tremolo 
or vibrato setting.   I perceive "volume" to be the loudness of an instrument sound, 
completely unrelated to the effect of an acoustic environment which is the size of 
the space into which the sound is emitted.  I can't conceive of any obstacle or 
baffle in such an acoustic environment that would produce a tremolo/vibrato effect, 
modulating the sound such as the Fluidsynth Reverb is doing.  This does not occur 
with a General MIDI soundfont and the use of the CC#91 and CC#92 continuous 
controllers in my MIDI sequencer program, and changes in the amount of depth of 
Reverb in CC#91 in the Parameters of the instrument of the Soundfont, while 
limiting the breadth of the effect of size of acoustic environment, do NOT modulate 
the wave file to produce even the slightest vibrato or tremolo effect.  So, it seems 
that this interpolation, interpretation or definition of reverberation is overdone or 
incorrect.  If it does not occur, naturally, in the acoustic environment, why would it 
be incorporated in the commixtures of parameters to effectuate reverb, electronically? 
 
I assume that the analysis of the parameters of the Impulse Response wave files (one 
for each size of environment, not one that is "transposed up or down" to simulate the 
difference in size of a building)  on which the digital processing of the audio-input 
signal (summation of wave file output, from single stop to full plenum) is based, sets 
the boundaries or "walls" of the environment causing the sound waves to be bounced or 
reflected back, the essential definition of "re ver ber action."   I don't believe 
that any refraction of the sound takes place such as would cause a tremolo or vibrato 
effect, such as the in-line tremolo paddle in a wind trunk, interrupting and reducing 
the flow of wind to a windchest in a pipe organ causes (warp and woof).  Specifically, 
I believe the processing of the soundfont, wave files with respect to reverb LEVEL 
parameter in jOrgan is the problem, since the effect can be regulated and eliminated 
with the 0.0 setting of the LEVEL.   I am wondering what other CCs or combination of 
RPNs or NRPNs might be used to effectuate spatialization without modulation with respect 
to LEVEL?
 
John Beach                              

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-07 15:25  

John Beach wrote:"I have tried the newest Fluidsynth backend 2.2.8.  I found that both 
the dsound and wasapi drivers work well"

I have just confirmed John Beach's test, with similar results. With the Reverb LEVEL set 
at 0.03 (which actually is my choice with my console organ), the cyclic modulation is 
barely discernible. It is a different matter with higher levels - e.g. 0.13, which 
probably is the highest level I would normally use. So the issue has definitely not 
been dealt with in Fluidsynth 2.2.8 . My limited testing with only one note at a time 
suggested that the quality of the reverb has been improved.

There was one surprising detail: the effect seems to be very pitch related. Using the 
Norden Schnitger HW Principal 8' stop, the G in the top octave was far more affected 
by the modulation than other notes, and the G in the octave below that only slightly 
affected. I'm sorry but I don't remember what the Reverb LEVEl was for that.

I was delighted to see that wasapi worked. I assume that meant excellent latency, and 
that was certainly my impression.

Thank you, Sven, for getting this to work for us. The whole exercise has been very 
encouraging. I plan to make another attempt to tell the Fluidsynth developers of our concern.

Best wishes,
JohnR

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From John Beach on 2022-08-07 18:07

JohnR.,  I agree with your assessment, except that I find that the looped-cycling, 
modulation effect becomes, objectionably, perceptible at 0.09 of the LEVEL.

I have been trying to narrow down the specific continuous controller (among the CCs 
from 91-95) that would be causal of the undesirable effect.  Also, since onboard 
audio and PCI/PCIe soundcards are hardware that are software-controlled, we know 
that the effect can be corrected and that it does not exist with other software 
which effectuates the reverb quality.  That this has been a problem for nearly four 
years seems rather exceptional, especially, since it must be obvious to other, non-
jOrgan users of the Fluidsynth soundfont application.

It is because of the audible, looped-cycling of the wave file that is effectuated by 
upward adjustments of LEVEL, a phenomenon that is NOT perceptible apart from 
Fluidsynth reverb, that I believe it is, specifically, attributable to CCs other 
than #91, amount of reverb.   I have tried resetting the MOD LFO and VIB LFO 
frequencies to 0 (from my norms of MOD LFO 4.981 and VIB LFO of 14.285 for tremulant 
and the recommended setting of VIB LFO for Flexible Wind), to see if that would stop 
the "looped cycling."   It did not.  So, some controller setting, programming error 
within the libfluidsynth-02 and -03.dlls is causing the problem.  As much as we have 
discussed this, one would think that someone of the developers would be addressing the 
problem.

I have no idea who the other groups of users are that use Fluidsynth, pervasively.  
I am inclined to think, perhaps, gamers, although games may use the  gm.dls file.  
Fluidsynth soundfont capability would allow for far more non-General Midi sounds to be 
incorporated for gamers, but since audiophile-type music listening is not part of that, 
it is doubtful that they would be plagued with the objectionable effect of the reverb.

I, also, believe that the reverb has been improved, and a more grandiose "cathedral" 
sound can be gotten from Fluidsynth reverb than from the unedited, factory-preset 
"cathedral" in EAX studio, which, while good, does not extend to the grandeur of the 
effect of Room=1.0, Width=1.0, Damping=.50 and Level=.09

"There was one surprising detail: the effect seems to be very pitch related. "   
I wondered whether this was caused by wave file length in seconds (is short, 2 seconds, 
for example, better than 6 seconds?) or transposition with respect to cycles per second, 
the very definition of frequency.  If wave files were left unlooped in the soundfont, 
would the effect occur?  I have not tested this.

"I was delighted to see that wasapi worked."   I, too, have switched to wasapi from dsound 
which, despite portaudio being a listed driver, has not worked for me.

" I plan to make another attempt to tell the Fluidsynth developers of our concern."    
Unless I misunderstand the meaning of line 1067 in the latest version of the Fluidsynth 
2.2.8 libfluidsynth-03.dll which says "rev preset is deprecated and will be removed in a 
future release,"  I think they are aware of some problem with it.  I know nothing of 
programming, but the language used in programming seems simplistic and, broadly, abstract 
to the point of insufficiency to address a specific problem related to audio signal 
processing with the parameters of the impulse response for reverb effect.

It won't hurt to give them some gentle persuasion...

John Beach

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From John Beach on 2022-08-07 23:35

JohnR.,  I just tested the fluidsynth-example.disposition with UNlooped samples, 
exchanging the wave files that come with the jOrgan installation for 6 second-
length wave files of a Principal rank. The effect of warp and woof (tremolo, 
apparently, though slower) is audible several times during the playback of the 
entire, 6-second length (to its repeat), which proves that it is not related to 
the length of the looped wave file for steady-state, sustained tone that should 
be unmodulated.

My understanding is that Room and Width in the Fluidsynth Reverb elements are, 
probably, controlled by CC#91, and that the effect of the signal processing of the 
wave files in relation to the impulse response.wav (causing the problem) is, likely, 
CC#92.  The other possibility is the effect of the setting of Chorus phasing CC#95, 
perhaps.  I don't have any Fluidsynth Chorus elements in my dispositions since I 
believe it is, artificially,  extraneous to natural effect of stop combinations 
and "overdoes" the natural.

It will require someone with a thorough knowledge of the specific aspects of 
continuous controllers and in the development of Fluidsynth to correct the problem.

John Beach

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From Mark Bugeja on 2022-08-08 00:14

Just out of curiosity- are the objectionable effects perceived on my sample sets? 
Could someone perhaps check the original sample set of Balzan or any of the other 
organs I released? I had manually looped the samples using loopauditioneer and made 
sure they never extended beyond the release point let alone the length of the sample. 
There was reference to the problem arising in those samples where loops went beyond 
the end of the wav file.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-08 05:42

I have a feeling that the problem and solutions are a bit more complex.

I have tested different SoundFont editors and different SoundCards ($25 to
$1000) and found that the loop point length makes a difference as to the
frequency of the "tremolo" of the sound sample.

Reverb exacerbates that issue... especially in higher frequency portions of
a given rank.  By that I mean that the lower end of a 2ft stop will sound
OK...  the same pitch on the 8ft stop at the high end of the keyboard will
show artifacts more clearly.  And of course the high end of the 2ft is rift
with artifacts.

In SoundForge Professional the Sample Points are shown.  I believe at this
point that the sample frequency of the higher pitches is not high enough.  I
intend to resample a few of pitches and see if there is any change.  So its
MATH.

In Hauptwerk 4 with the included sample set... the problems are the same.
If I am not mistaken... which I could be... Hauptwerk 4 uses Fluidsynth.

Great work to ALL in helping understand the issues!

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-08 07:09

I registered with GitHub and managed with ease to join the Fluidsynth Discussions 
(General category) sometime yesterday, and also put up a relevant post. Marc-Paul's 
post in the other thread gave me the clue. Thank you, Marc-Paul, for that. There 
has been a response very quickly - but not yet from one of the developers. The poster 
is another user, but seems to be quite informed technically. He also does not 
like it, and even thinks that the effect is intentional, and is a form of vibrato. 
I doubt this, however.

However, he has given a link, which I am too busy to explore, even if I understood 
it. It is:
https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/blob/e64ad841cb4b6afdc66a0231835b16638108c727/
src/rvoice/fluid_rev.c#L256-L273

By the way, I don't think that the reverb modulation problem has anything to do with 
sample length, or length-of-sample beyond the loop points, or MIDI commands. Nor do 
I think that the matter in the Fluidsynth discussion which Marc-Paul brought to our 
attention has anything to do with reverb.

For the moment, we can explore Fluidsynth 2.2.8, if we have the time, and shall have to 
wait until the Fluidsynth developers fix the offending modulation, if they are so 
disposed, and are able to.

Best wishes,
JohnR

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From John Beach on 2022-08-08 12:27

I found the following messages in the jOrgan archives of 2011,  so, I believe the amount 
of reverb is continuous controller 91 and, most likely, the offending continuous controller 
is 93, Chorus which is used for the LEVEL.  "Chorus" is modulation and loudness or breadth 
is amplitude which is the effect we get as the Fluidsynth LEVEL of reverb is increased.  
You would think that this could be corrected by simple adjustment.  However, that reduces 
the breadth of the amount of reverb as much as the modulation of the wave file.

John Beach


"Re: [jOrgan-user] [Beta Testing] New Gain Values for Fluidsynth Sound elements
From: John Beach <jbeac...@fa...> - 2011-04-04 13:15:51

Sven,  aren't the new Reverb and Chorus Elements in 3.13 beta 3 somewhat
redundant and unnecessary since the same effects can be achieved by a
Continuous Filter Element and the appropriate midi message
set 176, set 91 (reverb) or 93 (chorus), set value 127 | mult value   ?

I did this in my disposition and find that they work just fine.  Is jOrgan
fully MIDI  CC (controller) RPN (registered parameter number) compliant and
compatible or are just a few of them controllable or changeable with the
jOrgan Message window?

Thanks,
John Beach


Re: [jOrgan-user] [Beta Testing] New Gain Values for Fluidsynth Soundelements
From: Sven Meier <sv...@me...> - 2011-04-04 16:52:29

Hi John,

the new elements allow you to fine tune 8 different effects parameters.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge you don't have this fine
control with pure Midi messages.

Is jOrgan fully MIDI CC (controller) RPN (registered parameter number)
compliant ...?

Sure :).

Sven "

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-08 12:31

And Lynn Walls responded to my question to Sven (in 2011):


"The question is NOT whether jOrgan is "compliant and compatibile" with ALL MIDI CC and RPN
message formats (it certainly is!), but rather whether FLUIDSYNTH is responsive to those
MIDI messages."

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-08 13:59

Mark Bugeja wrote: "Just out of curiosity- are the objectionable effects perceived 
on my sample sets? Could someone perhaps check the original sample set of Balzan or 
any of the other 
organs I released?" 

Mark...
           ...I will be happy to take a look... just tell me which sample set you would 
like for me to examine and send me a link.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-08 14:07

I have decided to build a 32bit Windows computer so I can install the
Creative SoundFont editor Vienna and add its outcomes to my examinations.

One of the reasons I am interested in this is that with a higher sample rate
the loop points on sample waveform can be set more accurately.  I don't know
if that will make any difference in the smooth transition between loop and
the rest of the sample, beginning or ending, but I think it's worth a look.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-09 06:52

Hi all,

There has been no further follow-up post to mine on the Fluidsynth Discussion Forum 
regarding the cyclic modulation which has us so much concerned. I have followed the 
link given by Tom M in his response, and I have concluded that the modulation is an 
integral part of the design, and is not going away any time soon. As Tom M has 
disclosed, it is intentional, and is there to reduce "ringing". What put me off 
initially was his use of the word,"vibrato". But a better term would have been 
"pitch-shifting". I recall that the technique was used in the pre-digital days in 
some public address systems to reduce the likelihood  of ringing.

The reverberation section of Fluidsynth Version 2 is not designed by Fluidsynth 
developers, any more than what is in FS 1, which is "Freeverb". FS 2 has one called 
"jot FDN reverberator". I have no idea what "jot" means here. But this program is 
clearly regarded as an improvement over the earlier one. The modulation is used as 
a contributor to its "success".

One further thing I have learned about this newer program is that it uses mono samples 
(such as jOrgan usually does) and produces a form of stereo reverberation.

If we want to use Fluidsynth 2, we shall have to learn to live with it. I believe that 
is possible, and I have some hopes that the use of the soundfont protocol may furnish us, 
along with other Fluidsynth users, with a means of reducing the audibility of the 
annoying modulation, without, of course, affecting the role it plays in the design. 
I shall explore this, and report before long, I hope.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-09 08:39

Maybe we should look laterally.... in another direction and seriously consider another 
sound driver.

jOrgan is brilliant in its design and ease of creating GUIs. It is sad that we have 
locked in and enslaved ourselves to using sf2. If we must, we need to pool our efforts 
in finding a driver that allows the continued use of sf2.

The alternative is moving in the direction of GrandOrgue and using jOrgan as a frontend 
to it but having to abandon sf2s and whatever benefits these bring with them (eg small 
size of sample-sets) and using wav files directly (much easier to work with) instead.

I have often expressed that GO is fantastic for sound and jOrgan for the graphics. Both 
are free. GO itself was, should I say abandoned, with no updates for a long while, until 
someone picked it up again and started moving forward again perhaps in a slightly 
different direction. I have largely lost touch as I am currently more focused on 
important personal affairs and looking forward to retirement from my profession. So I do 
not know what progress has been made lately.

Whichever way we want to go, I still firmly believe someone should amalgamate the two 
into one software capturing the best of both worlds and independently of both jO and GO. 
It would be effort well spent in my very humble opinion.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-10 08:34                                  

John Beach and Mark,

Thank you for your two most recent posts which have been provoked by our Fluidsynth/reverb 
discussion. Thanks too for all the posters on this topic. It shows that we care about these 
things. We care about pipe organ sound, about the instruments that produce it, and about 
the marvelous music that has been written for it. Most people do not care about these 
things, but they do care about other things. I am making the simple point that one "size" 
does not fit all; one solution does not meet all perceived needs.

One of the very many great attributes about jOrgan is that it makes these things we care 
about accessible to a huge range of users (admirers), with sufficient flexibility to permit 
people to find solutions to their particular preferences fairly close at hand. If the 
precise details of one solution are not quite to our liking, a more acceptable one will 
probably be found without too much trouble.

I have never made any secret of the fact that for me personally, jOrgan fits what I am 
seeking in a way which greatly outstrips other approaches. I am naturally averse to conflict, 
for reasons in my background which I understand and find fairly painful to think about. For 
this reason I tend not to draw attention to what is lacking in those other approaches, 
things which I consider to be serious weaknesses. There are people who prefer what those 
other approaches offer, and that's just how things are.

Because of time pressure I shall not respond to these two most recent posts in any detail, 
except to repeat the observation I have already made: you care enough about these things 
to make the suggestions you do. I shall make one exception: John, you need to read with 
much more care the second paragraph of my post where I explain the reason for this cyclic 
modulation in FS2's reverb. I have explained that the FS designers did NOT design the reverb 
system they have bundled with FS2, any more than they did the one that they bundled with FS1. 
The actual designers of the Jot FDN reverberator have in view a much broader musical 
population than pipe organ enthusiasts, and their product may suit that population and the 
type of music important to them quite well ...

I want to express my personal gratitude for the way Sven has helped us with this particular 
matter, and I want to caution jOrgan users from making any demands upon Sven or even 
suggestions to him as to what else he might or might not do to "improve" jOrgan. He has, 
over a long period of time, already done with outstanding success far more than can be 
reasonably expected from any one person.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Rick W on 2022-08-14 08:55

Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote:"Maybe we should look laterally.... 
in another direction and seriously consider another sound driver."

Hello Mark

Last night I had success using jOrgan as a front end for Hauptwerk. 

While I know it had been talked about before, any information I could find was sketchy 
and unfinished. It actually worked out simpler than I expected, at least for step 1 in my testing. 

I have spent the big money to go over to the dark side, but after some initial tinkering, 
I still want my specific "Christie" organ. 

Having a merge of the two open source virtual organ engines would be a match made in heaven. 

I do believe though that the encryption protection of Hauptwerk Sample Sets, providing third-
party Sample vendors a secure market, has been the key to securing the investment in creating 
so many quality Sample Sets.

I know personally, that if I were to put in the work to create a Sample Set, I would need to 
ensure some financial return. If not for me personally, for the volunteer organisation who 
owns the instrument I am closely involved with. 

I'm not sure how an open source platform can provide that secure market to third party vendors?

Regards 
Rick

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Al Schroer on 2022-08-14 09:07

May I make a simple but expensive solution?  So much time and energy is so wasted on 
fluidsynth.

Use MOTU AVB products for your multi channel setups.  Use the on board reverb.

Al

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-14 09:23

Hi Rick,

One issue in your reply strikes me ... why do we all have to do things for money? This is 
where I disagree with and almost started to hate HW.... It has become money.... more money
.... and even bigger money with the software going through some 3 upgrades in a short space 
of time and sample-sets cost 4 arms, 4 legs, a heart and one's very soul - becoming bigger 
and more memory hungry like never before! Soon one will need a hundred speakers around the 
room to play some of the sets and God knows how many sound cards, RAM and more..... HW has 
become ridiculous.

I have produced 4 sample-sets of the 3 major software (on occasions also for other eg Aria, 
K5) and never asked for a dime other than "beg" for donations upon which I give another 
(extended) set free! Sven worked for free and so did the authors of GrandOrgue.... and so do 
many of the open source world. The inventor of the internet gave it to the world for free 
and what did the world do? I spent thousands of hours and the return was meagre at best. 
Hundreds continue to enjoy my work..... I guess I should be guilty too.....

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-14 09:38

A free software like jOrgan need a similarly free sound engine for its users. If it's going 
to cost significant money, then HW might probably be a wiser choice leaving jOrgan for its 
originally intended purpose - a relay to control such things as lighting in a home. jOrgan, 
despite its name, was not originally conceived for the purpose of playing virtual instruments 
if I recall correctly.

As things stand, I think GrandOrgue is the most reasonable option even from a sample-set 
producer point of view. Just my opinion based on my own personal, practical experience. Do 
forgive me for being honest about the whole subject. I like jOrgan's graphics handling. It is 
second to none but FS has remained a stumbling block to its potentials as a software for 
playing virtual instruments, saying nothing of the additional work and expertise necessary 
to create sf2s.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-14 12:06
 
Dr. Mark said: "jOrgan is brilliant in its design and ease of creating GUIs. It is sad 
that we have locked in and enslaved ourselves to using sf2. If we must, we need to pool 
our efforts in finding a driver that allows the continued use of sf2."
 
I am a bit confused.  On the one hand you seem to be disappointed about the use of 
soundfont banks and, on the other, you think we should collaborate to "find a drive that 
allows the continued use of sf2."   What is wrong with dsound?  I have said, repeatedly, 
that the EAX capability of Creative Labs Sound Blaster soundcards which support sf2 is a 
great alternative to using the Fluidsynth Reverb.    fluidsynth does a great job,  
with the sole exception of the current Reverb problem.  
 
"The alternative is moving in the direction of GrandOrgue and using jOrgan as a frontend 
to it but having to abandon sf2s and whatever benefits these bring with them (eg small size 
of sample-sets) and using wav files directly (much easier to work with) instead."  
 
I think that trying to run jOrgan with another program would be fairly CPU intensive.  
I find, now, that if I use jOrgan in conjunction with a midi sequencer program to playback 
a .mid file, and attempt to use a browser to find something, at the same time, on the web, 
that there is unacceptable deterioration of the quality of playback.  Very noticeable slow 
down and halting playback.
Not good. 
 
jOrgan should remain its own independent program, perhaps, incorporating a stand-alone 
reverb capability with Fluidsynth which is, still, the best soundfont software synthesizer 
engine that I have used.  My experience shows that even Creative Sound (now, Generic Sound 
with soundfonts loaded by Soundfont Bank Manager) is not as good as Fluidsynth in dealing 
with large numbers of engaged stops. 
 
How difficult would it be to add realtime, reverb processing to jOrgan?   I did not find 
that processing wave files with one of the reverb environments, available in Audacity 
Effect>Reverb>, was, at all, satisfactory.  The idea that real pipe sounds with environmental, 
acoustic reverb   are recorded and used in playback, without the addition of DSP Reverb seems 
the realistic approach.  This, apparently, is what the reverb effect added to wave files in 
Audacity is supposed to do.  I found the "cathedral" setting, when added to the octave wave 
files for a soundfont, to be unsatisfactory.   Actually, I believe it is our expectations 
which are unrealistic.  The reality is that a sound is emitted into an acoustical environment 
and the sound reverberates until its decay, which is a progressive fade out, not an amplitude 
modulation.  The basic quality of the sound is not changed by the environment.  If it is 
changed, at all, it is changed by the mechanisms of the organ, such as tremulant.    What is 
happening with Fluidsynth Reverb LEVEL is an anomaly, an unrealistic and improper effect that 
destroys the benefit of purpose.   The way they have configured LEVEL in Reverb is as a switch, 
triggering the looped playback of the sound, with a warp and woof that is completely unrealistic 
in a proper production of steady-state sound.

Since they know what the difference in settings for LEVEL between version 1.0 and 2.2.8 are, 
it should be a simple matter to replace what is currently in 2.2.8 with that which is in 1.0. 
 
Hardware has the capability of reproducing the sound, correctly, and with the proper reverb.  
It just needs the correct parameters of software to make it do so. 
 
John Beach 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Rick W on 2022-08-14 12:47 

There are a few different aspects opening up in this discussion. 

Let me clarify one thing for now. 

There is no way jOrgan can have a reverb function because jOrgan doesn't create any sound. 
jOrgan is just a MIDI Relay that combines Console functions to MIDI Keyboard signals. 
These signals are then fed to some sort of sound engine that can trigger and/or synthesise 
sound from Samples. This is now outside of jOrgan despite Fluidsynth appearing to part of JOrgan. 
Reverb can only be rendered after the sounds are created.
jOrgan (when mated with Fluidsynth) is reliant on the Fluidsynth community for how Fluidsynth 
performs and the functionality it provides.

Where things seem to stand at the moment, is that "progress" in the Fluidsynth community is 
detrimental rather than beneficial to jOrgans use of Fluidsynth. 

Regards 
Rick

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-14 18:19

John Beach said: "I am a bit confused.  On the one hand you seem to be disappointed about 
the use of soundfont banks and, on the other, you think we should collaborate to "find a 
drive that allows the continued use of sf2.""

I am only trying to explore and discuss options, looking at what is good and should be kept 
whilst at the same time considering what others would like to see/ have. There should be 
nothing confusing about that. If we want jOrgan to continue using sf2 as source of sound 
and we don't like FS we must consider finding a suitable alternative that would be equally 
easy to install and use or we've got to move away in a totally different direction..... 
vertical vs lateral thinking. It has been a futile wait for FS developers to come up with 
a solution for our complaint and it seems like they simply couldn't give a hoot... Let's 
stop griping and whining and move forwards and find our own solution if we are to make any 
progress. Some solutions found are not quite practical for the lesser mortals amongst us.

From a sample-set creator, I find sf2 rather confusing and I have had to rely on others to 
convert my wav files into sf2 format. In practice why go this extra complicated step when 
the wav files are playable albeit using a different software? Why create a problem 
especially if we're not going to be far better, if at all, than what we are?

I must admit that jOrgan was my first love and the idea of creating sample-sets myself was 
originally specifically to contribute to the jOrgan community in kind for all the 
opportunities and help received in this new world I got introduced to. It was also a 
collaborated exercise between me and our late friend Panos Ghekas who loved jOrgan and who 
endeavoured to bring out the best in it. Since, I moved on yet there remains this nostalgic 
aura hanging around jOrgan like the morning mist.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-14 18:44

Rick said:  " There is no way jOrgan can have a reverb function because jOrgan doesn't 
create any sound."
 
Fluidsynth Reverb is unique to the extent that it does NOT respond to the normal, MIDI, 
Continuous Controllers (RPNs) that are used to effectuate reverb and chorus from within, 
for example, a MIDI Sequencer program, having the capability of changing and specifying  
assignable RPNs and NRPNs.  While it does respond to Volume and Expression changes that 
are received via input to jOrgan by Loopbe virtual MIDI cable, it does NOT respond to 
changes in Modulation (tremolo) settings from the same MIDI sequencer program.   This is 
only, partially, understandable, since duplication of capability is, largely, a matter of 
convenience, not absolute necessity.  However, one would think that the MIDI Standard would 
apply, nearly equally, to General Sound as well as General MIDI, since parameter controls 
and changes are, equally, necessary with respect to Soundfonts, whose fundamental 
difference is found in the specific wave file sounds which comprise the substance of the 
instrument sounds that differ from those of General MIDI, by choice of the creator or user.   
The fact is that a General MIDI soundfont's wave files can be substituted, but the specific 
instruments of a General MIDI soundbank (gm.dls), for example, are specified for purposes of 
consistency of standard playback, relative to THE Standard.
 
Seemingly, the recorded wave files of ranks of pipes containing the effects of the acoustic 
environment in which they were recorded, will require nothing more than exact playback of 
those wave files when a key is pressed and a Note-ON/Note-OFF message is sent.  Other than, 
perhaps, a release parameter, and a preset change message for the tremulant-version of the 
same organ stop, and response to volume and expression controls, the recorded, wave files 
contain the whole of the organ sounds.

With real-time, digital processing of the organ wave files relative to the parameters of 
the reverb, impulse response, wave file, the concept of artificial manipulation of the 
wave file becomes a consideration that, while theoretically, correct (perhaps, and "haps" 
seems to be a problematic variable), practically, becomes a matter of subjective use and, 
consequently, criticism.

If and since the MIDI specification sets the controllers and depth of effects such as 
reverb and chorus, it was foreseen that reverb would be a controllable variable relative 
to the general sound output of MIDI-capable instruments.   That is, some size-quantity 
of reverberation effect, natural to a given environment, delimited from 0.00 to 1.0 with 
respect to the parameters of Room, Width and Damping, the individual settings of which 
regulate the effect-constructs on the wave files of the instrument, it is, specifically, 
LEVEL which, by "amplitude" becomes an abstract and seemingly, irrational regulation of 
sound quality with a modulation which is, completely, unacceptable in terms of its realism.   
The natural consequence of combining sounds of different pitches does not need an electronic 
regulation, exaggerating the effect of such combination.  To increase modulation, by a 
control setting,  is only logical if modulation, such as tremolo or vibrato is the desired 
objective.  That is not the objective or effect of reverberation.   So, LEVEL can not, 
properly, be the amplitude modulation of the looped-cycling of the instrument-sound, wave 
file, any more than it could be the looped cycling of the impulse response file parameters.
 
"jOrgan is just a MIDI Relay that combines Console functions to MIDI Keyboard signals."    
I see jOrgan as a user-definable,  Graphic User Interface for MIDI instruments, purposefully, 
synthesis of and for organ-sound production.  It is, uniquely, that, until the substance of 
sound/audio processing,  input and output are incorporated.  The concept of soundbanks, other 
than those of soundfonts, has never been a practice or a topic of serious discussion with 
respect to jOrgan and no other alternatives to Fluidsynth or Creative Sound, except Generic 
Sound, have ever been pursued.  Even Generic Sound is a nominal difference which is, 
essentially, Creative Sound with soundfonts loaded into RAM  by Soundfont Bank Manager, or 
it is the use of the internal or pipe sounds of an external instrument for purposes of 
control, via MIDI, by the jOrgan interface.   With the exception of discussions concerning 
SAMS, there has been no need to discuss sound production or the problems of simulation of 
effects related to it.

"These signals are then fed to some sort of sound engine that can trigger and/or synthesise 
sound from Samples. This is now outside of jOrgan despite Fluidsynth appearing to part of 
jOrgan. Reverb can only be rendered after the sounds are created."
 
"The idea that reverb can, only, be rendered after the sounds are created" is, technically, 
problematic since specific environment is a "constant" with respect to parameters, room and 
width= size, and damping, which signifies, to me, an absorption of sound reducing the 
duration of it.  However, the processing of a sound wave by that environment should not 
produce an "amplitude modulation," defined as, either, a loudness of wavering, on the one 
hand,  or a wavering with respect to loudness, on the other.   "Level," as a "gradient" 
makes sense with respect to "size."   Loudness is a static property of the individual 
voicing of an organ stop.   If and since reality is a logical expectation, the ability of 
electronics to replicate size by "impulse response" in reverberation effect,  and process 
and impose it on a sound wave, single or ensemble, without wavering (without controller-
caused modulating, such as warp and woof or tremulant/vibrato), and allowing the natural 
fade out of the sound, should be the expectation. 
 
"jOrgan (when mated with Fluidsynth) is reliant on the Fluidsynth community for how 
Fluidsynth performs and the functionality it provides."  
 
Very true and since they can't or won't do anything about the effect, some alternative 
to Fluidsynth reverb needs to be found.  Is it not possible to take an audio output 
signal and process it, realtime,  with extantial reverb by a stand-alone application?   
I believe this is what Creative Labs EAX does since it works with both live playing or 
the playback of a .mid file or the use of jOrgan proprietary .mid files.  There has to 
be a solution to this problem. 
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-14 20:54                                  

Mark wrote:"It has been a futile wait for FS developers to come up with
a solution for our complaint and it seems like they simply couldn't give a hoot..."

Those closing words are simply not true. I believe I have given you the link to the GitHub 
Discussion which I initiated. The person who replied to my post is one of the Fluidsynth 
developers, and he admitted that he is not keen on the modulation. He would like to insert 
a means for users to choose a variety of different reverb programs to allow them to make 
their own choice, but he is unsure whether he will find the time to do this.

I believe I have given you the link to the copious data regarding the Jot FDN Reverberator 
being used in FS2, where I learned that the modulation is a basic part of the design to 
allow the program to provide a much better reverberation sound, with greatly reduced ringing. 
Furthermore, the Jot FDN program is regarded as being on the cutting edge of reverberator 
design.

As far as I am aware, there is nothing wrong with Fluidsynth itself. I have searched the 
internet for complaints about Fluidsynth, and managed to find nothing. When people tell me 
that one sound engine gives a better sound than another, unless they give a reason and 
state in what way such and such is superior, I regard it as an unsubstantiated opinion. 
When people talk about better sound, I usually expect them to be referring to "sound 
quality". I once challenged a poster on our Discussion Forum when he made a remark about 
the sound of another VPO program being superior to that of jOrgan, as I was genuinely 
puzzled by it. I don't find anything inferior about its quality of sound. His reply, if 
I remember correctly, was that his program of choice allowed (and actually required) 
the use of release samples. Well, I wasn't impressed with that, for as I have stated here 
more than once, I regard release samples as used by HW and GO to be a distinct liability, 
on both musical and technical grounds, for reasons which I believe I have adequately stated.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
From Rick W on 2022-08-15 16:27

If we think about the history of MIDI for a moment, we find a digital serial communication 
protocol developed for musical instruments to "talk" to each other.  More specifically, 
the keyboard of one instrument could trigger sounds on another instrument.  Code was 
developed so that different brands of products could be linked, and included codes for 
telling the playing instrument or module not only what sound to play by how loud, vibrato, 
sustain, reverb, tuning...  As technology moved on, sound modules became popular, then also 
"Sound Cards" in computers.  The computer gaming industry pushed ways to have sound 
accompanying games and General MIDI played a role in that.

Then there was the development of fully software based MIDI players.  They are performing 
the function that once was a keyboard or a sound module or even a sound card.  They are 
still being told what to do by the MIDI messages.

jOrgan simply collects a stream of MIDI messages from a "MIDI Console" as well as 
information from the "Computer Console" and manipulates them as needed in much the same way 
as an Organ Relay.  It then sends MIDI Messages to some form of sound producing device.  
If the jOrgan Disposition developer has chosen to use Fluidsynth then there are a lot of 
specific commands and features that can be utilised in jOrgan to give the user various 
aspects of control over the sound being produced. Some of these options relate to "Reverb", 
but whatever any of these adjustments and parameters are, they are only ever MIDI messages 
that are passed to a secondary piece of software (in this case Fluidsynth) also running in 
the computer.

jOrgan never handles anything "Audio" it only ever handles MIDI messages that some other 
hardware or software deciphers to create audio sound and whatever manipulations are wished 
to be added to that sound.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-15 17:38

Hi John,

I'm sorry if I came across as being too blunt and perhaps unjustifiably so. I must admit in 
all honesty, I am not even too sure what the problem is all about in the first place. I 
joined in more in attempt to provide ideas to stimulate efforts along other lines of thought, 
exploring other alternatives rather than continuing to discuss the matter and getting nowhere
.... at least that's is/was my impression. FS has been a bone of contention for quite a while.

It is sad that something is started and then almost abandoned because developers don't have 
time for it (perhaps because there's no money in the equation). Perhaps I should gracefully 
back down and let you guys tease it out. I'll keep myself at a safer distance and just observe. ;-)

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnB on 2022-08-15 23:30

The simple fact (which is attested to by long-time soundfont creators and users) is that 
Fluidsynth is the very best of software synthesizers dealing with the sf2 format.   We know 
this, ourselves, from the many years of using it with jOrgan.  As I stated in a recent post, 
Fluidsynth has the ability to deal quite nicely with larger amounts of stops than even Creative 
Sound.
 
I assumed that MIDI MPL could address any issue of controllers in jOrgan, simply, because the 
MIDI standard was complied with.   I, also, assumed that reverb, as a built-in effect capability 
of all sound cards and onboard sound, could be controlled with midi continuous controllers and 
applied to all audio output.    What I discovered was that Fluidsynth Sound requires the use of 
the Reverb elements of jOrgan and that continuous controller elements for CC#91 and #92, given 
the proper MPL messages, will NOT work with Fluidsynth, whereas, they WILL work with Generic 
Sound and Soundfonts loaded by Soundfont Bank Manager. 
 
I think a better name for the effect we are hearing (and to which we object) would be phase-
amplitude modulation.  When a sound is first emitted from a point of origin, it is its original 
and perfectly-formed sound wave.  As it travels and is impacted by the baffles and boundaries 
of a given environment (building space), the phase (in time and length) of the wave becomes 
amplified (not in the sense of louder) while, at the same time, beginning its decay or fade out.   
If this interpolation causes a modulation (warp and woof) ( or can, accurately, be described as 
"modulation"),  I don't think we perceive it in normal listening and this is why we are 
objecting to it.  Also, it was not a perceptible aspect of Fluidsynth versions prior to 2.0.   
You can illustrate what I mean if, using Audacity with a loaded wave file, you take the mouse 
and pull the bottom line of the wave file window down from its normal position.  The phase 
(time and length of the lines of the wave file) are "amplified."  The sound was generated while 
confined to the body of the pipe and when released from it, is allowed to diffuse within the 
boundaries and baffles of the acoustic environment.  It does NOT lose its identity as a flute 
or a diapason or a reed or a string.  So, its identity character is not changed as it diffuses 
in relation to the boundaries and baffles of the environment. 
 
The problem might be that the concept of impulse response (a pistol shot whose initial sound 
wave is proportionate to the size of the barrel and, in the free air, is "amplified in size and 
diffusion, but not in loudness, since it is, already, beginning to fade out or decay during its 
travel time, is not comparable to a musical sound wave having a different size, physical body in 
which it is generated and from which it is released into the air.  While both are acted upon, 
equally, (if the Impulse Response wave was generated in the same physical location as the wind 
chests of the organ) by the environment's boundaries and baffles, the application of the 
parameters of the Impulse Response file to the organ-stop wave files, is, due to their 
respective, physically-modelled origins, different and, therefore, not accurate.  If an impulse 
response file were made of a note, sounded on the organ played staccato, and the parameters of 
that were used as the fundamental for reverberation effect, wouldn't it be more accurate?  
Admittedly, mine is a layman's understanding of the subject, and more specific than general,  
in regard to the desired effect of reverb for which programmers are developing for, perhaps, 
gamers,  rather than musicians. 
 
I would be interested to know what others think about this.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-16 04:11

What we need is to have a sound engineer on board in this discussion. Nothing less.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Lynn Walls on 2022-08-16 07:38

Rick,

It seems that you and I have the same view of jOrgan.  Sven's original creation was pure MIDI.  
Then, somewhere along the way this discussion list started talking about sound generation.  One 
thing led to another, and before long "fluidsynth" crept in, and became a mainstream topic.

It seems people wanted jOrgan to become a complete musical instrument bundle...something like 
GrandOrgue or Hauptwerk.

I guess Sven became convinced that jOrgan, the super MIDI relay, should become polluted with an 
audio synth, and thus developed an "under-the-cover" linkage between jOrgan and fluidsynth.  The 
only redeeming aspect of this abomination is that the 16 channel MIDI limitation is removed in 
the linkage between jOrgan and its fluidsynth burden.


Personally I have never used fluidsynth.  My initial use of jOrgan was to drive an old 
SoundBlaster synth card.  Later I moved to the GigaStudio Orchestra software sampler.  It worked 
great for playing soundfont sample sets built from real organ samples.  Finally, I ended up 
getting Hauptwerk, (and I agree with Mark that even that miraculous product is now being 
corrupted by greed).  My "virtual" organ is now Hauptwerk version 4.2 based, with supplemental 
voices provided by a jOrgan-controlled Roland SC-88VL synth.


I'll probably never upgrade my Hauptwerk to one of the costly later versions, unless, of course 
Microsoft Windows and the Hauptwerk developers conspire to make my Windows 10/Hauptwerk 4.2/
jOrgan VTPO unusable.

CLW

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Rick W on 2022-08-17 14:24

Hi Lynn

Good to know you are still enjoying jOrgan.  Great that it can control multiple sound 
sources in your setup.

I have used Fluidsynth, but only ever as stage 1 verification of the functional detail in 
my disposition, and as part of that process it provided a single functional package I could 
circulate to co-developers and make available online.

There has been a lot of water under the bridge over the years and a lot of other things 
happening taking my focus, but now I am back researching and testing functions and 
connections for my next step.  I have revisited Bruce Miles' documentation, the Bill 
Skees' 4 volumes, Graham Goode's site, and the jOrgan WIKI on the hunt for the next piece 
of my jigsaw puzzle.

(Does anyone know what Bill Skees is doing these days?)

I have jOrgan triggering Hauptwerk as a Box of Ranks, but I am stuck with trying to get 
jOrgan Trem Tabs to switch ranks to a different MIDI channel?

One of the example dispositions may have the specific detail, but I have not yet found a 
current download.
Any documentation I can find doesn't go into that detail.

Regards
Rick                    

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-17 15:33                                          

Mark Bugeja wrote:"Perhaps I should gracefully back down and let you guys tease it out. 
I'll keep myself at a safer distance and just observe."

Hi Mark,

I hope not! You started this very long thread, and continued to contribute to it. It has 
been very productive. At least we now know what the "problem" is with the FS2 reverb, 
and don't have to just wonder about it. When I get the chance, I shall have a listen to 
the FS2 reverb again, and send in my thoughts about it.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-17 22:17

Hahaha! Really? Well, I neve'.... (trying to imitate Cockney English....)

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Graham Wykes on 2022-08-17 20:22

Hi all,
Though I'm not a "professional" sound engineer, I have a lot of experience in the field 
so I might be able to clear up a few points.

1.  jOrgan and FS need to be separated in your head.  Any synthesis engine that understands 
midi could be used with jOrgan.  It just so happens that jOrgan contains two elements 
(Fluidsynth and Linuxsampler) that makes those two synths easier to use than others.  
(I've been musing over swapping to Plogue Sforzando using the sfz format for a while but 
sfz doesn't use program changes the way soundfonts do; I'm still puzzling over how to make 
it work.  BTW it is simple to convert soundfont to sfz with polyphone.)

2.  Fluidsynth has an inbuilt reverb.  Most synths don't.   This makes using it very 
convenient. The reverb in FS is an algorithmic reverb.  It is NOT convolution and does NOT 
use impulse responses.  IMO, the problem we are having with FS reverb is a bug, regardless 
of what the developers might claim. 

This means we need to turn off the FS reverb have a way to use a different reverb

     There are a few parameters that are worth knowing about with reverbs.
          Predelay:  this sets the delay between the initial sound and when the reverb starts. 
It is analogous to the time it takes for a sound to go from an instrument to the nearest walls 
and get to the listener.
          Early:  These are the first reflections to get to the listener
          Tail or Late:  This is the part of the reverb the listener hears dying out after 
the sound has bounced around the room.

If you go  to https://bedroomproducersblog.com/2011/05/07/bpb-freeware-studio-best-free-
algorithmic-reverb-vst-plugins/ you will see a bunch of free reverb plugins.  Some are complex 
and some are super simple.
To use plugins, you need a host program. (like VSTHost).

3.  As a Linux user, I'm used to being able to route audio wherever I want using JACK.  For 
Windows users, it's not so simple. The most straightforward way is something like this:
Fluidsynth (with reverb OFF) -> VSTHost -> Plugin -  something like Orilriver reverb -> Audio 
Out from VSTHost

https://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/orilriver-by-denis-tihanov

This means you are still using FS/SF2 to synthesize your sounds but using an external program 
to provide reverb.  You'll get much better reverb this way but obviously the setup is fiddly.

My "caveat emptor" here is that I don't use windows and after 20 years as a windows system 
administrator I'm not likely to.  So those of you running windows will need to try and see if 
it works for you. I'm happy to give advice but have no way of testing.

Hope this helps.

Regards
GrahamW

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-08-17 22:07

Thanks Graham, I approve everything you wrote here.

Sven                                            

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Chester Berry on 2022-08-23 04:45                  

Rick W wrote on 2022-08-15:"If we think about the history of MIDI for a moment, we find 
a digital serial communication protocol developed for musical instruments to "talk" to each 
other. ... "    

Superb summary of what jOrgan is -- and is NOT!  Thanks for posting this!

Chester H Berry
Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-24 12:14  

Hi all,

I have managed to have some listening sessions with the Fluidsynth 2 Reverb, which is actually 
the Jot FDN Reverberator and which replaces the Freeverb program being used in the Fluidsynth 1. 
It didn't turn out quite as I had planned, taking my wife's Windows 10 laptop into the room 
where I have my home console. The issues were hardware ones, one of which I should have 
anticipated, and the other completely unexpected. But at least I was able to compare the two 
reverbs "at close quarters", and that was useful.

There are two main ways of listening to organs - close up or at some distance. Because of my 
history of mainly playing small tracker pipe organs, I am used to the close up sound, and that 
is what I prefer as a player. However, to hear the other sound, all I have to do is turn up the 
reverb LEVEL, perhaps turn down the main Volume, set the jOrgan Recorder going, and move over 
to the other side of the room, and get comfortable on the lounge chair.

I have never found the FS 1 reverb unacceptable, and one would certainly prefer it to no reverb 
at all. But it is also quite uninteresting. I am content to leave it at a fairly low level, and 
have never really understood the strong disdain that is often voiced about it on the Mailing 
List. But the moment I began to hear the reverb being used by FS 2, I could hear a big 
difference. I knew there was that disturbing cyclic modulation, but now I wanted to hear it with 
real music instead of just holding down one note at a time.

The reverb is much "cleaner" with far less ringing - almost nonexistent. But it is also far more 
interesting and satisfying. It makes me feel that the sounds are floating around in a big space, 
and I think I would be prepared to put up with the modulation in order to be experiencing this 
quite attractive sound. The type of music and the combination of stops would all affect just how 
annoying the modulation is, but my early conclusion is that I would prefer to be playing with the 
FS 2 reverb than with the FS 1 reverb. I do like the sound, and I think I could learn to put up 
with the modulation in order to have that sound. I don't think it likely that the modulation can 
be reduced just with a little tweaking. I think it likely that the designer has already set it at 
the optimal conditions.

Let's be clear on this point. The modulation is there on purpose. It is a technical device which 
greatly reduces the bugbear of ringing in synthetic reverb programs. (It can also happen in real 
acoustic settings). The ringing is quite noticeable with FS 1 reverb. It means that certain 
pitches dominate in the reverb sound. It is not noticeable with the FS 2 reverb. But as I have 
hinted, there are other improvements, which I think may be attributed partly to the fact that the 
Jot FDN Reverberator takes mono signals and uses them somehow in a stereo fashion. I think it 
sounds much more realistic.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-08-24 19:32

Thanks John,

nice to read someone praising fluidsynth 2 for once.

Best regards
Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-25 03:56

Just a reminder that I posted in Dec of last year a video about Fluidsynth 2 and the reverb... 
suggesting a serious look.
https://youtu.be/PrL8jvaF9MQ

Hi JohnR...

I agree with your thoughts.  That’s one of the reasons I am working on Qsynth for Ubuntu and 
RPi... so far I have been able to make Qsynth work on both systems.  There are some unique 
problems I am still working on... but I believe it will work. 

One more observation.  The "disturbing cyclic" sound mentioned by a few is part of the reverb 
phenomena. When there are enough controls... as in Advanced EAX... that sound can be minimized.  
However, with an intelligent speaker design it can give a thrilling effect for guys like me... 
wishing I was in Westminster Abby with the congregation singing and the organ filling the room 
with sound. 

With less good sound arraignments... I believe that it simply amounts to phase cancellation.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From M Schnell on 2022-08-26 01:01

Hi,
I'd like to try FS2 but can't find a x32 package.  My temporary VTPO is on Win7 until I move.
Anyone know if there's a 32 bit download available?

Thanks,
Mike Schnell

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-26 02:56

Hi Mike...

                ...I don't know what Organ Disposition you are using... but you can use the 
Windows version of Qsynth as the sound generator.  You connect jOrgan to Qsynth with the Generic 
Sound Element.  You have to assign the sounds... not stops to the Generic Sound Element and 
connect it to Qsynth (opened before jOrgan) with loopMIDI or the equivalent.  Then in Qsynth you 
go to Setup and in MIDI Device you select the same port you output in jOrgan.  That sends MIDI 
data to Qsynth... which is a gui for Fluidsynth 2. 

Then on the Audio tab select your Audio Driver and Audio Device... the usual other things 16bits, 
44100, 512, 8. 

On the SoundFont tab load the soundfont you are using in jOrgan and hit OK.  Restart engine YES. 

You may also want to go to Options and turn on Ouput Peak Level Meters... so you can see if Qsynth 
is generating audio. 

That's about it.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-26 04:01

With all due respect and no offence meant to anyone, if Qsynth is just a GUI for FS2, why the need 
for all this complication when you can just add FS2, kindly provided by Sven, to the lib folder 
and simply select it from the configuration tab? I have done this to my version of jOrgan 4.

Some of these posts leave me wondering whether I have missed something along the way or whether, 
at my age, I am suffering from early Alzheimer's... I hope not the latter..... 😂

Have fun!
Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-26 05:05

This is a good question Dr. Mark... 

And the answer is also simple.  It does not work.  That is... it does not work in version 3x 
of jOrgan.  I don't personally like version 4x of jOrgan.  I only use it where I have to on RPi etc.

I much prefer the controls in Qsynth... and it separates the relay and sound. 

I simply offered an alternative that I knew would work regardless of version. 

Importing 3x dispositions into 4x does not always work either. 

I also can not get a sound out of jOrgan/Fluidsynth on the RPi or Ubuntu Studio.  So I simply did 
the research until I could figure out how to use Qsynth on all 4 platforms I am working with.  I 
intend to put together a small disposition that will work on PC, Mac, Ubuntu Studio and RPi... and 
release that. 

In addition I am working on making existing definitions work with Qsynth... as an alternative.  
The reason for that is to give jOrgan a chance to be useful and evolve a little further instead of 
End Of Life.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-26 06:01

I got 3.21 version working with fluidsynth 2.2.8.

You need to replace these 3 "fluidsynth" files in the lib folder with the newer ones:

fluidsynth.jar
fluidsynthJNI.dll
jorgan.fluidsynth.Fluidsynth.h

Just tested and it works.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From MikeS on 2022-08-26 09:17                  

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the suggestion on Qsynth.  If it's just a matter of substituting files,  I should be
able to go to the Fluidsynth site, pick a 32-bit package, load it in the lib folder, and update
the backend.xml file.  As long as there is no compiling being done, it should work.  However,
I think some compiling is done on the fly when jOrgan is first loaded.  If so, I'm stuck with
FS 1.1.11 until I move.  The portaudio is working good.  I wish I had had more of an exposure to 
java/xml/make etc.  in my former job.

Thanks,
Mike Schnell

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Graham Wykes on 2022-08-26 14:36   

Hi All

A few more things that I feel need clarifying in this discussion.

The "sound engine" that produces the sound is a library called "libfluidsynth".  When a 
program needs to synthesize a sound using fluidsynth, it calls an "instance" of libfluidsynth 
passing it the parameters it needs to operate.  A program may call a number of instances and 
each is independent of the other instances. Fluidsynth is agnostic to the calling program. 
It waits for midi input and outputs audio according to its parameters - that is all.  It is 
the version of libfluidsynth we talk about as the fluidsynth version.

In the cases that are relevant here, the two common ways of invoking libfluidsynth and giving 
it parameters are jOrgan's fluidsynth element and Qsynth. Neither produces sound.  They are 
just there to call instances of fluidsynth with the parameters they are set up with by you.  
Qsynth just has a fancy GUI and more control over various parameters that aren't necessarily 
setable within  jOrgan.  So you are free to use either as suits your own ideas.

HOWEVER:

There may appear to be a difference between the two calling programs IF you have two different 
versions of libfluidsynth in your system and each program calls a different one, OR you set 
different parameters in jOrgan vs Qsynth. Perhaps they have each installed their own version 
of fluidsynth for example.

So for a valid comparison, you have to make sure you set the same parameter values in both and 
they both call the same version of fluidsynth.

Regards
GrahamW

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-26 17:35

The clear text of the .dll file "libfluidsynth" begins on line 968.   Most of the abbreviated 
terms are decipherable (as differentiated from "sightreadable").  However, the concept of 
sequencing MIDI events seems verbosely superfluous to the simplicity of an instrument, key 
press/release producing a note-on/note-off, sound.
  
I suspect that all of these intermediary programs are little more than MIDI sequencer programs 
which allow multiple instances of Channel Elements/Track Events. To conceptualize a Soundfont 
or soundbank as a small library of sounds would be more logical, in terms of those sounds being 
called/handled/applied by a program such as Fluidsynth.   The synthesizer is taking the sound 
elements (looped recordings of wave files) of the soundfont/bank and articulating the 
parameters of their playback, note-on/note-off, pitches having velocity/volume and length in 
time.  Thus, the fundamental element of a note value in music (notation) 64th,32nd,16th,8th,
4= quarter,2=half, and 1=whole, pitch note-on/note-off.   So, the basic elements of the note-on/
note-off value (length in time) of a .mid file and the assigned pitch of the wave file of the 
instrument of the preset of the soundfont/bank are the fundamentals of the MIDI system.   
Without a soundfont/bank being loaded into RAM, there will be no sound produced even though a 
note-on/note-off element of a specified length is present in the piano roll window of a midi 
sequencer program producing a .mid file, or if a key is pressed on a keyboard.  Fluidsynth is 
"there to call instances of pitched, wave files with parameters set by you" in soundfonts.  

My learning experience was that the parameters settable in QSynth were limited to Reverb and 
Chorus.  The instances of Qsynth1, Qsynth2, etc., with individual soundfonts assigned to them, 
was less than optimal in comparison to instances of Fluidsynth Sound in jOrgan . 
 
I wonder, other than the model of the orchestra, what motivated or inspired the collaboration 
to produce Musical Instrument Digital Interface?   I grew up with an acoustic piano and could 
not sightread music at all.   There is an idiomatic expression in English, "to face the music," 
 meaning to have to confront the consequences of one's actions.  "Repercussions" seems to apply 
rather aptly.   Since affordability is the factor that motivates invention and which is, often, 
a departure from the conventional, though practicable, the question of practicality or necessity 
is relevant, lest we disturb the peace.  
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-27 01:59

Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote on 2022-08-26 06:01:
"I got 3.21 version working with fluidsynth 2.2.8. ... "

Thankyou so much for this Dr. Mark...
I had forgotten about this discussion. 

I was successful in getting the 64bit version of 3.21 to work... however the 32 bit version is 
non functional with the "newer" versions of these files. 

Which brings me to the question... which one did you test?  The list question was about the 32bit 
version.  I wonder if the new files will work on 32bit.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-27 02:02      ++81

Graham Wykes wrote on 2022-08-26 14:36:
"A few more things that I feel need clarifying in this discussion ... "

Thanks Graham... 

This is very helpful.  Someone needs to write a technical manual.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-27 09:37

On 26/08/2022 17:59, Marc-Paul via jOrgan-user wrote:
"I wonder if the new files will work on 32bit."

I use 64x of everything.                        MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Downloading to Raspberry Pi3 +                  

From Gavin Kieser on 2022-07-25 23:28

Hi,

Please can you help. I'm trying to download Jorgan to my raspberry Pi which has Java 11 
installed on it. Nothing happens when I try to download Jorgan. The only download I can 
find is jOrgan 3.21.1 dmg, however I believe there is a Jorgan 4.0 Beta2, But I can find 
this to download. I also believe that I need  to download Fluidsynth. Is this correct?  
Please advise.

Kind regards
Gavin

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-07-26 00:37

Here you find the package(s) for the Pi

https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-rpi/4.0/

Sven                            

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Gavin Kieser on 2022-07-26 15:44                        

Thank you Sven. I have now downloaded jOrgan

Kind regards
Gavin                  

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Gavin Kieser on 2022-07-29 20:18

Hi everyone,

I have been following these emails with interest, and I have seen comments about 
"amateurs", and it would seem to me from the technical discussion that has been 
going on, that none of you are real amateurs!. You all seem very technically 
proficient. Well I'm the real deal amateur.  

Can I assume from your discussion that fluidsynth isn't working with jOrgan 4.0 Beta1? 
If so, is this just a problem on windows or does this also affect the Raspberry Pi 
system, which I'm using. 

I'm just finding my way around jOrgan (slowly) and have managed to download the 
American organ. I can now get my keyboards recognised by Jorgan, and will have no 
problem eventually getting thumb pistons etc recognised. Various Help sites have 
been a great help in this regard. What I can't fix is the lack of sound,with the 
problems Tab in jorgan continually coming up with  " fluidsynth failure"

Any thoughts?

Kind regards
Gavin

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-07-29 23:15

Gavin, since the problem of amplitude modulation with respect to the reverb LEVEL 
element in jOrgan Fluidsyth version 2.1 affects everyone who uses it, the new Fluidsynth 
version 2.2.8, being incorporated with new releases of jOrgan for all operating systems, 
would, also, affect everyone who would use it.   If you are just starting out with jOrgan, 
and have chosen Paul Stratman's American Classic Organ, you might want to download the 
jOrgan 3.21 version and the older portaudio backend file that goes with your system.  
That way, you would avoid the problem with the reverb.  Our hope is that the latest 
version of Fluisynth may have addressed the problem of amplitude modulation with respect 
to the LEVEL element setting being anywhere above 0.05 or so, which caused a very 
pronounced, and highly audible warped-loop of the wave files.  It has a ruinous effect, 
particularly, with many stops engaged.  While the use of Qsynth control panel and, with it, 
the installed version of Fluidsynth 2.2.1 is an improvement, it has some limitations with 
respect to the use of multiple soundfonts and MIDI channel assignments vis-à-vis bank numbers. 
 
Eventually, jOrgan would have to have the newest version of Fluidsynth incorporated, anyway, 
so it is good that we are concerning ourselves with it, now.
 
"The lack of sound" you describe, probably, has to do with the audio driver (dsound/portaudio), 
in Construct Mode of jOrgan, the Fluidsynth Sound Source element Properties tab, try dsound, 
first, and select your audio output device (probably, soundcard speakers) and load the 
soundfont (ACO 7.0.sf2?).  Make sure the audio buffers and size 8/512 are the same in 
Customizer (file menu) and the Fluidsynth Sound Source tab and that sample rate 44,100 and 
polyphone 512 in the Fluidsynth Sound Source (soundfont) are the settings.
 
Good Luck and welcome!
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-30 02:35

Ensure the correct version of Java (32x or 64x) depending on which jOrgan you installed.

Regards
Mark                    MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Qsynth                  

From John Beach on 2022-07-25 21:45

Marc-Paul,  consistently, I have a problem with Qsynth having a "failed  to create 
the MIDI driver (winmidi)" when attempting to create the instances of Qsynth necessary 
for each of the soundfonts of a jOrgan disposition that must be opened on the Soundfonts 
tab of the Qsynth Setup windows for each instance Qsynth1, Qsynth 2, etc.

It seems that it will not allow more than one Qsynth instance to complete setup with 
the MIDI driver winmidi.  
 
Are there required channel settings that determine whether the winmidi driver is created, 
properly?
 
Thanks,
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-26 02:49

John B...
             ...I have had that problem occasionally.  I have been unable to exactly nail 
down why that happens.  I am not sure if it's the order things are started in or if the 
system see's the midi driver in use somewhere else.  It was most noticeable when I was 
experimenting with Jack. 

My only consistent observation is that occasionally one of the instance settings will be 
incorrect upon restart and I have to correct it and restart Qsynth... not just the engine. 

My issue usually disappears on restart of the computer. 
 

Usually when I start Qsynth my previous instants show up and work without intervention.  
My MIDI Device setting seems to remain OK.  This is on Win11Pro. 

Sorry I can't be of more help.
Marc-Paul
 
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-26 06:55

Marc-Paul,

I also am having problems with getting Qsynth to work, in my case on a Windows 10 
(Home version). I get a message saying that it has failed to create WASAPI. I suspect 
that the computer may be the problem, as I have not found a way to get WASAPI active. 
It probably is no difficulty with Windows 10 Pro.

The way forward here may be that users who do have success with Qsynth (even just one 
instance) report on whether they hear a big improvement in the reverb. John Beach has 
given us one such report. I was planning to give my own report, but I do not have the 
time to address my Qsynth problem. I might say that I have had no trouble on previous 
occasions, but that was with earlier versions of Qsynth.

If we receive one or more favourable reports on how the "new" reverb sounds, then I hope 
that Sven will release some new jOrgan versions which install the latest version of 
Fluidsynth.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-26 10:06                      

JohnR...

WASAPI seems to want the sound card driver to NOT be in exclusive mode...
that's in control panel Sound.

In Qsynth I could then select WASAPI and Audio Device: default... and NOT
check the WASAPI Exclusive Mode on that window.

I then had no problem with jOrgan sending audio via WASAPI.

The sound card in this machine is a SoundBlaster X-fi.

This is on a Win10 machine.  Actually and older Dell XPS 420 that's still
real solid.

Hope this helps...

Cheers
Marc-Paul                               MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Dispositions w/qsynth Raspberry, Windows, Mac                   

From Marc-Paul on 2022-07-30 09:31

I am just about done with a small disposition that I can release that will work 
with Qsynth on Raspberry Pi, Windows and Mac.  (jOrgan 3.21)
 

The only thing that I need is a Midi Loop Back or Virtual Cable for the Raspberry Pi.  
So far it seems I need to link Alsa and Jack… I haven’t quite got that right. 

Anyone have experience with something that works?

Cheers
Marc-Paul 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-30 22:09

Marc-Paul,

I have never needed a virtual cable to connect jOrgan to Jack using jOrgan on an RPi. 
All one has to do is to have jackd installed, and use the command line qjackctl to 
start it. The Fluidsynth audio driver has to be set to "jack" before jack will start.

I must admit that on the RPi 4B which I am using as a desktop, I have just tried this 
out, and all I get is distortion. On the other hand, I have used jack with success for 
years using the RPi 3B+ for my console installation.

So I am giving a very mixed message.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc on 2022-07-30 23:16

Thanks JohnR...
                             ...I have no trouble with audio either Jack or Alsa... 
I can play the soundfont in Qsynth remotely and check.

The issue is a virtual midi cable so the midi keying can be sent to Qsynth from jOrgan.  
I have found a couple implementations but I don't quite understand how to do it yet.  
I want to provide complete instructions for all three platforms.

I do have a question for you... what sound card are you using with your Raspberry?

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-31 03:37

I thought I'd see what Qsynth is all about.
Is Qsynth available for Win10?
What does one do with a ***.tar.gz file?

Sorry if the questions sound stupid.... but.... if I don't know, I ask. I've been like that 
since my school days much to the consternation of my friends in class.... and the teachers 
(you? again?)....... hahaha!

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-31 16:39

Marc-Paul wrote:"The issue is a virtual midi cable ..."
                "what sound card are you using with your Raspberry?"

Marc-Paul,

The RPi, along probably with other Linux distributions, seems to have virMIDI already. 
A large number of cables (?) turn up when you use page 1 of the jOrgan customizer, 
along with other options. I have never had to use them, and cannot give any advice 
except to use Google searches, starting with "virMIDI".

On the RPi 4B I use as a desktop, I simply use the internal soundcard.
On my console RPi 3B+, I use a DAC HAT which I think is no longer available, but now 
RPi seem to be marketing their own.

I should add that a few months ago I saw an RPi announcement to the effect that they 
are no longer supporting the RPi 3B+ and are concentrating on the RPi 4 or some of the 
"mini" RPi cards. This seems to have obvious implications as to how long the RPi 3B+ 
will be available.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-07-31 16:47                  

Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote:"Is Qsynth available for Win10?"
                         "What does one do with a ***.tar.gz file?"

Yes. Use Google Search to find their website.

It is a compressed Linux file. Look for the ***.zip file.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-07-31 17:38

I downloaded it from sourceforge (no zip or exe files that I could see on their website).
I installed it already but cannot figure out what to do with it. I have loopMIDI too.
I am too busy to look into Panos' instructions (God bless his soul) of how to set up 
loopMIDI, virtual cables etc.

Mark                    

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-01 01:12                        

Thankyou JohnR...
                              ...I believe my issue is that I am still using
the Raspberry 2.

I will look into the Rapsberry 4.

Any suggestions as to the configuration would be helpful.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-01 09:33

Marc-Paul wrote:"Any suggestions as to the configuration would be helpful."

Hi Marc-Paul,

I'm not sure what else I can add at this point. I have no problem using jOrgan on my 
RPi 4B desktop. However, I have no experience with Qsynth, and I certainly haven't 
had success with it on my RPi 4B. I have tried.

What troubles me is that although the jOrgan Customizer detects all those virMIDI 
cables, Qsynth does not.

However, there is a virMIDI webpage which you could explore:
https://github.com/samwho/jarvis/blob/master/README_virmidi.md

There are others a Google search brought up, such as:
https://alsa.opensrc.org/Virmidi

Or perhaps you can find another Linux vertual cable that is suitable.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-01 09:37

JohnR...
           ...I have ordered a 4B and will look forward to getting
everything working.

Thanks
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-01 09:38

Qsynth played from the Jack Keyboard one note at a time and one stop at a
time sounds good.  So I am still hopeful that this will work out good.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-01 09:54

Marc-Paul wrote:"Qsynth played from the Jack Keyboard one note at a time and one stop at a
time sounds good."

Can you set the Reverb Level to 20 and the Room to 95, then hold a note down (one stop 
only), and tell us if you can hear that cyclic modulation about one every second?

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-01 10:52

OK... had the routing thru Fluidsynth instead of Qsynth.

With the 8' Montre stop on I hear the sample cycling but nothing like
"Chorus".

Was that your question?

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-01 11:03                  

Marc-Paul wrote:"With the 8' Montre stop on I hear the sample cycling".

Hi Marc-Paul,

That's not the answer I was hoping to hear!

I'm not interested in Chorus, and I don't even know what it should sound like.
Thanks very much for trying it out.

Best wishes,
JohnR                   MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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RPi "no valid disposition"              

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-03 04:04

JohnR or anyone that knows about Pi..

            .reinstalled the OS on Raspberry Pi 2 and using jOrgan 3.2.1B3.
jOrgan 4 won't install. 

When I create a small disposition and attempt to open it after shutting down
it says "no valid disposition". 

Do you have any idea what I am doing wrong? 

Thanks

Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-03 14:39

Marc-Paul wrote:"…reinstalled the OS on Raspberry Pi 2 and using jOrgan
3.2.1B3.  jOrgan 4 won't install.

When I create a small disposition and attempt to open it after
shutting down it says 'no valid disposition'.  "

Marc-Paul,

By "raspberry Pi 2", do you mean RPi 3B+, or is it RPi 4 B?

There is only one official jOrgan version for RPi these days.
It is jorgan_4.0.Beta3_armhf.deb . Is that what you are using? It should work on the 
RPi 3 B+ and also on the RPi 4B.

I don't recognise 3.21.1 B3. Is it an early jOrgan version meant for the RPi? Only 
files which contain "armhf" can be expected to work with the RPi.

Please reply before I go further on your problems.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-04 05:04

JohnR..
             ..I mis-spoke.
I did have the version 4 for Raspberry installed.  It just won't start.  The Java version is 8 and 9.
I finally disassembled the Pi and found it is a 3B+.

I attempted a start from the command line and here is what was displayed.
Java 8:
i@raspberrypi:/usr/lib/jorgan $ sudo java -jar jorgan.jar
Error: A JNI error has occurred, please check your installation and try again
Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsupportedClassVersionError: jorgan/bootstrap/Bootstrap has been compiled by a more recent version of the Java Runtime (class file version 55.0), this version of the Java Runtime only recognizes class file versions up to 52.0
    at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass1(Native Method)
    at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass(ClassLoader.java:756)
    at java.security.SecureClassLoader.defineClass(SecureClassLoader.java:142)
    at java.net.URLClassLoader.defineClass(URLClassLoader.java:473)
    at java.net.URLClassLoader.access$100(URLClassLoader.java:74)
    at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:369)
    at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:363)
    at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
    at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(URLClassLoader.java:362)
    at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:418)
    at sun.misc.Launcher$AppClassLoader.loadClass(Launcher.java:352)
    at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:351)
    at sun.launcher.LauncherHelper.checkAndLoadMain(LauncherHelper.java:601)
pi@raspberrypi:/usr/lib/jorgan $

Java 9:
pi@raspberrypi:/usr/lib/jorgan $ java -jar jorgan.jar
Error: LinkageError occurred while loading main class jorgan.bootstrap.Bootstrap
    java.lang.UnsupportedClassVersionError: jorgan/bootstrap/Bootstrap has been compiled 
by a more recent version of the Java Runtime (class file version 55.0), this version of 
the Java Runtime only recognizes class file versions up to 53.0
pi@raspberrypi:/usr/lib/jorgan $

I can't seem to find a later version of Java for the RPi... obviously I have missed 
something important.

BTW... Qsynth for the RPi does not include Fluidsynth 2.  I have found it mentioned 
that it can be compiled for the Raspberry... I am still checking that out.
Thanks for the help...

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-08-04 06:40

Hi Marc-Paul,

you'll need Java 11.

It should be the default version on Raspi:

https://phoenixnap.com/kb/install-java-raspberry-pi

Regards
Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-04 08:09

Thanks Sven..
                      ..but I have been to that website already and my 3B+ does not 
update past Java 9.

I will continue to see what I can figure out.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-04 08:15

Sven Meier wrote:"you'll need Java 11."

Hi Sven,

I have noticed that the default version of Java for the RPi  is 11.  As a matter of 
interest, do your words mean that Java version 8 (RPi version) will not work with the 
RPi for jOrgan? (That does seem to be the case for Marc-Paul, although of course, 
there may be other issues in play.)

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-04 08:35                  

Hi Sven,

I see that Raspberry Pi are now referring to their official OS as the "Raspberry Pi OS", 
and that a 64-bit version is available that is compatible with all RPi models.

https://www.raspberrypi.com/software/operating-systems/

Is our 32-bit version of jOrgan for the RPi likely to work OK on that 64-bit version?

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-08-04 08:40

No, it won't work.

The native parts are compiled for 32-bit currently.
I'd advise to stick to 32-bit Pi OS for now.

Regards
Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-08-04 08:40

JohnR wrote:"do your words mean that Java version 8 (RPi version) will not work with the 
RPi for jOrgan?"

Yes, it won't work:

I've compiled jOrgan on my Raspi with Java 11, so you'll need that same version 
at least.

Regards
Sven     

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-08-04 08:42                     

What is the ouput of the following:

        cat /etc/os-release

Regards
Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-04 11:23              

Sven & JohnR... 

While I can diagnose a Mac or PC in a few minutes... my Linux skills are limited.  
Which is why I am trying to create the same small disposition on 3 platforms and 
learn more about the RPi. 

My mistake was thinking that I was installing the current Raspberry OS.  I was not.  
The installer errored out and didn't update. 

I am downloading the newest OS from rapsberrypi.com and installing it now. 

I expect that everything will work as it should... and my new RPi4 comes tomorrow. 
          MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Fluidsynth Reverb LEVEL

From JohnB on 2022-08-06 00:17

Even more specifically, I believe that the setting of the  Depth2, CC#92  is the problem, 
since CC91# is the Switch which turns on (0 or 127, 1 or 128) and the setting 1-128 
regulates the LEVEL of Depth2 (CC#92) which effectuates tremolo in Reverb, which is what 
I describe as  "amplitude modulation" of the soundfont wave file, the looped-cycling that 
we find so objectionable.  This is what is causing the problem.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-06 03:38

The Fluidsynth Reverb LEVEL problem is independent of the settings in the soundfont 
instrument for MOD LFO Frequency and VIB LFO Frequency which are used for both, Tremulant 
Rate and for the Wind Vibrato (14.285Hz), of Flexible Wind in jOrgan.   I proved this by 
using the Fluidsynth-example file that is a standard inclusion of the download package 
in jOrgan.  Leaving both the MOD LFO Frequency and VIB LFO Frequency settings at 0, I 
added the reverb elements to the Fluidsynth-example disposition and played both Stop 0 
and Stop 1 with the Room, Width, Damping and Level settings at 92, 64, 44,
and 0.01 to 1.0, respectively and the looped-cycling of the wave file is just as prominent 
and noticeable. 
 
What seems apparent is that the Depth2 (CC#92) is set to an amount which, regardless of a 
setting of 1 or 127, does NOT cause the problem of looped-cycling, warp and woof in 
versions of fluidsynth prior to 2.0 and of jOrgan prior to version 3.2, approximately.   
Was some change made to the software stipulating a higher Depth2 rate in the later 
versions and that may be why we hear the difference?
 
I can not cause this effect using a General Sound Soundfont with factory preset parameters 
in the instruments and using my midi sequencer program which has the capability to specify 
continuous controllers and their depths.  What I hear, audibly, is that CC91 effectuates 
the activation of the Reverb Effect, (0 or 127, OFF or ON), but does NOT change the amount 
of reverb if a lower number than 127 is entered as a value setting.  The Depth2 does affect 
the amount of Reverb effect, but it is so slight as to be, hardly, discernible.  This may 
depend on the parameter settings of the individual instrument in the soundfont.  Perhaps, 
the problem is that, in MIDI electronics, we are limited to the wave file as the fundamental 
actuator and the midi system is trying to create a simulation (using electronics) of a 
natural phenomenon that is, physically, relative to the properties of a space.  I don't 
believe you can, digitally,  process an  instrument wave file by the parameters of an 
Impulse Response wave file and expect to get a coherent steady-state sound between attack 
and release that remains unmodulated by the disparities in the two wave files.   If wave 
file length in seconds is a variable problem affecting frequency, we must know the optimum 
length of a wave file and the optimum loop points that would prevent cycling in the steady-
state.  Again, since this problem does NOT exist in the settings of Creative EAX, it must be 
soluble by a change in the maximum-allowable setting of the CC#92 Depth2 of Reverb. 
 
I think the reverb environment has to exist, separately, from the wave file (actuator) of the 
soundfont parameters, the latter, being what actuates and is acted upon by the parameter 
settings which
distort the wave. 
 
I hope this is not "as clear as mud."  
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-06 04:50

Using a counter (not a slider) for the Fluidsynth Reverb settings, with the settings of 
ROOM and WIDTH at 1.0 (FULL), and Damping at 64, the LEVEL must be 0.03 or less in order 
to eliminate the looped-cycling of the effect.  Higher settings merely increase the 
amplitude (volume) of the looped cycling of the wave file sound. 
 
I don't know if these observations are of any value to Sven, but, again, since the problem 
is unique to the use of Fluidsynth WITH jOrgan, it has something to do with the way it is 
treated by jOrgan as different from Polyphone. 
 
I don't think there is anything more that I can add that would be of help.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-08-06 05:21

Hi John,

John Beach wrote:”problem is unique to the use of Fluidsynth WITH jOrgan

there isn't anything unique to the usage of fluidsynth from jOrgan.
Qsynth shows the same problem with the reverb.
> it has something to do with the way it is treated by jOrgan as different from Polyphone. 
Does Polyphone use fluidsynth at all? I can't find any proof of that, to me it seems 
Polyphone uses it's own sound engine:

https://github.com/davy7125/polyphone/tree/master/sources/sound_engine
Regards
Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-06 06:42

So why has there been so much discussion over the use of Qsynth as an alternative to FS?

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-08-06 07:06

Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote:"So why has there been so much discussion over the use of 
Qsynth as an alternative to FS?"

... because with Qsynth you can use whatever fluidsynth version comes with it.

With a custom jOrgan backend you have the same possibility.

Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-08-06 07:12

Dr. Mark Bugeja MD wrote:"Can't this sound engine be used with jOrgan? It seems there 
are no license issues to prohibit its use or even its modification

Sven Meier wrote:"it seems Polyphone uses it's own sound engine"

I'm not even sure about the validity of my statement, I just didn't find any trace 
of fluidsynth in polyphone.

There are many possibilities, probably each has its drawbacks too.

Sven

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-06 08:41

Perhaps we ought to give it a try...

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-06 11:28

Sven, I was using the "If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck and it quacks
like a duck, it is, probably, a duck"........that is, from looking at the "synth" tab 
in Polyphone, the controls, although "dial-style," are ROOM, WIDTH, DAMPING and LEVEL 
and have the same number of positions (about 9 positions above 0, similar to the classic 
skin, slider size in jOrgan).   I believe that the developer of Polyphone, Dave Tripponey, 
monitors jOrgan's forum, or, at least, he has in the past.  Perhaps, he could tell us 
what the reverb elements are with respect to the sound engine that is used in Polyphone.  
If it is not Fluidsynth, no matter.   There has to be some way of determining whether 
the problem is in the CC92 Depth2  entries in the software.   I think that looking 
elsewhere is a wild goose chase.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-06 11:31

Qsynth is nothing more than the graphic user interface (GUI) for Fluidsynth.  I believe 
the current download uses Fluidsynth 2.2.6, not 2.2.8.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-06 22:48             

In mentioning my use of a midi sequencer program to test out the midi reverb with 
a General Sound soundfont, I, erroneously, stated that the CC#91 (Reverb Amount) 
was a switch that turned the reverb ON and OFF and that CC#92 controlled the Depth2 
of reverb.  That is incorrect.  CC#91 effectuates the AMOUNT of reverb from 0 to 127 
in the mixer settings of my sequencer program.  The Depth2, while defined by the 
MIDI Specification as "controls the amount of tremolo, has no perceptible effect, 
which may be due to parameter settings in the instrument of the soundfont ,
i.e., MOD LFO or VIB LFO Frequencies which set the amount (as we know from the use 
of them with the Tremolo Switch Filters in jOrgan). 
 
 
MIDI CC 91      Effect 1 Depth  Usually a control for reverb in your instrument.
MIDI CC 92      Effect 2 Depth  Usually a control for the amount of tremolo.
MIDI CC 93      Effect 3 Depth  Usually a control for the amount of chorus.
MIDI CC 94      Effect 4 Depth  Usually a control for the amount of detuning.
MIDI CC 95      Effect 5 Depth  Usually a control for the amount of phasing.
 
 
Sorry for any confusion that I may have caused.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *










































Fluidsynth SoundFont Discussion  

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-06 09:42

First... here is a relevant discussion of the issue... well anyway it seems to me: 

https://github.com/FluidSynth/fluidsynth/issues/149 

The short of it is this:
"I just noted that there is a pattern to your informative logging. It seems that the 
problem samples have a loop end value which extends beyond the length of the sample."

There is a solution proposed and tested in the rest of the text.
I wish to thank Sven for his continued expertise and support of... and I count myself 
in this: "mürrische alte Männer"

Please laugh here.

Regards

Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-06 11:50

Hi all,

Marc-Paul wrote:"here is a relevant discussion of the issue… "

The most recent post in that Fluidsynth discussion seems to have been in August 2017. 
Does anyone know when Fluidsynth 2 was released?

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-06 14:55

Fluidsynth 2.0 Beta 1 was, first, released in May, 2018.   Fluidsynth 2.0.0 was released 
on September 14, 2018.

FROM THE jORGAN ARCHIVES OF 2018:  jOrgan 4.0 came out in 2018, also.

                                                                MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Raspberry Pi Issues      

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-14 01:57

I did a fresh install of the current Bullseye on my RPi 3B+.

Installed jOrgan.
I can open jOrgan but not save a disposition.
I moved the jOrgan files to Public as I would on a Mac. 

jOrgan opens fine and I can create a disposition from a soundfont and save it.
I can communicate to the RPi from another computer sending from jOrgan to jOrgan via Lan. 

I have no Fluidsynth showing up in jOrgan in View/Configuration. 

I can play a soundfont in Qsynth from the Jack Keyboard… so I know that Fluidsynth is 
installed on the RPi.  The soundfont does not sound correctly… but if  I load a GM 
sound font it plays fine from the Jack Keyboard on any of three sound outputs… HDMI, 
Internal or SoundBlaster USB. 

Here is what jOrgan says no matter how or where I start it from:
Aug 13, 2022 10:36:42 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_OPEN_FILE action is not supported on the current platform!
Aug 13, 2022 10:36:43 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_QUIT_HANDLER action is not supported on the current platform!
Aug 13, 2022 10:36:43 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_PREFERENCES action is not supported on the current platform!
Aug 13, 2022 10:36:43 AM jorgan.gui.OrganFrame withDesktop
WARNING: The APP_ABOUT action is not supported on the current platform!
 
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-16 10:07

Raspberry Pi 3B+ running Raspbian 11 “Bullseye” 

I continue to be interested in Qsynth for multiple reasons… not the least of which 
is that jOrgan is indeed a relay.  Having installed a number of digital relays on pipe 
organs… of various manufacture… you wouldn’t confuse the relay with the pipes… now 
would you. 

I have never been able to get Fluidsynth in jOrgan on the RPi to issue a sound… so I 
was motivated to get Qsynth to work. 

2.1.7 is the version of Fluidsynth reported by the command line. 

We need to merge Alsa and Jack to get jOrgan to send midi data to Qsynth.  That turns out 
not to be very difficult… after about a hundred failed attempts and 2 weeks of trying I 
realized that Qjackctl  / Graph is color coded.  And some Virtual cables are provided by 
the system. 

We must merge Alsa and Jack…  first start Jack without midi.
Then command line a2jmidid.  If not installed… do so from the repository. 

Start Qsynth and use Jack as Midi and Audio.  The rest of the settings are 
normal for jOrgan. 

Make sure to install your soundfont. 

Start jOrgan… mine is in the “Public” folder as it wouldn’t work anywhere else.  
(java -jar jorgan.jar) 

Use Generic Sound Element and set the output to “VirMidi 1.0.0”

Go back to Jack Graph and connect VirMidi  1-0 on the left to Qsynth.  (red) 

When you play keys with stops on you will see midi data going into Qsynth1.  I also have 
the audio meters displayed so I know audio is going out. 

It is much easier to adjust the Reverb on Qsynth… I use a high Damp factor to avoid some 
of the issues mentioned by all. 

So far I have only one instance of Qsynth working… but I hope to have at least 3 
working soon. 

Happy Times & 

Please all feel Gratitude for jOrgan and Sven!
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Sven Meier on 2022-08-17 05:42

Hi Marc-Paul,

"I have no Fluidsynth showing up in jOrgan in View/Configuration."

there isn't anything related to Fluidsynth in jOrgan's configuration.

Have you tried opening the fluidsynth-example.disposition that comes with the jOrgan package?

Please check the "Problems" view in jOrgan and the log file in ~/.jorgan/app.log

Regards
Sven                    MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Pipedreams on the Auditorium Organ 

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-14 02:04

A note of general interest. 

This week on PipeDreams (pipedreams.org)  the featured organ is the RLDS (Community 
of Christ) 1959 Aeolian-Skinner. (Excellent picture also.) 

There are interviews with John Obetz included.  The very first work on the program 
made me stop realize the majesty of what we all love. 

Cheers
Marc-Paul

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jOrgan and FS   

From steve on 2022-08-14 19:02

Hello everyone.

I only had one comment on all this, I hope that any alternative to FS will work with 
my Linux Mint SO. I have been using jOrgan for over 10 years and have had few problems.  
All the soundfonts I have downloaded such as the English Cathedral sample set work well 
on my system as well as the 40 rank Wurlitzer I have made.

I must also say I am using jOrgan 3.21.1 and the matching FS

Steve Rowley.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-14 23:55

Hi Steve...
                 ...I am also using jOrgan 3.21.1.  I'd love to hear some details about 
your setup.  Sound card and any particular Organ you patterned your Wurlitzer after.

Cheers
Marc-Paul                       MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Windows vs other   

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-18 19:48

GrahamW wrote:'My "caveat emptor" here is that I don't use windows and after 20 years as a windows 
system administrator I'm not likely to.  So those of you running windows will need to 
try and see if it works for you. I'm happy to give advice but have no way of testing.

Hope this helps.'

Hi Graham W et al,

I have just now installed a 4TB SSD (sata) and I was thinking of installing Zorin as OS.

 From what I make out, this is a glorified Linux OS but capable of rendering the familiar 
Windows features. This is important to me as I cannot understand the linux lingo often 
discussed. It's like writing instructions in DOS. Even the names are ultra confusing, 
such things as puppy, wine..... are there crisps and cheeses, cats or mice? Sorry.... 
these are not meant to mock the system.... it's that I find them hilarious, but sadly 
no logic behind them.... you either know what they are or mean or you don't. Defrag is 
a logical name as it almost describes what it is supposed to do.... I would remember that 
forever but when it comes to Linux I am scared out of my wits as I feel I become completely 
helpless should I need to troubleshoot or do something. I won't know where to begin and 
what direction I have to take and also I am very reluctant to learn computer code to do 
things! If Zorin is what I believe it to be, having always used Windows since it first came 
out, then I think I should be fine and dry.

Which version of jOrgan should I be installing? Linux?
If Zorin allows the smooth running of Windows programs, then can I install jOrgan for 
Windows as I normally do?

Initially, and just to make sure I do have a good experience with zorin, I plan to keep 
the original HDD with Windows and run the SSD OS by selecting it at boot-up. That way I can 
choose what to keep using until I make a permanent change to the new OS or revert back to 
the old by installing Win 10 on the SSD (and scrap Zorin altogether).

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Roy Radford on 2022-08-18 23:13

Hi, Mark,

              So far as I'm aware there are no cats in Puppy Linux but you CAN use a mouse with it!

   
      Have fun,

            Roy. (UK)

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-19 00:12

Roy,  good to know you are still breathing air over there.  I was wondering how you were 
doing since we had not heard from you in a while.
 
Cheerio,
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Roy Radford on 2022-08-19 00:37

Hi, John,

              Oh yes, still alive from the neck down!   *:)) laughing

   Actually my rig is frozen back in the Jurassic era, I'm fast approaching 84 years young 
and not doing much playing or tinkering these days, probably forgotten how I got the 
contraption to work in the first place by now!. I have very little to offer the group as 
my interest is entirely in orchestral, rather than pipe organs and I have no use for 
Fluidsynth, which seems to be the main topic of discussions here. I use an ancient version 
of jOrgan running under Linux Mint to drive a couple of Edirol SD-20 MIDI modules. The 
system does pretty much all I need so I tend to agree with our friends across The Pond, 
if it ain't broke don't fix it!

   Had a medical scare recently, low sodium level. After the usual stuff doctors do he 
offered the comforting advice, "If you start feeling unwell, go straight to hospital."

   OK so far and still as daft as ever!   *:)) laughing

      Have fun,

            Roy. (UK)

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-19 10:09

Hi Roy,Indeed..... you still pack a great punch!

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Lynn Walls on 2022-08-19 04:37

Mark,

Zorin Linux may not be what you are hoping for.  Zorin *IS* linux.  Zorin is just another 
linux implementation -- like Red Hat, or Ubuntu, or Puppy, or SUSE, or Fedora, or Mint, or 
Debian, or any of the other multitude of linux packagers. Only Zorin's customized display 
screens attempt to emulate the Windows-like APPEARANCE.

You will still have to use Wine (for linux) if you want to run any software built for real 
Windows. Remember: only under the thinnest of visual displays will you see anything Windows-
like.  Zorin is just another linux distribution.

See here:
https://www.stackscale.com/blog/popular-linux-distributions/

Zorin is just another linux distribution!!!

CLW

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-19 09:53

I did mention that myself ie it is Linux.

What I hope for is not having to meddle with code to implement what I need to do.

If I can get to run jOrgan, GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk, I think I'd be happy as I shall be 
using it on my organ computer only.

Why Zorin? A friend of mine who I consider a computer geek and familiar with Windows and 
Linux has had nothing but praise for this OS and made it sound a perfect alternative to 
Windows. Since I have blind faith (well almost) in what he said, I thought I should give 
it a try once the opportunity arose and got myself another drive installed. If the worst 
comes to the worst, I will clone my current windows based HDD onto the 4TB drive and carry 
on using Windows as I have done ever since I started using computers (with the exception 
of the brief initial stint using MSX Spectravideo..... but that was at the dawn of modern 
home computer technology some 40+ years ago.... I don't think Windows existed then).

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-19 10:53

Since I posted last, the installation process froze. It seems like others have experienced 
the same and the solution reads like this:

When you try to install Ubuntu on the same Windows disk, Ubiquity is stopped on the Updates 
and other Software screen. So far the solution is to open the GNOME Disks application, and 
unmount and mount the Windows boot partition several times.

When rebooting the installer displays a message that partitions are mounted and if you want 
Ubiquity to unmount them. When answering Yes, the installation continues.

See what I mean...... open the GNOME Disks application, unmount and mount..... What in God's 
name is GNOME? How do I do what's recommended? The solution itself poses more questions than 
the answer it is supposed to deliver.

In short... abandon ship! Forget Linux. It's got a loooong way to go for me! I haven't even 
started Zorin and the experience is already a bad one.... God knows what would be in store 
later even if I managed to get through this one. I want a relaxed retirement playing the 
organs I have collected over some 10 years, not one riddled with computer issues and more 
troubleshooting than playing!

Back to Windows I go.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-08-19 12:29

Hi Dr Mark, 

To be fair Linux is not for everyone. Sometimes it just works other times you have issues
 like you are encountering. For those non-technical windows is the best option. Install java 
and off you go with jOrgan. Those that like to get into the nitty gritty then Linux might be 
an option as well. 

If you need any assistance though and opt to try Linux again let me know and I can show you 
what I have installed and even assist you in installing it. 

Regards,
Jonathan Aquilina

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-20 16:27

Thanks Jonathan,

I have already cloned my system onto a new SSD and set things up. As you say, Linux is not for 
everyone and, though I once did manage to set a laptop up with some version of this OS, I could 
never solve issues that cropped up from time to time. Even the software the equivalent of Word 
and Excel were a far cry from what I was used to.... and all the more now. I am pretty much 
glued to Windows and it not worth the hassle of changing once it has served me so well for so 
long. If I knew I would live another hundred years, I might just be bold enough to give Linux 
another try.... 😉.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Kevin J King on 2022-08-19 15:24                   

Hi Mark,  Hauptwerk will not run on Linux at all. Perhaps I'd suggest a windows partition for Hauptwerk?

Regards
Kevin 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-19 20:50                     

 
First, this is not a criticism, just an observation from having attempted, perhaps, a dozen 
times to make use of older, outdated desktops which, upgrades in operating systems,  caused 
to be relegated to the garbage dump while they were, still, in perfectly good, working condition.  
 
One of the values of certain of the versions of Linux is that they will work with older, 
outdated hardware (MMX as contrasted with SSE2 in processors), which seems to have been the 
significant dividing line between  Windows (DOS) 3.1, 95, 98 and XP  (NT, 4.0), Windows 7,8, 
and 10 and, now, 11.   This may not be precise, but, no matter, Linux's versatility is the point.
 
The preparation of a hard drive for installation of Linux requires the downloading and burning 
to installation disk or flash drive of the G-Part formatting and partitioning tool, and the same 
for the operating system to be installed.  While, usually, these will go, somewhat,  normally, 
they will, often, run from the installation disk instead of installing permanently on the hard 
drive. 
 
In the initial boot sequence to install, the entire load processes in Linux are shown, scrolling, 
as they are successful,  or fail.  The sheer volume of information and the speed of it, as it is 
installed, make you wonder why it would be shown to any purpose at all.   Here is where the 
intimidation of Linux begins and, with the structural organization of the Root Drive, the 
confident and adept Windows user is, literally, lost to know where the parts of installed 
programs are located. 
 
There seems to be a lack of clear, concise, packaged information that describes for the would-be 
Linux user the structure of the Linux system, where application folders and files are, such that 
it is as comprehensible and user-friendly as Windows.   After Linux has installed, it is the 
process of installing other programs that is bewildering.  I have found Linux to be so 
frustrating that I have given up.
 
Linux is the "whole that equals the sum of its parts" and, unfortunately, it is the parts that 
seem to get lost in the shuffle.   There is, always, the requirement of an md checksum for the 
validity of packaged applications,  and installations seem to be lacking some related part or 
need the internet to be able to update or download the most recent version of a file.  These 
aspects or conditions for the use of Linux are a discouragement, even to someone who is familiar 
with the content of programs.  Once installed, the individual parts seem to be located in 
different folders of the Root drive and finding them for purposes of, for example, audio driver 
installation, was problematic. 
 
I have come to believe that the developers of Linux are not overly concerned about, either, its 
success or its proliferation to the general public and that they, gladly,  accept the idea (as 
some badge of honor)  that Linux will never have the ready utilitarian value and ease of use of 
Windows.   If Linux users are more "geek" or "nerd" than Windows users and they pride themselves 
on the distinction of having an operating system that requires a thorough knowledge of DOS, they 
have achieved this distinction, for what it is worth.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Maher on 2022-08-20 01:57

Dr. Bugeja, 

With all due respect, sir, some of Windows' error codes are no more helpful, IMHO.  There are even 
jokes about Windows' help desk giving precisely accurate information that is also totally useless.  
Maybe things have improved of late, but there is a reason that many folk in the arts are huge fans 
of the other commercially viable operating system.

John

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Mickey Sadler on 2022-08-20 06:05

A good description of the Linux file structure can be found at 
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/linux-file-hierarchy-structure/ . 

Another good explanation is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbgzrKJvDRw .

A good intro to Linux is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROjZy1WbCIA .

These would be good to look at if you are using a Raspberry PI since the PI OS is based on Linux.

I can also use the Unix/Linux commands in Terminal on my iMac. Sometimes that is helpful when 
tinkering on the computer.

Mickey

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-20 08:15

I agree. Don't get me wrong. It's a case that I know little to nothing of the Linux OS/s whereas 
I have gotten used to Windows with all its warts. Linux is all the more confusing because there 
are so many variations on the theme, one would not know which is which and what's what. Names 
given are not helpful at all. I believe Linux is used to drive the rovers on Mars so there must 
be something more than good about it but for me it's like groping in the dark. To substantiate my 
argument, I tried to install Zorin - the installation froze half way through; the solution offered 
was nothing I could understand and act upon. The experience stalled before even reaching the 
starting line... I wasn't able even to get as far as having the system installed, never mind what 
could have followed whilst using it. Me and Linux are simply incompatible.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-20 12:50
 
First, this is not a criticism, just an observation from having attempted, perhaps, a dozen times 
to make use of older, outdated desktops which, upgrades in operating systems,  caused to be 
relegated to the garbage dump while they were, still, in perfectly good, working condition.  
 
One of the values of certain of the versions of Linux is that they will work with older, outdated 
hardware (MMX as contrasted with SSE2 in processors), which seems to have been the significant 
dividing line between  Windows (DOS) 3.1, 95, 98 and XP  (NT, 4.0), Windows 7,8, and 10 and, now, 
11.   This may not be precise, but, no matter, Linux's versatility is the point.
 
The preparation of a hard drive for installation of Linux requires the downloading and burning to 
installation disk or flash drive of the G-Part formatting and partitioning tool, and the same for 
the operating system to be installed.  While, usually, these will go, somewhat,  normally, they will, 
often, run from the installation disk instead of installing permanently on the hard drive. 
 
In the initial boot sequence to install, the entire load processes in Linux are shown, scrolling, 
as they are successful,  or fail.  The sheer volume of information and the speed of it, as it is 
installed, make you wonder why it would be shown to any purpose at all.   Here is where the 
intimidation of Linux begins and, with the structural organization of the Root Drive, the confident 
and adept Windows user is, literally, lost to know where the parts of installed programs are located. 
 
There seems to be a lack of clear, concise, packaged information that describes for the would-be 
Linux user the structure of the Linux system, where application folders and files are, such that it 
is as comprehensible and user-friendly as Windows.   After Linux has installed, it is the process of 
installing other programs that is bewildering.  I have found Linux to be so frustrating that I have 
given up.
 
Linux is the "whole that equals the sum of its parts" and, unfortunately, it is the parts that seem 
to get lost in the shuffle.   There is, always, the requirement of an md checksum for the validity 
of packaged applications,  and installations seem to be lacking some related part or need the internet 
to be able to update or download the most recent version of a file.  These aspects or conditions for 
the use of Linux are a discouragement, even to someone who is familiar with the content of programs.  
Once installed, the individual parts seem to be located in different folders of the Root drive and 
finding them for purposes of, for example, audio driver installation, was problematic. 
 
I have come to believe that the developers of Linux are not overly concerned about, either, its success 
or its proliferation to the general public and that they, gladly,  accept the idea (as some badge of 
honor)  that Linux will never have the ready utilitarian value and ease of use of Windows.   If Linux 
users are more "geek" or "nerd" than Windows users and they pride themselves on the distinction of 
having an operating system that requires a thorough knowledge of DOS, they have achieved this 
distinction, for what it is worth.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-20 15:02

Exactly! You have put it a bit more eloquently than I have done in a post I sent out earlier.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-20 16:11

Just as well. I decided to clone my 2TB disc to a 4TB SSD. I succeeded without any significant 
issues and with the help of a friend of mine who is a guru and works on these things daily. 
I call him Merlin!

I had to upgrade the BIOS and enable a couple of items and I got everything in order. 
HW works as it did before.

I formatted the 2TB HDD and now its available as a secondary/ back up drive.

The last issue I need to sort out is the following: I bought 2 x 7-keys mini keypads 
(https://www.ebay.com/itm/115469044273). They connect via USB cable to my 16 port USB 3.0 hub. 
I program one and the other gets programmed in the same way. I cannot get them to function 
independently. 3 Identical keyboards (Beringer UMX-61) and the pedal board are assigned to a 
different MIDI channel hence are recognised as 4 separate units; 4 "swell" pedals function 
independently as they are each plugged into a different keyboard & the pedal board hence output 
through the corresponding MIDI channels. But how can one do the same for these 2 keypads so 
that I can program each key separately to have a total of 14 pistons?

I am still waiting for the manual and software for these keypads. As often the case, the 
leaflets that come with products made in China offer little solace. The 2 QR codes that are 
supposed to go directly to the website to access them lead to a blank page! I hope these 
provide the answer to my question. But if anyone has done this before, I am all eyes and ears!

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From steve on 2022-08-20 16:08                          

Hello all.

I have used Linux Mint for over 14 years and have been perfectly happy. I am NOT a computer 
nerd or expert but many of my friends are and they will not use Windows on their personal 
computers, so what does that say about Windows but, they all make lots and lot of money out 
of Windows when people need help.  One friend openly admits he has just bought an £2,000,000 
house on the back of Windows 10 and now 11!

If you don't want to see what Linux is installing press F4. If you want to see what Windows 
installs on your computer then you can and you will see the same sort of thing as Linux 
only Windows will not tell you if something has failed to load!

Why do I use Linux, it is reliable, private, I do not have to slow my computer down with 
antivirus programs, I do not have to sign up to Microsoft to use my computer, I can click 
one icon and get to tens of thousands of application all of which are free (If you like an 
application you use you can send the writer of the application a donation), my computer 
never crashed when doing an update and I have more freedom of choice.

My wife works for a multi national company and her company laptop is Windows and she hates it 
so, for the most part she works on her Linux laptop.

7 weeks ago I gave an 83 years old friend a Linux installation disk, she was up and running 
in 30mins and thinks the program is "The best thing she have ever had."

Maybe many of you should read the contract and privacy statement you agree to when you start 
Windows.

Steve.                  MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-21 11:37

Dr. Mark,  first, in relation to your duplicate, mini keypad;   I believe the two keypads 
should be identified, individually(#1) (#2), particularly, if they are control devices 
(couplers or stop combinations) recognized by jOrgan,  even though they have the same names.   
Windows USB should identify them by the same name, but do the same (#1) (#2).    Try 
disconnecting both, then, connect one and program it.  Then, connect the other and program 
it, separately, if that is possible and the second one is not, automatically, assigned the 
same programming as the first.   When the software comes, try installing it with two 
separate instances, giving the first installation a different folder name than the second 
instance, again, connecting the mini keypads, separately.  This may work, but you will have 
to see.  
 
About 6 weeks ago, I ordered a new 256 GB SSD for my organ computer and attempted to use 
cloning software to transfer the contents of the HDD to the SSD.  It did not work and 
Windows 10 had to be reinstalled on the new SSD.  I used a backup installation disk that I 
had made in 2015 when Windows 10, first, came out and, while that was successful, Windows, 
automatically, downloaded and installed a new build of Windows 10 with the product key that 

I had used from the original installation disk.  Everything works just fine. 
 
I have, always, been intrigued by Linux and there are aspects of it that are the reason why.  
It is simply that, experientially, Linux is not as user-friendly, in my opinion.  The fact 
that an elderly woman was able to install Linux and get it up and running and doing what she 
needs, is great.  I think that is pretty remarkable because I know an awful lot of senior 
citizens who resist the digital age and prefer not to have anything to do with computers at 
all.  I don't blame them.  I think the complexities of cyber security and the possibilities 
of scams and ID theft are so frightening—in comparison to the minimal, personal security risks 
people incurred 50 years ago—that their rejection of the entire computer age is perfectly 
understandable. 
 
With the current problems in the world, the ideal of instantaneous communications, somehow 
facilitating their resolution, seems to be a useless capability.  But, perhaps, this is more 
related to human attitudes than to technological usage.  
 
I try to, always, remember that Virtual Pipe Organ software, like the Hammond and Allen Organs, 
exists because the common man could not (and can not) afford a real, pipe organ.  
 
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-21 12:39

Hi John B,

I shall definitely try what you have recommended. I did not get the software yet. I did not yet 
try programming them with jOrgan and neither GrandOrgue. I tried only one HW sample-set as I did 
not have the time to try anything else.

Re: cloning. I used Macrium and it worked like a breeze. It did take a few hours to complete 
(about 6 hours I think for 2 TB).

Regarding digital organ vs pipes..... most of us neither have the space for anything of the sort 
even if we got an entire pipe organ free of charge! I am made to understand that in the UK several 
organs are being removed and literally thrown out of churches as priests/pastors seem to prefer 
"bands" and hate organs with a passion. More are left to rot away... I how bad the situation is first hand. So for those with some extra space in the 
bedroom or attic.... there is hope..... 😂 Maintenance cost for real pipe organs would always be 
an issue; only HW carries that burden in the digital world.... 😂😂😂

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *








































Linux recommended Distribution? 


From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-21 05:50  (in Windows vs others)                            

Mickey Sadler wrote:”A good description of the Linux file structure can be ound at

https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/linux-file-hierarchy-structure/ .    … “


Thank you for this Mickey...
                                             ...I will study the text. 

I am running Windows 7 thru 11pro,  All OS X  12 and 13 on real Mac computers and also real 
standalone Windows installs on Mac. (I support all of these.) RPi 3B+ and soon to add RPi 4 
when I feel I have the 3B+ running jOrgan well.  I have 2 stereo pairs coming out of a USB 
SoundBlaster via Qsynth and Jack.  I would like to have 3 stereo pairs as the sound card is 
5.1 discreet.  I am working on that. 

I have a Mac Mini 5,1 that is an i5 with 16gb ram that I am contemplating turning into a 
Linux machine.  I know there are lots of folks that have done that. 

I would like to have recommendations from anyone on what Linux Distribution that seems good 
for Audio/Multi-media applications.  Of course my primary interest will be jOrgan with mult-
channel sound. 

Thanks & Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *


































jOrgan on Ubuntu Studio 22


From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-21 14:50

Ok… here we go. 

So jOrgan won’t install.  Ubuntu Studio 22. Downloaded Java 8.  No joy.  So I found a video 
that said… do this on command line and here are the results. 

sudo apt install openjdk-11-jdk
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
You might want to run 'apt --fix-broken install' to correct these.

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
jorgan : Depends: default-jre but it is not going to be installed
Depends: libfluidsynth1 but it is not installable
openjdk-11-jdk : Depends: openjdk-11-jre (= 11.0.16+8-0ubuntu1~22.04) but it is not going 
to be installed
Depends: openjdk-11-jdk-headless (= 11.0.16+8-0ubuntu1~22.04) but it is not going to be 
installed
Recommends: libxt-dev but it is not going to be installed
Unmet dependencies. Try 'apt --fix-broken install' with no packages (or specify a solution). 

There are so many problems here that I don’t even know where to begin.  Does jOrgan even work 
in Ubuntu? 

I need solutions so I can write a tutorial that actually works.  Please point me in the 
right direction.

Thanks
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From steve on 2022-08-21 15:59

Run apt --fix-broken install or apt get update to make sure Ubuntu is up to date.
To install Fluidsyth run the Program Manager from the Ubuntu menu (Click icon far left of menu 
bar) Once the Program Manager is running, in the search (Top right) type Fluid and a list of 
all programs with the word Fluid will appear, there you will see Fluidsynth, double click, 
click install, put in your password, Program Manager may tell you extra programs (Dependences) 
need to be installed, Click OK and is a few second you will have fluidsynth.  Now download the 
jOrgan.deb file from Sorce Forge, open your Download folder, double click jOrgan and Ubuntu 
should install it.

Hope this helps.

Take a look at the program Manager so you know what programs are available for you to download.

Steve

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-21 23:31

jOrgan was installed… it just wouldn’t run.  So I installed Java 11 from updates and it 
UNINSTALLED jOrgan!  So I downloaded Version 4 and I’m back to the “Error: Cannot satisfy 
dependencies” 

I get the feeling it’s looking for Fluidsynth 1 also.  The system already has Fludisynth 2… 
Qsynth works perfectly and so does Jack. 

And people say Windows is odd.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-22 03:45

This install of Ubuntu Studio 22 is on an Intel/Mac i5 with a SSD.
I installed a working copy of jOrgan 4 from the RPi.  It starts and I can load a disposition.  
I placed the files in Public. 

I am working on getting virtual midi cables with a2jmidid so I can communicate midi with Qsynth 
which is using Fluidsynth 2. 

As a test I tried jOrgan from Mac to no avail.

Cheers
Marc-Paul               MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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MIDI devices and mini KeyPads vs different Organ software
 
From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-22 10:28

I have jOrgan v3.21 installed with the old FS 1.1.6. I discovered I did not have Java 
installed so I installed it.
I could not figure out how to open a disposition on two monitors although I customised 
for Display0 and Display1.

Also jOrgan only sees my pedalboard and one of 3 UMX61 keyboards. So I could not assign 
the 2 other keyboards!
There was no joy in trying to get even one key of the 2 mini keypads recognized.
Disposition I tried was the Aeolin-Skinner of Paul Stratman.

I had similar issues with GrandOrgue though it did sense all the keyboards unlike jOrgan.
Keypads aren't sensed at all.

Least trouble was with HW4 which senses all the keyboards and the mini keypads but does 
not distinguish between the two keypads even when I disconnected one and programmed the 
other. When plugged in the other mini keypad reacted like the one programmed (losing its 
own settings).

I don't know what to make of these observations!

Apologies for having to rope in the rival software but it was necessary in the circumstances.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-22 12:11

Hi Mark,

Your problem with MIDI devices having the same name is addressed here:
https://jorgan.info/base/e/Enumerate.html

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-22 18:13

Thanks John.

Very helpful (both you and Rick Whatson)

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-22 19:03

The checking of the two MIDI boxes in configuration of jOrgan helped to show up all the 
MIDI keyboards. Pity these are not checked by default as should be also the case for Executors!

The USB mini keypad issue remains unsolved and I cannot configure the combination pistons.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-22 20:08

Mark,

Do those mini keypads claim to produce MIDI messages? I suspect that they don't.

It is worth treating them as keys on your computer keyboard, which can be set to activate stops 
or pistons. Go into Construct Mode, select a piston, look at its Properties View, click at far 
right of its "shortcut" line, and an arrow will appear. Press one of the keypad switches. Nothing 
will appear, I have found. Instead click on one of the other pistons in the Elements List, then 
go back and click the one you tried to set. You should find an indication now showing.

It's worth a try!

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From RickW on 2022-08-22 20:33

Dr. Mark Bugeja MD, wrote:
The checking of the two MIDI boxes in configuration of jOrgan helped to show up all the MIDI 
keyboards. Pity these are not checked by default as should be also the case for Executors!

I agree, the MIDI numbering should be ticked by default. I have asked for this before, but 
nothing ever happens to update the Windows installer. 
There are other aspects to the Windows install that should also be updated. 
Unfortunately from a Windows point of view, the jOrgan install package is stuck back at XP.

I don't know what is involved with creating or editing a Windows installer package, but 
jOrgan could greatly benefit from a installer package update. 

Regards 
Rick

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-22 20:58

JohnR wrote:"Do those mini keypads claim to produce MIDI messages? I suspect that they don't.

It is worth treating them as keys on your computer keyboard"

On MIDI-OX nothing registers so as you say they don't output MIDI messages.

I'll try what you say. I hope I am understanding the procedure.

At the moment I am "at work" from home and can only do so much between calls I am receiving. There 
is a continuous output of MIDI from one of my keyboards. Something playing up there and I need to 
address that too. MIDI-OX shows it as a pitch bend or something to that effect. Usually it is 
because I have tightened the boards too tight on the wooden supports of my home made console 
(I had ripped the UMX keyboards aparts and installed everything on wood eliminating the plastic 
casing altogether. 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-22 22:05

JohnR., thanks for the link to the Enumerate.html and thanks to Rick Whatson for a very clear 
and concise description of how the connections and recognition of USB devices is done.
My explanation was not as clear as it should have been.

I was interested to note that Rick has 3 of the masterkey 61 USB keyboards. I have one of those 
for which I constructed an elevated stand to support the keyboard as a third manual on my 
vintage, midified, Allen TC-3  organ.   As long as the keyboard switch is turned "on," before 
the computer boots up, once the jOrgan disposition is set up, properly, it will load without 
the necessity to re-assign each time the disposition is used.

Unfortunately, Acorn Instruments (masterkey 25, 49,61) is no longer in business, apparently, 
having been taken over by Nektar.  I purchased two of those and midified an old Hammond organ 
25-note pedalboard for a church, VPO, using jOrgan.   I am trying to decide how to purchase or 
construct a wooden stand or table with folding legs that will fit the width of the pedalboard, 
quite precisely, and hold the two keyboards mounted appropriately, with music stand, yet,  
permit easy removal and storage of this VPO when the church platform is used for events 
requiring the full, 60-foot width, such as Christmas programs, etc.
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-22 23:08

I have this software called SharpKeys that can reassign keys to perform a different function. 
I used it to assign ALT_GR the function of CTRL which seized to function on my laptop.

Now I wonder whether I can specifically alter the 7 keys of one Mini keypad and not the other 
or the main keyboard I use to type.

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From John Beach on 2022-08-23 00:44

Some may remember that we had quite a long discussion, some years ago, about the Customizer 
and Configuration windows in jOrgan.  I think we, all, generally, agreed that, since each 
individual-user's system was unique with respect to its installed, audio/soundcard hardware,  
once customized (check "Ignore") and configured, there was no need for a separate Customizer 
Module.   That is, jOrgan's Customizer is not a File> menu item, without a Disposition being 
loaded.   Customizer is a disposition-dependent element.   jOrgan will load the most recently 
used disposition and it is ready to play.   It is only on new dispositions that Customization 
has to be done.  
 
So, correct me if I am wrong, but, apparently, Configuration is a jOrgan "shell" element 
(locale check "use default," check or uncheck disposition ) MIDI-Merger Input Devices (checked, 
permanent until unchecked) , whereas, Customization is a Disposition-proprietary "subset,"  
conceptually and functionally.   These hierarchical structures are interesting.  But it is 
difficult to understand how the wave file is the necessary, rudimentary-actuator element on 
which all the other parts of audio hardware and software, both,  act,  and are dependent.  
I think this explains the problem we are having with reverb in Fluidsynth, however.   This is 
unique to electronics and that is why it is not a problem in the natural environment of real 
pipe organs.
 
Interesting stuff!
 
John Beach                      MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Posts of Reply's do not get to List 

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-25 03:56

 ... a post that I sent yesterday…  did not show up.  I unsubscribed and then re-subscribed 
and got a confirmation.  But still no joy on reply’s.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-08-25 09:20

On 2022-08-25 03:56, Marc-Paul wrote:
"This is a post that I sent yesterday… it did not show up.  I
unsubscribed and then re-subscribed and got a confirmation.  But still
no joy on reply's."

Hi Marc-Paul,

Occasionally when I go to reply to a post, I find that the only email address that appears in the 
"To" window is that of the sender of that post. I will then return to the post in my Inbox and click 
on "Details" to check what's there. Whatever I find, the remedy is to copy the Mailing List email 
address and make sure that I put it into the "To" window of my Reply.

One has to be observant in these things. Otherwise one's reply will go only to the sender of the post.

Best wishes,
John

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-25 11:22

Probably you sent your message as a "reply" rather than as "reply all".

Mark

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *








































Windows 11 issues 

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-25 04:10

I have been running 32 & 64bit versions of jOrgan side by side for some time… simply 
specifying which Java to use on the command line.  I have more than one computer running 
Windows 11… one is testing Beta’s of Win11. 

That particular computer will open jOrgan… but I can’t do anything in it… it crashes. 

Here is the odd part… if I go to a disposition file and right click and select the 
correct version of jOrgan… it opens fine. 

I uninstalled jOrgan and Java and started over… the same result. 

Is there a config file somewhere that needs to be deleted… or do we have an upcoming 
problem.

Cheers
Marc-Paul


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Dr. Mark's Balzan on the RPi 3B+ (32bit) 

From Marc-Paul on 2022-08-28 14:30

I wanted to use Dr. Mark Bugeja’s incredibly well crafted… and beautiful sounding Balzan 
disposition on the RPi 3B+ with Fluidsynth2/Qsynth.  I have had success with the small 
American Classic disposition by Paul Stratman.

An outline of the procedure would be:
Remove Fluidsynth in disposition noting first how many instances are used.
Replace with Generic Sound and reference Sound Elements.
Use Virtual Midi Cables to connect jOrgan to Qsynth.
Use Jack Audio Connection Kit to patch virtual Midi to Qsynth from jOrgan.
Use Jack Audio to connect sound card.

Play Organ.

***************

I can give more detail in setup if it seem necessary…  but I thought I would let anyone 
that was interested try this first.

I found it necessary to work backwards.  Get Jack to run first with NO midi driver.  Set 
sound card with 2 channels output.  Open Graph.

Set virtual Midi cables with “a2jmidid” on the command line.  You will see Red instances 
appear in Jack Graph.  These are the one’s you will use to connect to Qsynth midi.

Open Qsynth and set Midi and Audio to Jack.  Load Soundfont.  Set sample rate etc. to the 
usual settings.  Turn on Output peak level meters in Options.  Set midi channels in 
multiples of 16 to number of instances noticed in Fluidsynth.

Go back to Jack Graph and connect the appropriate Red instance of Virtual Midi cable to 
Qsynth Red Midi in. (drag and drop)

Start or Re-start jOrgan and set the output of Generic sound to the Virtual Midi Cable.  
Remove errors by setting midi outputs to the Virtual Midi Cable except your Keyboard Input.

When you press keys on the keyboard you should see a green flicker on Qsynth.  If you have 
everything correct… you will see audio from the meters in Qsynth… and hear audio.

To hear such a beautiful pipe sound as this disposition is truly a delight.  
Thank-you Dr. Mark.

Cheers

Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Dr. Mark Bugeja MD on 2022-08-28 16:21                     

Thank you. Although I take sole credit for the recording of this instrument, I give all the 
rest of the credit to the late Panos Ghekas who worked on it himself (processing of the raw 
audio into files I could work upon myself) as well as his guidance on how to carry out what 
I had to do with files to create the sampleset as it is.

Graphics, fancy as they may look, are my work. At the time I was more into capturing as many 
elements of both the organ as well as the church itself to create the dials etc. It was all 
new to me and I was as excited creating these as with the wav files themselves..... like a 
child unwrapping his Christmas presents! It was a thrill generating the realism of movement 
from pairs of artwork for each element involved, mindful of how things appear to us in 3-D in 
real life and applying them to 2-D images on a computer screen. It was fun throughout. I would 
do things a little less flashy had I to revisit the sample-set but I'd like to retain it the 
way Panos and I created it then for it sure brings back a lot of memories and nostalgia. 
Whilst Panos went to meet the Lord 7 years ago (anniversary due next month, RIP), his heart 
still beats in this instrument with every note played wherever in the world by whoever has got 
the set. To date, I have distributed almost 1600 copies individually and personally to people 
in 70 countries. Out of these just under 300 copies are for jOrgan.

Balzan organ has made history as being the very first digital replica of a historic instrument 
in our tiny Island of Malta. I know no one who has done any such work ever. My aim at bringing 
Malta onto the map of virtual instruments has truly succeeded with 3 other instruments added 
since (Panos had started work on the second organ, that in Fontana, Gozo the sister island when 
he fell suddenly ill and passed away).

I do hope that more people will enjoy these instruments. With a lot of help from several people 
around the world, it has been possible to extend our humble treasures and share them with the 
rest of the world. Now that I shall be retiring from my medical practice, I hope I can devote 
more time to recording a variety of different, larger and smaller historic organs that are 
spread around the two islands. The limiting factor is expert voluntary help with sound 
processing and creation of sf2 and HW packages. Volunteers have become rather scarce with 
leaders in these fields having withdrawn their services. The few that remain are at times very 
difficult to work with! But I shall try at least a couple more whilst my health allows. There 
are physical difficulties to surmount like climbing long, narrow, winding, spiral stairs to get 
to the organs, the time allowed, permissions to access and record organs, carrying food, snacks 
and coffee and medication that has to be kept cool (I am a diabetic...), carrying a bag laden 
with the hardware needed as well as food are tiring... and what goes up has to come back down 
(and what goes in has to come out at some point...... I'm sure you know what I mean..... usually 
there are no toilets in choir lofts....). So there is a hell of a lot more than meets the eye....

Have fun and spare at thought at what went through to help bring that about.....

Mark                            MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Midi Soundbank preset-correlation and mapping 

From John Beach on 2022-08-27 00:58

I happened upon the MIDI 2.0 announcement of August 17,2022 
( https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/the-midi-association-announces-midi-2-0-development-tools  ) 
and thought about the problem of non-standardization of soundbank presets (rank/stop names) by 
Official Equipment Manufacturers (OEM) and whether this issue had been addressed in the MIDI 2.0 
release.  

I don't think it has, and so, I put in a search for "soundbank preset-correlation and 
mapping, since .mid files, having System Exclusive Program Changes,  would prevent playing them 
by another type of organ.  In the absence of standardization of organ soundbanks or libraries, 
some program that, simply, reads the preset names and program change numbers of the different 
banks of different organs is necessary to correlate the same stops of the separate organs to 
playback using the same organ stops.   

(Reconciliation of System Exclusive Elements) One of the returns to my search was the link below, 
having to do with the structure of gaming software, and it piqued my interest concerning the 
structure of games having an "initialization bank."  As I read it, I thought of it as a 
configurator/customizer of system hardware, or a  .mid file triggering the playback of sounds 
in a soundbank (since the GM.dls is used for games) and wondered if games (which I have NEVER 
played) are, instantaneously and fluidly, reactionary relative to the interaction of the players, 
or if a game is a predetermined/prescribed sequence of events that becomes boring (like the Atari 
"Mario" of the 1980s, bouncing on a brick wall, batting objects to the same monotonous, 
synthetic tones that must have driven many a mother to distraction) with its repetition.

In the description of "Soundbank, "Because all platforms are different, Wwise allows you to easily 
tailor the SoundBanks for each platform and generate the SoundBanks for all platforms simultaneously."
 
If or since the Fluidsynth 2.0 Reverb has been designed with gamers in mind, I was interested to see 
that this Wwise has its own sound engine and correlates audio and motion and deals with the 
environmental variables of environmental obstruction and occlusion which are the causal factors of 
reverberation. 
 
While I agree with JohnR. that the reverb in Fluidsynth 2.0 is quite good, it is the unrealistic 
cycling of of the looped steady-state of the wave file that is, still, very objectionable.  If we 
could just get that eliminated, it would be perfect.   Having read the descriptions of the 
abstractions with which this particular program deals, I am convinced that perfection is achievable.
 
https://www.audiokinetic.com/library/edge/?source=WwiseFundamentalApproach&id=understanding_
soundbanks_understanding_soundbanks
 
John Beach 

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Proper reverberation defined 

From John Beach on 2022-08-30 17:17                          

The response to a search question "Does reverberation change the amplitude of a sound 
wave?"  returned the following:   "Reverberation effects are frequently used in studios 
to enhance the depth of sounds. Reverberation modifies the perceived spectral structure 
of a sound but does not change the pitch. Basic aspects that affect a room's 
reverberation time comprise the shape and size of the surrounding as well as the 
substance used in the building of the room."   (room, width and damping).
 
To the following question, "Does modulation change the pitch of a wave?"   "Modulation 
in music is a change in pitch, volume or timbre of an acoustic sound source over time. 
In particular it is described as a change in the shape of waveforms of the sound waves 
which generate ultrasonic waves."
 
The proper definition of "amplitude modulation" is "Amplitude modulation is a process 
by which the wave signal is transmitted by modulating the amplitude of the signal. It 
is often called AM and is commonly used in transmitting a piece of information through 
a radio carrier wave. Amplitude modulation is mostly used in the form of electronic 
communication."
 
 
Where Fluidsynth Reverb LEVEL violates the definition of reverberation is in the extent 
to which it, audibly, changes the pitch of the sound.   Properly, LEVEL should not affect 
the unmodulated steady-state of the sound, but decrease the loudness of the sound relative 
to its decay over a short period of time in seconds.  The construct of an acoustic 
environment is perceived to be an extantial constant in terms of its effect on sound. 
 
 
"Reverberation modifies the perceived spectral structure of a sound but does not change 
the pitch. "
  
Recently, I found a posting by Les Knolls from 2019 in which he stated that he was using 
the "Jazz Club" reverb setting in Creative Environmental Audio Xtension, a named type of 
reverberation that is not found in the list of reverb choices for the Realtek Onboard Audio 
that is available with most PCs.    Although he states that he is using it with some 
modification (17.7 dB), the default produces an excellent "organ quality" of sound, giving 
a closer, fuller "presence" and a grittiness to the sound which is very realistic.
 
John Beach

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jOrgan info and jOrgan Wiki not working         

From RickW on 2022-09-18 21:02

Has anyone else noticed a problem trying to research jOrgan details?

I am getting the message: this page isn't working. jorgan.info redirected you too many times.
I can't seem to find wiki information either.

Is it just me or my internet connection?

Regards,
Rick

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-09-18 22:06

Hi Rick,

I've just got the same. It is possible that Jonathan is in the process of changing the 
jorgan.info over to another server. We have had email communication about it. It won't 
affect the link at all once he has finished the process.

I wasn't expecting it quite so soon.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-09-18 23:31

Hi all,

Yes that is me as John said I have moved it over to another server and I am trying to 
understand why the site isn’t loading. Rest assured nothing has been lost and once it's 
all back online John can continue updating the site.

I will keep everyone updated in regards to this.

Regards,
Jonathan Aquilina

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-09-19 02:00

I do not know if this is on topic or related.   I can only get jorgan to load on opera; 
and i have 5 browsers.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Marc-Paul on 2022-09-19 02:50

The DNS may not have updated yet in all areas.  It will resolve eventually.

Cheers
Marc-Paul

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Chester Berry on 2022-09-19 03:03

Thanks, Jon, for all your work!
/s/Chester H Berry
Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-09-19 13:22

Good Morning Chester, 

Not a problem at all. 

On another good note the website is back online, I will need to just get John his FTP details 
so he can connect to the server and upload any updates 

Regards,
Jonathan Aquilina

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-09-19 14:56

On 2022-09-19 13:22, Jonathan Aquilina via jOrgan-user wrote:
"On another good note the website is back online, I will need to just get John his FTP details 
so he can connect to the server and upload any updates"

Jonathan,

That is great news. I have, of course, verified that it is now working on the new server.

What I am especially pleased about, is that you were able to copy all the jorgan.info details 
(far more than just the website!) over to the new server, meaning that I don't have several 
weeks of uploading it all there myself!   :-)    :-)

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Jonathan Aquilina on 2022-09-19 15:31

Hi John,

Being an IT guy no way was I goign to have you do all the work. Firstly its not in my nature, 
I might be sponsoring the site but i wouldnt do that to the entire jorgan community.

In one way or another I would have come up with a way to copy over everything.

Regards,
Jonathan

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From RickW on 2022-09-19 16:25

Hi Jonathan 

Thank you for what you are doing for the jOrgan community. 

Regards 
Rick.

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Stepped CC message control of Swell   

From RickW on 2022-09-19 10:40

I feel like I have researched this as far as I can and hit a brick wall.  I would be happy 
to be proven wrong.

I have a console that provides 10x stepped (ON/OFF) MIDI messages for the Swell Shades 
position of 2x Swell Chambers.

It would seem to me that I somehow need to "Reference" a series of "Keyer" Elements to a 
"Continuous" Element, but the "New References" function doesn't think this is a valid 
connection and doesn't offer the ability to make the "Reference".

From what I can see (having tried many options) the "Continuous" Element can only Reference 
the "Synchronising" Element. 

From my research, the "Synchronising" Element will set one "Continuous" Element to the same 
value as another "Continuous" Element.  This doesn't achieve the steps I need.

Am I missing something?

Is there a way I can use the "Messages" entries for the "Continuous" Element to read the 
stepped on/off messages from this console?

Can jOrgan be modified to allow "References" between "Keyer" Elements and "Continuous" Elements?

Is there some other way to achieve this? 

Thank you

Regards
Rick

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From RickW on 2022-09-19 10:52

A few more thoughts to the original message.

I feel like I have researched this as far as I can and hit a brick wall.  I would be happy 
to be proven wrong.

I have a console that provides 10x stepped (ON/OFF) MIDI messages for the Swell Shades position 
of 2x Swell Chambers.

It would seem to me that I somehow need to "Reference" a series of "Keyer" Elements to a 
"Continuous" Element, but the "New References" function doesn't think this is a valid connection 
and doesn't offer the ability to make the "Reference".

From what I can see (having tried many options) the "Continuous" Element can only Reference the 
"Synchronising" Element. 

From my research, the "Synchronising" Element will set one "Continuous" Element to the same value 
as another "Continuous" Element.  This doesn't achieve the steps I need.

Am I missing something?

Is there a way I can use the "Messages" entries for the "Continuous" Element to read the stepped 
on/off messages from this console?

The "Continuous" Element only offers the "New Message" options of "Change" and "Changed"

It doesn't seem to think that "Activate" "Deactivate" are valid for this Element.

Can jOrgan be modified to allow "References" between "Keyer" Elements and "Continuous" Elements, 
or to allow "Activate" "Deactivate" messages on "Continuous" Elements?

Is there some other way to achieve this? 

Thank you

Regards
Rick

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-09-19 14:50

Rick,

I have just simulated a good solution to your need, using my Norden Schnitger disposition.

I had noticed that the pistons could be used to control the Volume settings.  This was more 
by accident than by design, but the end result is that it has provided you with the answer.

If you create ten special pistons and reference them all to the volume control, you can 
activate them by the MIDI messages from the organ console, using the Customizer in the normal 
way. You can go into Construct Mode and set a specific Volume value before operating the SET 
piston and then the appropriate special piston. This, of course, has to be set up ten times.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From RickW on 2022-09-19 16:24

Hi John 

Thank you for this. I will set it up and test it, but can see how it will work.

In having got to this point, I still wonder how hard it would be to allow some extra 
references and messages in the jOrgan structure to give more flexibility between on/off 
and continuous functions. The current allowed references and messages assumes very 
specific functional application. 

I know this means another update for jOrgan, but I have found a real world application.

Regards 
Rick

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From RickW on 2022-09-21 20:57

Hi John

I have run some tests on this, and while it looks promising, it is not quite achieving 
the result I need.  While it seems so close, the resulting behaviour is not musical.

I am able to achieve 10x steps of Swell opening, but I am not able to achieve any steps 
of Swell closing. The Swell stays wide open until it gets a rising step anywhere below 
its current position.

I tried creating another 10x "pistons" to "activate" a closing step on the closing swell 
signals, but it just doesn't move at all up or down.

I tried with the 10x pistons having "Duration" set to each of the three alternatives 
(None, Until Deactivated, Infinite) but this only affects the display of the piston being 
pressed (triggered active) or not.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-09-21 21:45

Rick,
I'll have another look at my simulation, and see if I get the behaviour you describe.

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-09-22 08:54

On 2022-09-21 20:57, RickW wrote:
"I am able to achieve 10x steps of Swell opening, but I am not able to achieve any steps of 
Swell closing. The Swell stays wide open until it gets a rising step anywhere below its 
current position.”

I tried creating another 10x "pistons" to "activate" a closing step on the closing swell 
signals, but it just doesn't move at all up or down."


Rick,

You haven't given details of what this testing consisted of, so I am not sure what it all 
means. But if you created another ten "pistons" to deal with "doors closing", then I think 
you are almost there. The question is, in setting this test up, did you go through the 
process of assigning volume levels to those extra ten pistons? And were those extra pistons 
also referenced to the volume control?

I have just tested this out, using my Norden Schnitger disposition. I went into Construct 
mode, brought up the volume control properties, and set the volume value to 1. I then used 
the "SET" piston procedure to get the HW piston 5 to register that volume level of 1. I knew 
that if I activate (manually) HW piston 1, the volume level goes to "0". In play mode, I 
alternately (manually) activated HW pistons 1 and 5, back and forth. The volume control 
certainly moved from fully open to fully closed and then fully open, or vice versa, depending 
on which piston I was activating. This is all visible on the screen.

As far as I can see, the challenge is to get those 20 special pistons reacting in an 
identifiable way to the MIDI on/off messages from the swell pedal. Obviously the Customizer 
plays a part in that. If you draw a blank there, you may have to resort to modifying the 
entries in the disposition, based on a knowledge of what the on/off messages are. Presumably 
that is precisely what the Customizer does whenever, for example, one wants to get the stops 
to respond to particular MIDI messages.

Best wishes,
JohnR

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Setting stops with MIDI   

From Jan Hartmann on 2022-09-29 08:15

Hi,

I'm playing MIDI-files from Musescore to Jorgan via LoopMidi, so I can follow the music 
while listening to it. Notes are getting through fine, but I am unable to set stops. Some 
dispositions come with MIDI files that set stops, but when I import these into Musescore, 
stop settings seem to be lost.

I am able to record stop settings in the Jorgan recorder and export them to a MIDI file. 
Is it possible to add this file at the front of an external MIDI file (e.g. from 
classicalarchives.com) in Musescore, and play it with the right registration that way? 
If not, are programs like Finale or Sibelius an option? And if everything else fails, 
could this MIDI file be transferred to Jorgan by way of a separate MIDI transport program,
like MIDI-OX?

Is there a description how stops respond to MIDI Messages? I would prefer not to have to 
write them out in detail, but to set them on the Jorgan console and record that.

Regards, Jan

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From RickW on 2022-09-29 13:45

Hi Jan

I have done a fair bit of work in this area with a slightly different focus.

My aim has been to have jOrgan fully interpret MIDI files created on a Johannus MIDI Sequencer 
Recorder/Player connected to a real pipe organ with a Z-Tronics Relay, Capture action and MIDI 
Interface.

As you have already discovered, the MIDI File Player embedded in jOrgan is very specifically 
designed so that it replays a recorded jOrgan performance in every detail, but it will only 
ever correctly replay in jOrgan in the exact jOrgan disposition.

I do believe it is possible to "see" the "Console Messages" if you analise the MIDI file in 
an external editor, but I don't think there would be any way that information would be "read" 
by jOrgan while being fed from an external MIDI player. Likewise, I don't believe there is any 
way to intercept the jOrgan MIDI Player MIDI stream to be viewed by external software.

I have achieved my aim by adding MIDI Message triggers to every jOrgan Console Tab and 
Function to match the messages being recorded in the real pipe organ system.

There is no reason why you couldn't achieve what you want to do, but it will mean you will 
need to go into jOrgan "Construct" mode and add a "Connector" Element to connect to your 
virtual MIDI cable, and add "Activate" and "Deactivate" messages to every Stop (in every 
disposition you might want to use). It is achievable, but not without a considerable amount 
of work.

I can go into more detail if you want to go down this path.

Regards,
Rick

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnB on 2022-09-29 17:34

Jan, I use, essentially, the same technique as you, playing .mid files in a separate midi 
sequencer program, inputting to jOrgan via Loopbe virtual midi cable.  I activate the jOrgan 
record function, and activate the stops to be used, then, start the playback of the .mid 
file in the external midi sequencer program.
 
Initially, jOrgan had a dedicated channel/track for the metadata (jOrgan-proprietary).  
However, this is no longer visible in the jOrgan-proprietary .mid file which is recorded by 
the jOrgan recorder.  I believe it was, originally, channel 16.  What is, also, interesting 
is the fact that, in analyzing the Event List of the jOrgan-proprietary .mid file in the 
external midi sequencer program, NO program changes (stop changes or metadata) will be 
listed or shown.  All that is apparent are the Note-On/Note-Off messages.  So, how the 
metadata (stop changes, couplers, tremolo, expression, etc.) are embedded by jOrgan is a 
secret,  known only to Sven.   However, on playing back the jOrgan .mid file in the jOrgan 
recorder, all the appropriate metadata effectuates all the changes that are made, manually. 
 
To record a jOrgan disposition-proprietary .mid file in the method we are using, inputting 
from an external midi sequencer program, making all the appropriate stop changes during 
live simultaneous play/record of a .mid file requires a thorough review of the .mid file, 
the times or measures at which stop changes want to be made, etc.  It can be done and I did 
it with the .mid file of the "Titanic" that Al Schroer made several years ago, adapting all 
the stop changes to a disposition that I had created and have used for many years, now.   
Setting the pistons for stop combinations is the best method to achieve rapid changes of 
stops in mid-play of a .mid file.   You have to be able to view, both, the jOrgan console 
and the midi-sequencer, track windows, at the same time, in order to be able to make the 
rapid changes of stops, couplers or effects such as tremolo or expression.  

Actually, you can set the expression messages which are embedded in the .mid file by the 
creator of it, to be intercepted by jOrgan with the following messages for the Expression of 
the Division.  Make sure that the "Change" (last entry) has the correct  Division Channel 
number after the "equal" (177=Great in my disposition). Assuming that the Swell is Channel 1 
and that is the 176, the other divisions are given ascending numbers (177,178,179, etc.) in 
the order in which they were created.  Great-177, Pedal-178, Choir=179, etc.   Then, the 
expression (volume changes can be intercepted, also) changes will be made automatically, 
if they are embedded in the original .mid file being played to input to jOrgan recorder. 
 
Great  (Enclosed)    Engaging    set 176    set 11    set value | mult 0.5 | add 0.5 | mult volume 127   
Great  (Enclosed)    Engaging    set 176    set 99    set 120   
Great  (Enclosed)    Engaging    set 176    set 98    set 8   
Great  (Enclosed)    Engaging    set 176    set 6    set value | mult 0.33 | add 0.66 | mult volume 80   
Great  (Enclosed)    Change    equal 177   equal 11    div 127 | get value  
 
I hope this helps.
 
John Beach

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Jan Hartmann on 2022-10-05 04:09                   


Thanks, Rick and John! Looks very complex to me. Couldn't Sven describe the format of 
his MIDI stop changes? I guess they are some sort of MIDI text metadata. I saw something 
like that in a description for using Musescore with Hauptwerk and GrandOrgue (which I 
do not really understand):

https://musescore.org/en/node/270844#Assigning_and_changing_stops_in_your_score_(SDRC)

In the meantime, I'll record the initial stops for a MIDI organ piece with the Jorgan 
recorder, and play that small MIDI file within the Jorgan recorder, and after that the 
original one from Musescore. It  would be nice if that was also possible for stop changes 
during the Musescore playback, but I can't see how to do that.

Cheers,  Jan

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From RickW on 2022-10-18 10:24                                  

I have been running a lot of MIDI files from an external sequencer in recent weeks, 
a strange thing I am finding almost every time I open my jOrgan disposition, is that 
my virtual MIDI connection LoopMIDI changes "Enumerate" MIDI device number in jOrgan, 
so jOrgan dumps the Customizer MIDI Input device.  So every time I open my jOrgan 
disposition, I need to check the first couple of pages for MIDI input settings for 
each division and console controls.

Just mildly annoying.  I wonder why this is happening?  I'm not disconnecting or 
connecting any extra or different MIDI devices.
I thought "Enumerate" was intended to eliminate this possibility.

Regards
Rick

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-10-24 06:27

On 2022-10-18 10:24, greenfox4075@gmail.com wrote: "I have been running a lot of MIDI files 
from an external sequencer in recent weeks, a strange thing I am finding almost every time 
I open my jOrgan disposition ... "


Hi Rick,

You say, "almost every time". Does this mean that sometimes it works O.K.?
This suggests to me a poor USB contact rather than a software corruption issue.

Would the use of MIDI-Ox identify whether the sequencer is sending inconsistent identification?

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Howard A. Ashley on 2022-10-24 11:19

Please let me know if this gets through. I have been on this list for years but never know 
if I'm being heard or not. Mostly I just lurk. But this particular topic resonates. There 
is a software sequencer (free!) that is designed to capture all the stop changes and 
expression pedal changes of an organ performance. Almost any organ but especially Hauptwerk 
organs. Here is a link: https://www.organassist.com/ . Totally a game changer. I need it 
because my legacy Rodgers 751 has no built in sequencer. I thought Hauptwerk had a 
satisfactory one. This thread makes me think otherwise? The fact that the Organ Assist 
software comes with so many Hauptwerk Organs installed makes me think it is necessary. If 
your particular instrument is not represented you can create it by modifying the profile of 
one that is close.

Howard

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Chester Berry on 2022-10-24 11:24


Howard A. Ashley wrote: "Please let me know if this gets through."

Received 

/s/Chester H Berry, Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From RickW on 2022-10-24 17:03

Hi John

Thank you for continuing to think about this.

In this instance, I am running jOrgan on my Windows 10 laptop with no MIDI devices connected.  
I am not ever connecting external  MIDI devices to this computer (though I have in the past).  
I am running jOrgan 3.21(64-bit).

I am using either Cakewalk or MIDIBar to play MIDI files using the virtual MIDI cable 
loopMIDI with only 1 Port configured in the loopMIDI setup.
I have Cache and Enumerate set active in jOrgan configuration.

In Customizer today I get the MIDI inputs dropdown box showing: jOrgan MIDI Merger #0, 
jOrgan MIDI Logger #3, jOrgan Null #4, RTPMIDI #6, loopMIDI Port 1 #7, Real Time Sequencer #12.

As I write this message all my MIDI inputs are showing blank, so I need to change them all 
to loopMIDI Port 1 #7.
Last time I opened jOrgan I had to set them all to #6 as that was where loopMIDI Port 1 was 
in the enumerated list. If I am remembering correctly, it seems to alternate between #6 and #7.
I save each time in the hope that I won't need to re-enter all 6 fields again next time.

(I have no need for Organ Assist as I have configured jOrgan to read every message and function 
provided by the MIDI sequencer on the real organ that my jOrgan disposition emulates in every 
detail.) 

Regards
Rick

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From RickW on 2022-10-24 20:20

Further to my last message

I just rebooted, then checked jOrgan.

My previous input settings were gone, RTP Ethernet MIDI and loopMIDI Port 1 have swapped 
from #6 and #7 to #7 and #6.

Regards
Rick

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From JohnR on 2022-10-24 20:55                                  NEWEST POST

On 2022-10-24 20:20, RickW wrote:"I just rebooted, then checked jOrgan.
My previous input settings were gone, RTP Ethernet MIDI and loopMIDI Port 1 have swapped 
from #6 and #7 to #7 and #6."

Hi Rick,

I can't help wondering whether you are applying the Enumerate function to a situation 
for which it was not designed. What happens if you turn the Enumerate off?

Best wishes,
JohnR

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From RickW on 2022-11-03 13:25

Hi John 

I think you are correct. Thank you again for going out of your way to think about mine and 
others jOrgan problems. It always helps to have someone else to bounce things off of.

I have turned off MIDI Enumerate and jOrgan appears to be remembering the MIDI input Device 
selections.

The situation with LoopMIDI and RTPMidi swapping Enumerate allocations may have something 
to do with them both being from the same software developer?

In my current jOrgan use scenario, I am not using my 3x identical Acorn USB MIDI keyboards 
(which do require Enumerate to be able to function)
So it seems the two different use cases require two different jOrgan setups in the underlying 
jOrgan program, not able to be managed by separate dispositions. 

Regards 
Rick                            MOST RECENT POST IN THE THREAD

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Sound modelling article         

From John Beach on 2022-11-02 21:32

The article at the link below begins  "Imagine the booming chords from a pipe organ 
echoing through the cavernous sanctuary of a massive, stone cathedral."
 
https://news.mit.edu/2022/sound-model-ai-1101?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email
 
When I read it, I wondered how, specifically, the research might parallel or affect 
that of digital reverberation techniques.   I admit that I, first, thought of Impulse 
Response as being, essentially, the same thing,  but they are using it to "model vision."  
3D geometry.  

Given the effect of objects that baffle, 3D geometric, physical objects' effect on
reverberation, I wonder how it differs from that of the technique used to make an impulse 
response file.  The interpolation by digital signal processing of the sound wave file
or ensemble of sound waves, shaped or altered, relative to the wave file of the impulse 
response, environmental acoustic model, electronically, seems to be a problematic, 
artificial and unrealistic product caused by the constraints and nature of electricity.  
It is electronic-artificial rather than acoustic-natural in origin, therefore, 
fundamentally, different, like the difference between a pipe organ and a Hammond organ.
 
What do others think?
 
John Beach

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No sound



From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-04 23:02



I have two computers one does not work: Help.



Works:

windows 11

I3

jre1.8.0_351

jOrgan v.4

BALMAN_J320_fs



No sound::/*

windows 10

I5

jre1.8.0_351

jOrgan v.4

BALMAN_J320_fs

ERROR Sound font "BALMAIN_HQ.sf2" cannot be loaded. Fluidsynth Sound

Organ and master volume max.

Tried reloading everything several times.



Thank you,;

ƒg



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From Sven Meier on 2022-11-04 23:10



Hi,



copy the sf2 file from "works" to "no sound::/*", maybe the file is corrupted on the latter.



Regards

Sven



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From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-05 00:59



Sven:

Same, note, I have downloaded the 3 parts several times also.



Thank you, ƒg



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From Pascal Collet on 2022-11-05 02:19



Hello, Is this the same size of memory (RAM) on both computers ?



Regards

Pascal



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From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-05 04:04



yes



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From JohnR on 2022-11-05 06:44



Freeman,



Can you send me both .disposition files as attachments in an email? Please make it clear which

one is from the Windows 11, and which from the Windows 10. Make sure that the last time you used

them, you SAVED them when closing them down.



Best wishes,

JohnR



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From RickW on 2022-11-05 12:06



I have had a friend mention yesterday about his jOrgan with Christie disposition stop making

sound after a Java update. Showing Fluidsynth error.



I sent him suggestions, but haven't yet heard back on any results.



I am currently running jOrgan v3.20 (64 bit). Java has recently updated to 8 351. My system is

working fine.



It will be interesting to pin down the problem.

32 bit possibly?



The more reports we get should help to narrow it down.



Regards

Rick.



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From Marc-Paul on 2022-11-05 15:41



I am running jOrgan 321B3 in both 32 and 64bit on the same computer on Java 8.321 (build 1.8.0_321-b07)

without difficulty. I downloaded the Balmain disposition and installed it without difficulty in both

32 and 64bit. Fluidsynth works fine.



My system will not update Java any further... odd I think.



This is a Windows 11pro Ryzen based system.



Cheers

Marc-Paul



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From JohnR on 2022-11-19 16:51



Hi all,



We have finally discovered the reason for Freeman's jOrgan problems. The answer was staring us

in the face in his very first post. A careful look at the "f" in his signature differs slightly

from the "f" elsewhere in his post. It uses an unusual character. That character also forms part

of his username in his Windows 10 computer. Windows had no problem with it, but jOrgan did, when

trying to load the soundfont file into Fluidsynth.



Best wishes,

JohnR



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From Marc-Paul on 2022-11-20 02:40



Hi JohnR...

...so to be sure I understand. The ASCII character was

of a different reference number... is that correct?



Cheers

Marc-Paul



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From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-20 03:54



I used ƒ (Alt+159) for my f. Linux was used to create the sound font so having the ƒ in the path

of the sound font file it could not be reached. (John may be able to explain this better)



Taking the folder that contained ƒ out of the path of the disposition folder containing the sound font

file solved the problem.



ƒg



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From Marc-Paul on 2022-11-20 05:07



Thanks...

...that's what I thought... I just wanted to be clear. Alt+159 sets the character.



This is important because I run PC, Mac and Raspberry side by side.



Cheers

Marc-Paul



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Raspberry Pi two monitors



From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-21 06:20



I am new to jOrgan and will probably have many questions. I am buying hardware. I have a

Raspberry Pi 4. I would like to use two touch screen monitors to divide the stops and

balance the appearance. In checking eBay and youtube it looks like the best way to do

this is with two HDMI touch monitors which may require a USB input for the touch. And

it looks like the touch function has to be calibrated to what is showing on the screen.

This is all I know now and do not know if it works or even if it works with jOrgan.



The screen size would be 7 or 10 in. If anyone has experience with this, it would be

greatly appreciating your help:



1] Brand would you recommend?



2] Screen size?



3] Screen resolution?



4] With all the USB connections would I need a powered USB hub or will power through Raspberry Pi be 0k?



5] At this time, not looking for help setting up the second monitor. For now, just getting jOrgan running,



Thank you. Ƒg





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From JohnR on 2022-11-27 16:41



On 2022-11-21 06:20, Freeman Gilmore wrote: "I am new to jOrgan and will probably have many

questions. I am buying hardware. I have a Raspberry Pi 4. I would like to use two touch

screen monitors to divide the stops and balance the appearance."



Freeman,



The lack of response indicates not much use of the RPi. You already know of my use of two

official RPi 7" touchscreens with my home console. These are with two RPi 3B+'s, a model which

RPi are not continuing to release. So you have to use the RPi 4B or later. The RPi 4B gets

very hot and this needs a suitable heatsink case or a case with fan. Fortunately jOrgan does

not make it run very hot, as it does not make high demands of the CPU, but it still needs to

be kept in mind.



With my 7" screens I use the Pimoroni screen case to give extra physical protection. My RPi

Tutorial describes it in a lot of detail. This touchscreen has cables connecting directly to

the RPi board, and so no use is made of the USB ports. Note that this touchscreen makes no

provision for extra cooling, apart from ventilation.



I have found that this set-up totally meets my needs. I can fit 56 stops plus some other

controls, distributed across the two screens. No more than that, if the stops are to be

readable from the playing position. The two computers talk to each other using jOrgan's LAN

provision. It is not very difficult to modify existing jOrgan dispositions to fit this

touchscreen arrangement.



You already know about the website of my preferred RPi supplier here in NSW, called Core

Electronics. They are a serious supplier very committed to the RPi, and they seem to be

currently out of stock of the RPi 4B, which has quite bad implications for their financial

viability at the moment.



That website is a great resource for getting a feel for the RPi and its accessories. They and

other suppliers do offer some 10" touchscreens, but I have looked at some reviews of them, and

not one of those reviews is totally glowing. However, there is also an 8.9" touchscreen which

looks promising, with some excellent guidance material. The one review is very positive.

Unfortunately it is twice the price of the 7" touchscreen. Here is a link to that screen,

followed by a link to the Guide:



https://core-electronics.com.au/8-9-1920x1200-ips-touch-display.html



https://core-electronics.com.au/guides/raspberry-pi/dfrobot-8.9-ips-display/





Best wishes,

JohnR



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From Freeman Gilmore on 2022-11-27 19:09



John:



I am looking at two of these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255774202371?hash=item3b8d549a03:g:WbMAAOSw~m1i1QSX&amdata=

enc%3AAQAHAAAA8ALB5c4nkt%2BlHrCaIPb1CZwKtdoa72GxZB%2Fp4geJmYYxrg9SHxqmLGeV17q5xvQupu

5BoHKw0CG7QD2GTHPICZEJbWngRAP3oQxe%2F5v6%2Fh7nzvmGc3PsoOHhV0C7ai%2BIqn126crBN91Nt4xH

sEWv%2BQ%2FoZqFnYE7vCKPyyKq7gYbSluD%2BF0Rpw7JNJtaEPr17tmZMlX5t7mqYrGxFKqRAQtzMQo329X

VIG54ozAPrbJzuVZFHeH2Nm0D0LGZZdNynhKZ8eonaiS0M7cjivCZvqJ49PqUEFexO%2BZEBnrosEm7vQKkh

MD3oNu5PvcPl8jbMyA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBM6sTZ_pZh



About $140 of your money. HDMI video but touch goes in on USB. No external circuitry

and the cable are not plugged in at the edge. I know nothing more about them except what

is in the above URL. They do make 7" Plug and play on the pi, I do not know about the

second monster but, I have been told that the pic can be spread across both. The skin

would have to be reworked. The one you sent is much better. Not sold on Amazon or ebay.

I want to keep the cost down for now. You have told me about the store and I went there before.

I have one cheap keyboard to start. Used RBp 4 with a large heat sink that covers the

top of the whole pi 4 4GB and a sound card that I showed you. I have a pedalboard from a

Baldwin or a Hammond, they would have MIDI added.



I am in volume 2 of Bill Skees book and wanted to try some of what he has there. I get a sound

error, probably due to updates:

ERROR Device "Java Sound Synthesizer" is not available. Sound



Is there an easy fix? No need to spend a lot of time on it.



Thank you, ƒg



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From JohnR on 2022-11-27 20:38 NEWEST POST



Freeman,



The touchscreen you have in mind looks good, but I am no expert in such things. The spec. says

that it is "unbranded", which suggests that if you want a second one in the future, you may have

trouble getting an identical one. Unfortunately, if there are no reviews (and even if there are

some!), there is often a risk involved in making the purchase.



Your question about a sound error suggests to me that you are trying to use the "Example"

disposition in the jOrgan folder. It does not surprise me if it no longer gives sound. Java has

certainly moved on since that disposition was created.



Best wishes,

JohnR



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